Thread: Arabic word for "stick" or "staff"?

I have tried all sorts of combinations of Arabic letters and reverse (English) lookups, but I can't find "tahtib" in my Arabic-English dictionary. Can anybody post the Arabic spelling for this word? Thanks!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I have tried all sorts of combinations of Arabic letters and reverse (English) lookups, but I can't find "tahtib" in my Arabic-English dictionary. Can anybody post the Arabic spelling for this word? Thanks!

تحطيب

But I don't think tahtib translates as stick or staff...off to look it up myself...

تحطيب
(ta, Ha, Taa, ya, ba)

Tahtiib is the name of the martial art or game, the word for the stick that is used is asaya (ein, saad, alif, ya, ta marbuta).

Well, it's nice to know I'm not totally incompetent in Arabic! تحطيب isn't in my dictionary, which would explain why I couldn't find it there. I had always heard عصاية defined as "cane," as in the smaller, crooked stick that women usually dance with. I've never heard the larger man's prop called anything but تحطيب, but there seems to be some confusion (at least where I live) about what you call the prop when a woman dances with a little, straight stick. Is that تحطيب or عصاية? Does it depend on the size of the stick or the style of the dance?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Well, it's nice to know I'm not totally incompetent in Arabic! تحطيب isn't in my dictionary, which would explain why I couldn't find it there. I had always heard عصاية defined as "cane," as in the smaller, crooked stick that women usually dance with. I've never heard the larger man's prop called anything but تحطيب, but there seems to be some confusion (at least where I live) about what you call the prop when a woman dances with a little, straight stick. Is that تحطيب or عصاية? Does it depend on the size of the stick or the style of the dance?

As far as I know, the stick is asa or assaya, whether it's straight or crooked, and whether it's a man or a woman dancing with it. Tahtib is the name of the martial art, not the name of the stick.

Tourbeau, tahtib is the contest itself, the event. It is not an item or an object, it is the martial arts competition. To call a stick a tahtib is incorrect; to call dancing with a stick tahtib is incorrect. Fighting with a stick, for points, in rural Egypt? Tahtib!

Assaya is the stick itself. In the competition, it is around 5 feet long, in folkloric dance is is maybe...3 feet long? The same word is used for the stick--with a crook or not--that a woman (or man) would dance with on a stage. I have never heard another term used for the dance cane, and I am pulling from multiple sources both in and out of Egypt.

Nisaa, habibti, we'll just tag team this one for a while, eh?! ;)

Originally Posted by Monica

Nisaa, habibti, we'll just tag team this one for a while, eh?! ;)

I was gonna say...get out of my brain!!!! ..g.:

..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by princessisabella

..l;,..l;,..l;,

Heh.

Hey Isabella, I have a question. I have been taught that assaya can mean any kind of stick or staff. So, a person who is walking with a cane to help them be mobile...assaya. A baton twirler leading a marching band...assaya.

True?

If so, what about sticks on the ground, say after a windy day, that have fallen from a tree?

Thanks for indulging me. ;)

This is the reasoning I was taught: "Men (e.g., Tito) dance 'raqs al tahtib' and women dance 'raqs al assaya', and if the stick that the women dance with is 'assaya', then that must make the larger stick that men dance with 'tahtib.'" It sounds like this is wrong, and that it has to do with the style of the dance ("tahtib" = "aggressive"), and not the shape or size of the prop. I suppose this sort of mistake isn't surprising, since there is a lot of misinformation floating around the MED community, especially regarding the Arabic language--and particularly in parts of the US where there are very few workshop-quality instructors or immigrants from the Middle East.

I suppose the next question is should it be pronounced "al TaHtib" or "aT-TaHtib"?

Maybe it will help to stop thinking of the tahtib as a dance? Tahtib is not a dance. When dancers dance with a stick they might choose to *mimic* tahtib, but they are not *doing* tahtib. And men can dance raqs al assaya, women can (I suppose) play tahtib.

You can perform raqs al assaya solo, but you cannot play tahtib solo.


Edited to add: In playing tahtib, there is not always a strike. I believe that players get points based on technique and certain skill. It would be great if someone here knew the finer points of how to win at the game of tahtib!

TaH-TEEB, I believe.

The tahtib shouldn't be considered a dance...it's a martial art. And it's done by men.

Raqs assaya is a dance now performed by both men and women. While there might be some stylistic differences between male and female performers, raqs assaya is raqs assaya, whether it's a man or woman performing it.

There's a thread floating around about this somewhere, I think...

Monica! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! JINX!

Originally Posted by Monica

Heh.

Hey Isabella, I have a question. I have been taught that assaya can mean any kind of stick or staff. So, a person who is walking with a cane to help them be mobile...assaya. A baton twirler leading a marching band...assaya.

True?

If so, what about sticks on the ground, say after a windy day, that have fallen from a tree?

Thanks for indulging me. ;)

Hi Monica,

Yes Assaya(عصاية) is the arabic word for stick. A piece of wood or little stick on the ground would be called a Oud, or a oud Khashebعود خشب
A tree limb is a Far3( فرع)

I gotta say, though, with you and Nisaa around, I'm unnecessary. I am so impressed with you guys!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

This is the reasoning I was taught: "Men (e.g., Tito) dance 'raqs al tahtib' and women dance 'raqs al assaya', and if the stick that the women dance with is 'assaya', then that must make the larger stick that men dance with 'tahtib.'" It sounds like this is wrong, and that it has to do with the style of the dance ("tahtib" = "aggressive"), and not the shape or size of the prop. I suppose this sort of mistake isn't surprising, since there is a lot of misinformation floating around the MED community, especially regarding the Arabic language--and particularly in parts of the US where there are very few workshop-quality instructors or immigrants from the Middle East.

I suppose the next question is should it be pronounced "al TaHtib" or "aT-TaHtib"?

Men dance Raqs Al Tahtib because it is a battle dance. It's a pseudo fight.

Originally Posted by princessisabella

I gotta say, though, with you and Nisaa around, I'm unnecessary. I am so impressed with you guys!

Thanks!!!!

Gotta run and teach a private lesson now, but I'll check in later. This is a good discussion!

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Hi Monica,

Yes Assaya(عصاية) is the arabic word for stick. A piece of wood or little stick on the ground would be called a Oud, or a oud Khashebعود خشب
A tree limb is a Far3( فرع)

Thanks!! I guess I knew far3, but wondered if there was another word for little sticks on the ground. Yay! (Nerd alert: These are the ridiculous curiosities that keep me up at night.) :)

I gotta say, though, with you and Nisaa around, I'm unnecessary. I am so impressed with you guys!

Aw, you are waaaay to kind. If I learn a fraction of what I hope to with whatever life I have left, it won't be close to everything. Arabic is...hard. And wow what an inadequate word to describe the complexities! :)

It is very cool to have an Arabic speaker here, thanks for your help with my stick queries.

Thank's for clearing things up. I'm learning a lot. I learnt that in Tahtib you get points for different places you "hit" or pretend to hit on the opponents body. Is this correct?
The most points you would get for hitting the neck but stopping like an inch from the skin or something like this. I would love to hear more about it too if it's not too off topic, or maybe it has been discussed before.

This discussion has been very helpful! I have another related question, though. Years ago, I was at a workshop with Zenia (Dee Birnbaum) where she taught a feminized raqs al-tahtib as a stick duel/duet. Over the years, I have had a number of surreal conversations about how many people could perform this dance at once. I was under the impression that as a duel/duet, the choreography was limited to two performers. If you wanted to put more people on stage, then you would need to do it in pairs "fighting" each other, or as rotating group(s) of pairs fighting. Others have insisted that you could have any number of dancers "fighting" each other at once in a group.

Has anybody ever heard of this? Can you have three (or more) dancers all jabbing at each other and hitting sticks at once?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

This discussion has been very helpful! I have another related question, though. Years ago, I was at a workshop with Zenia (Dee Birnbaum) where she taught a feminized raqs al-tahtib as a stick duel/duet. Over the years, I have had a number of surreal conversations about how many people could perform this dance at once. I was under the impression that as a duel/duet, the choreography was limited to two performers. If you wanted to put more people on stage, then you would need to do it in pairs "fighting" each other, or as rotating group(s) of pairs fighting. Others have insisted that you could have any number of dancers "fighting" each other at once in a group.

Has anybody ever heard of this? Can you have three (or more) dancers all jabbing at each other and hitting sticks at once?

I'm only aware of tahtib as a duel, and it is kind of hard to imagine a sort of tahtib melee with multiple dancers. I think when you put folk traditions like this on stage, some concessions can be made to artistic license, but within reason (i.e. while staying true to the "heart" of the tradition). I could envision multiple duets/rotating pairs, though...that would look FABULOUS on stage! Has Reda or the Furqa Qawmiyya ever done anything like this?

I am only aware of it as a playful duel. It is from the pharonic times. It was taught to soldiers as an integral part of their weapons training. I would imagine that a dueling group of dancers on stage would be entertaining to see. Seeing new interpretations of traditional art forms is what keeps things interesting.

Of course the term Tahtib comes from the Arabic word for large/thick wood: Hateb(حطب)

I love bhuz, it's great to see dancers seeking/sharing info ..g.:

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Of course the term Tahtib comes from the Arabic word for large/thick wood: Hateb(حطب)

AAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is great to know! Thanks!

Nisaa

Originally Posted by Monica

Thanks!! I guess I knew far3, but wondered if there was another word for little sticks on the ground. Yay! (Nerd alert: These are the ridiculous curiosities that keep me up at night.) :)

Haha ! I knew there was a reason I liked you right off the bat. ..g.: Nerd to Nerd Connection. Trust me, I conjugate verbs for fun

Originally Posted by Monica

Aw, you are waaaay to kind. If I learn a fraction of what I hope to with whatever life I have left, it won't be close to everything. Arabic is...hard. And wow what an inadequate word to describe the complexities! :)

It is very cool to have an Arabic speaker here, thanks for your help with my stick queries.

It's way cool to meet so many smarties here. {Waves to Nisaa }

p.s. a stick on the ground is a Oud (عود)

Originally Posted by gisela

Thank's for clearing things up. I'm learning a lot. I learnt that in Tahtib you get points for different places you "hit" or pretend to hit on the opponents body. Is this correct?
The most points you would get for hitting the neck but stopping like an inch from the skin or something like this. I would love to hear more about it too if it's not too off topic, or maybe it has been discussed before.

Me too, Gisela. I'm wondering myself. {Off to call big brother}

Originally Posted by princessisabella

Me too, Gisela. I'm wondering myself. {Off to call big brother}

Can't wait to hear what you find out on this...it never occurred to me that there could be scoring with tahtib, but I guess it makes sense to determine the winner...

oh my god, I cant wait to hear about the scoring system! I'm SO going to see if there are Tahtib videos out there... of actual competitions... omg, that'd be sooo cool.

And then we'll start competitions. Tahtib'er of the year and Tahtib'er of the Univese ;)

This is the info I received. I will paste in Arabic and translate as we read:‏‏

‏اسس‏ ‏وقواعد‏ ‏لعبة‏ ‏التحطيب‏
من‏ ‏أهم‏ ‏شروط‏ ‏هذه‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏ان‏ ‏طرفيها‏ ‏يعلمان‏ ‏جيدا‏ ‏انه‏ ‏إذا‏ ‏توفي‏ ‏احدهما‏ ‏اثناء‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏نتيجة‏ ‏اي‏ ‏ضربة‏ ‏من‏ ‏الخصم‏ ‏فلا‏ ‏دية‏ ‏له ‏لأن‏ ‏هذا‏ ‏شرط‏ ‏من‏ ‏شروط‏ ‏اللعبة‏.
‏أما‏ ‏بالنسبة‏ ‏للاعب‏ ‏نفسه‏ ‏فإنه‏ ‏لايشترط‏ ‏عمر‏ ‏معين‏ ‏ولكن‏ ‏ــ‏ ‏طبعا‏ ‏ــ‏ ‏كلما‏ ‏كان‏ ‏اصغر‏ ‏سنا‏ ‏كان‏ ‏افضل‏ ‏حيث‏ ‏يكون‏ ‏اكثر‏ ‏قوة‏ ‏وشجاعة‏ ‏فضلا‏ ‏عن‏ ‏أنه‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏أن‏ ‏يكون‏ ‏مغامرا‏ ‏بطبيعته‏.
‏أما‏ ‏بالنسبة‏ ‏للوزن‏ ‏فلا‏ ‏توجد‏ ‏مقاييس‏ ‏محددة‏ ‏له‏ ‏ولكن‏ ‏الطول‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏ألا‏ ‏يقل‏ ‏عن‏ 165 ‏سم‏ .‏
تراث شعبى
Rules of Tahtib: One of the most important rules of this game is that both parties know very well that if one of them dies, there is no recompense. There will be no monetary 'Diah' paid to the deceased's family. As to the players themselves there are no set rules. Although the younger they are, the better since they would be bolder and more adventurous.
‏اصول‏ ‏لعبة‏ ‏التحطيب

‏‏ ‏اللقاء‏ ‏فيها‏ ‏يبدأ‏ ‏بإلقاء‏ ‏التحية‏ ‏بين‏ ‏اللاعبين‏ ‏ثم‏ ‏يبدأ‏ ‏اللاعبان‏ ‏في‏ ‏الدوران‏ ‏بشكل‏ ‏دائري‏ ‏حول‏ ‏بعضهما‏ ‏وبعد‏ ‏ذلك‏ ‏تبدأ‏ ‏المرحلة‏ ‏الأولي‏ ‏للمباراة‏ ‏وتسمي‏ ‏الرش‏
‏وهي‏ ‏فترة‏ ‏لاتتعدي‏ ‏دقيقتين‏ ‏لجس‏ ‏نبض‏ ‏كل‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏لشجاعة‏ ‏الآخر‏
‏حيث‏ ‏يتم‏ ‏فيها‏ ‏تطويع‏ ‏أو‏ ‏وضع‏ ‏عصا‏ ‏كل‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏فوق‏ ‏عصا‏ ‏خصمه‏
‏بشرط‏ ‏أن‏ ‏يكون‏ ‏الجانب‏ ‏الأيمن‏ ‏لكل‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏متجها‏ ‏الي‏ ‏داخل‏ ‏الدائرة‏.
‏ثم‏ ‏تبدأ‏ ‏العصا‏ ‏في‏ ‏الدوران‏.
Guidelines for the game: The meeting begins with a greeting and both players begin to circle each other. The first part, called Raesh, begins This part cannot exceed two min. where each player feels out his opp. Each player puts his 3asa' on his opp. Each player's right side must face the circle.
‏‏ ‏قواعد‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏

‏

‏ ‏يمسك‏ ‏اللاعب‏ ‏بالعصا‏ ‏بحيث‏ ‏يوضع‏ ‏طرفها‏ ‏في‏ ‏باطن‏ ‏اليد‏ ‏حتي‏ ‏يتمكن‏ ‏منها‏.
‏ويستطيع‏ ‏أي‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏محترف‏ ‏أن‏ ‏يتعرف‏ ‏علي‏ ‏مدي‏ ‏مهارة‏ ‏خصمه‏ ‏من‏ ‏خلال‏ ‏طريقة‏ ‏مسكته‏ ‏للعصا‏ ‏وقبضته‏ ‏عليها‏.
‏وجسد‏ ‏اللاعب‏ ‏به‏ ‏مناطق‏ ‏للدفاع‏ ‏وأخري‏ ‏للهجوم‏ ‏تسمي‏ ‏كل‏ ‏منها‏ ‏بـــ‏ ‏الباب‏ ‏بمعني‏ ‏انها‏ ‏هي‏ ‏التي‏ ‏تفتح‏ ‏الفرصة‏ ‏للخصم‏ ‏للهجوم‏ ‏او‏ ‏تغلق‏ ‏عليه‏ ‏في‏ ‏الدفاع‏ ‏مثل‏ ‏باب‏ ‏الصدر‏ ‏وباب‏ ‏الخصر‏ ‏وباب‏ ‏الابطين‏ ‏ومسموح‏ ‏في‏ ‏هذه‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏بتوجيه‏ ‏الضرب‏ ‏بالعصا‏ ‏إلي‏ ‏أي‏ ‏مكان‏ ‏فيما‏ ‏عدا‏ ‏منطقة‏ ‏الحوض‏ ‏وتحسب‏ ‏نقاط‏ ‏الفوز‏ ‏بكل‏ ‏ضربة‏ ‏تصل‏ ‏الي‏ ‏جسد‏ ‏الخصم‏ ‏وتؤثر‏ ‏فيه‏.
‏أما‏ ‏منطقة‏ ‏الرأس‏ ‏فهي‏ ‏من‏ ‏المناطق‏ ‏التي‏ ‏يحاول‏ ‏كل‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏تجنبها‏ ‏لأن‏ ‏الضربة‏ ‏فيها‏ ‏تكون‏ ‏هي‏ ‏الضربة‏ ‏القاضية‏.
‏واذا‏ ‏جاءت‏ ‏لأحد‏ ‏اللاعبين‏ ‏ضربة‏ ‏في‏ ‏رأسه‏ ‏وتوفي‏ ‏علي‏ ‏أثرها‏ ‏فلاتوجد‏ ‏دية‏ ‏له‏.‏
‏‏
‏Each player holds his stick by putting it's tip in his palm. Any skilled player can tell his opp skill by the way he holds his stick. Each players body has points of defense and points of attack. Each point is called a Bab, i.e. door. It opens the way for the opp to attack or closes a defense just like a door. In this game any place is open for attach except the pelvis/ Each point is counted by each hit that affects the opp. The head is to be avoided by both players because it would be the final blow.And if a player is killed there is no Diah.‏ ‏

‏وأهم‏ ‏هذه‏ ‏الشروط‏ ‏ان‏ ‏يكون‏ ‏اللاعب‏ ‏مرتديا‏ ‏الزي‏ ‏الرسمي‏ ‏للعبة‏ ‏والمعبر‏ ‏عن‏ ‏أصلها‏ ‏وهو‏ ‏الجلباب‏ ‏والعمة‏ ‏والتي‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏أن‏ ‏تكون‏ ‏بيضاء‏ ‏وهذا‏ ‏هو‏ ‏الشكل‏ ‏الفلكلوري‏ ‏للاعب‏
‏فضلا‏ ‏عن‏ ‏توافر‏ ‏معزوفات‏ ‏موسيقية‏ ‏وايقاعية‏ ‏خاصة‏ ‏لتعبر‏ ‏عن‏ ‏منشأ‏ ‏هذه‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏والثقافة‏ ‏المنتمية‏ ‏إليها‏ ‏لذلك‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏أن‏ ‏يصاحب‏ ‏المباراة‏ ‏عزف‏ ‏موسيقي‏ ‏علي‏ ‏الربابة‏ ‏والطبلة‏ ‏والنقرزان‏ ‏وهذا‏ ‏العزف‏ ‏يزيد‏ ‏من‏ ‏شجاعة‏ ‏اللاعبين‏ ‏وتشجيع‏ ‏المتفرجين‏ ‏ايضا‏.‏‏

An important rule is every player has to wear the traditonal Galabya and 3ema(head wrap) Must be white in color. Music and beat are important both for the player and audience.
‏ ‏الحكام‏

‏‏ ‏لاعبي‏ ‏التحطيب‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏أن‏ ‏يوجد‏ ‏بينهما‏ ‏حكم‏ ‏يفهم‏ ‏اصول‏ ‏اللعبة‏ ‏جيدا‏ ‏ليحسب‏ ‏النقاط‏ ‏التي‏ ‏يحققها‏ ‏كل‏ ‏لاعب‏.
‏بالاضافة‏ ‏الي‏ ‏أهمية‏ ‏دوره‏ ‏إذا‏ ‏اصيب‏ ‏لاعب‏ ‏اثناء‏ ‏المباراة‏ ‏اصابة‏ ‏قاتلة‏
‏او‏ ‏اصابة‏ ‏يمكن‏ ‏أن‏ ‏تتسبب‏ ‏له‏ ‏في‏ ‏عاهة‏ ‏مستديمة‏
‏فإنه‏ ‏لابد‏ ‏في‏ ‏الوقت‏ ‏المناسب‏ ‏ان‏ ‏يطلق‏ ‏كلمة‏ ‏سو‏ ‏بصوت‏ ‏جهوري‏ ‏يشبه‏ ‏الصرخة‏ ‏لإيقاف‏ ‏اللعب‏.‏
‏
‏‏There must be judges who know the game well and can count all points. Also important in case a player is mortally wounded. He must then call out Soo in a very loud voice to stop the game.

Originally Posted by Monica

Aw, you are waaaay to kind. If I learn a fraction of what I hope to with whatever life I have left, it won't be close to everything. Arabic is...hard. And wow what an inadequate word to describe the complexities! :)

It is very cool to have an Arabic speaker here, thanks for your help with my stick queries.

I feel the same way about learning Arabic - how do you native speakers do it?? ..l;,
And thanks for posting the details about the tahtib rules. As for videos, I think it was on orientaldancer.net that Tarik (of NYC) posted a number of videos of tahtib competitions. Worth searching for it, but I need to get some sleep...