Thread: Will studying MSA ruin my ability to speak Egyptian dialect?

Over the past couple of years, I've been studying Egyptian dialect. My focus has been on conversational Arabic rather than on reading. Although I still consider myself to be very much a beginner in my ability to speak Arabic, I do know enough to do stuff like negotiate cab fare or ask directions in Arabic when I go to Cairo.

I'm now thinking of working with audio CD's to start learning MSA. But here's my question... if I start studying MSA, will I lose my ability to put sentences together in Egyptian dialect? Will I suddenly start sounding like a newscaster?

What has the experience been like for others who have studied first a regional dialect and then later MSA?

I am not anywhere near fluent myself, but I have had a little of both. No, it will not affect your ability to go between dialects, any more than studying Shakespeare interferes with one's ability to understand Snoop Dogg. The academic form of a language often bears little resemblance to what comes out of regular folks' mouths, no matter which language it is, and fluency in Arabic, in particular, demands some minimal proficiency in more than one dialect.

Any educated person (native speaker or otherwise) who knows Arabic understands MSA. If learning it were such a hindrance to fluency, colleges would not demand you learn it as part of a larger program. In other words, getting past the "knowing enough to limp along in Cairo" stage means knowing some MSA and some ECA, so you may as well learn MSA, since it gives you a leg up on the other colloquial dialects (moreso than ECA does). Actually, at some point, fluency in Arabic also requires some Quranic Arabic, so throw that on the "to do" list, too.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Will I suddenly start sounding like a newscaster?

What's wrong with sounding like a newscaster? Newscasters are widely understood--that's why they don't have some illiterate fellah broadcasting the news. Unless you are one-in-a-million gifted, as soon as you open your mouth, you have given away that you're not a native speaker. You may as well sound like one who used a book. Don't worry about sounding stuffy. You can always dumb down what you say by using bad grammar, wrong pronunciations, mis-defined words, and mangled idioms, like everybody else who's ever tried to speak a language that wasn't their native tongue. Unless you are dealing with a hostile jerk, most people are capable of processing the idea of a foreigner learning the academic form of their language from a textbook, and they will be sympathetic to your desire to be understood.

I agree with Tourbeau. Just do it. It'll help you understand even the ECA better.

If you come to Cairo and use words strictly Fusha, the people on the streets might smile or laugh a little, but what's the problem with that. Your Arabic is in many cases better than their English. If I ware in your situation (learning Fusha and still aiming to be a lot in Egypt) I'd propably consider to have a few classes or talk with a well educated person, who can point out the words and expressions which can be used in Aumeija and which are purely Fusha. That way you'll learn in the beginnig where each words etc belong. I'd think that would be useful.

But any case, just learn :)

MSA will help you with the dialects not hinder you IMO.

Because the dialects are not as far off from MSA as people think at first. Once you get deeper and deeper into this language, you'll start to see that...

I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but I tend to think of MSA as the Arabic equivalent of the German Hochdeutsch (High German). Hochdeutsch isn't the native dialect in any region, but it's taught in the schools and everybody understands it. I grew up in the U.S. learning my grandmother's dialect of German (it was her first language), and in college I learned Hochdeutsch in the classroom. I usually speak my grandmother's dialect when I go to Germany or Austria because it's fun to fool the locals into thinking I'm a native speaker for the first 30-60 seconds, until I start making grammatical mistakes and groping for vocabulary. (I'm NOT suggesting that I would EVER fool Arabic speakers into thinking it's my first language - I know THAT will never happen. I can fool Germans because I'm half German and look it. I do NOT look like an Arab.) However, when I go to Switzerland I speak Hochdeutsch instead of my grandmother's dialect because I can't understand Swiss German and I want to "signal" to the Swiss that I'm a foreigner who wouldn't understand the local dialect. So, from my experiences in learning German as a second language I know that I am capable of differentiating between dialects and using the one that suits my purpose of the moment, provided I spend enough studying to really understand what I'm doing.

I do see how MSA can have value since I'm familiar with another language that has a somewhat similar concept. I'm just trying to figure how how soon in my Arabic studies I should start learning MSA, considering that my primary use of Arabic at this point in time will be conversational rather than literary.

Of course, even if I use a regional dialect it'll be obvious I'm speaking with a foreigner's accent and I fully realize that. I guess I'm thinking I'd rather sound like a foreigner who knows a little about the various nuances of the language than sound like a foreigner who only knows what's in a textbook.

The standard college protocol, even with serious immersion programs like Middlebury, is always to learn MSA first and dialects second. I suspect this is partially due to the logistics. Most textbooks that teach how to read and write Arabic script are MSA books, and no self-respecting program is going to skip reading and writing. Furthermore, many of the textbooks that go into the linguistic variations of the dialects are only vocalized when they need to be for clarity, because they assume you're an upperclassman and you can already read unvocalized text by the point you're using them. Actually, even the "Alif Baa/Al-Kitaab" series pulls the rug out from under you with the vocalization markings pretty promptly. (They rationalize that real Arabs don't use the confetti around the text in everyday writing, so deal with it.)

Getting to any serious level of fluency in Arabic is a long haul--longer than many languages. I took Russian in college, and the dirty little (not very well kept) secret was that the average student doing well in the major (B's or higher) was rarely better than a "1+" or a "2-" on the State Department's five-point scale when they graduated, unless they had spent every summer in an immersion program, and even then, they were stellar if they got above a "2+." Arabic is more complicated by dialect issues than Russian is, so what does that mean? It usually says that someone coming out of college with a Bachelor's Degree in Arabic is still just barely functioning, and that's with four years of MSA and two years of ECA in a decent program. (Just for reference, the State Department scale weighs cultural knowledge heavier as you go up in ranking. To get to a "5," you have to have mastered so much that you'd be able to go under deep cover as an operative with no one ever suspecting you weren't a native. You not only have to be able to reproduce the speech like a native, but you have to be able to reference nursery rhymes, out-of-date slang, commercial jingles, and all sorts of obscure mental detritus you'd only know if you'd grown up there. In other words, almost no one ever scores a "5.")

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I guess I'm thinking I'd rather sound like a foreigner who knows a little about the various nuances of the language than sound like a foreigner who only knows what's in a textbook.

You're going to be able to do that even with MSA. They'll cover obvious things like jeem and qaaf pronunciation, splitting "mish" to negate verbs, etc., and you've already had some phrasebook/idiom training. Personally, I think it is very hard to learn dialect only, unless you are in an immersion program. Any good MSA sequence is going to talk about significant dialect issues, and the "Alif Baa/Al-Kitaab" textbooks, for example, lean pretty hard on Egyptian for their dialogue exercises, although they make a point of keeping regional variations part of the learning process.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It usually says that someone coming out of college with a Bachelor's Degree in Arabic is still just barely functioning, and that's with four years of MSA and two years of ECA in a decent program. (Just for reference, the State Department scale weighs cultural knowledge heavier as you go up in ranking. To get to a "5," you have to have mastered so much that you'd be able to go under deep cover as an operative with no one ever suspecting you weren't a native. You not only have to be able to reproduce the speech like a native, but you have to be able to reference nursery rhymes, out-of-date slang, commercial jingles, and all sorts of obscure mental detritus you'd only know if you'd grown up there. In other words, almost no one ever scores a "5.")

Then it's just as well I don't aspire to go under deep cover as an operative.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Then it's just as well I don't aspire to go under deep cover as an operative.

Yeah, I think it's probably pretty hard to break into the Muslim Brotherhood incognito as an American woman.

Seriously, there were college kids in my Arabic 101 class who thought they were going to be shoe ins for State Department jobs after a year or two of MSA, and sometimes when they were talking about it before class, it was very hard not to laugh at how naive they were. If you were inclined to want a Cold-War-era Russian translating job with the government (when I was in college), you were lucky if you'd get a job offer with less than a Master's, and even then, you were usually turned back around and cycled into Middlebury or the DLI for more education before they felt you were competent to do any real work.

I know you are not looking for that level of Arabic fluency, but no matter what dialect you choose, it's still a long road, especially with conversation skills. With a few years of MSA, you'd at least have a good head start on the written stuff, but being able to process full-speed native speech and kick back sensible, grammatically stable responses in real time takes a lot of learning and practice, and unless you have someone to converse with (e.g., a tutor or friend who's a native speaker), it takes a huge commitment to see much progress. Arabic just isn't an easy language to teach yourself.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I know you are not looking for that level of Arabic fluency, but no matter what dialect you choose, it's still a long road, especially with conversation skills.

Yeah, I have a realistic picture of what it takes to learn a language. I hold a bachelor's degree in French, 3 years of university-level coursework in German as well as tutoring from my grandmother when I was a child, and 2 years of university-level Spanish. I know what my ability to participate was like when attending a business meeting conducted entirely in German, and I know what my skills/limitations were when attending a weeklong belly dance retreat taught entirely in German, and attended by Germans who spoke little to no English. I know how much I comprehend when watching a television show that's entirely in Spanish. I know what my skills and limitations are when carrying on a conversation in French. None of it would qualify me for a State Department job, but then I'm not interested in applying for a State Department job.

From what I know of Arabic so far, it's not any harder than any of the other languages I have studied. Yes, its grammatical structure is different from these other languages, but that doesn't make it more difficult, just different.

As for Arabic, I'm just giving myself permission to learn at whatever pace is practical with my current lifestyle. Could I learn faster if I moved to Cairo for a year and took intensive coursework at AUC? Of course. But other things occupy a higher priority in my life.

I'm satisfied with the level of progress I've made, considering the constraints under which I have studied so far. And I will continue to learn what I can, as time and opportunity permit.

I'd rather learn a little through self-study than learn nothing by feeling too intimidated to try.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Yeah, I think it's probably pretty hard to break into the Muslim Brotherhood incognito as an American woman.

Tourbeau, I think I love you...

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'd rather learn a little through self-study than learn nothing by feeling too intimidated to try.

& those of us learning at a similar pace really appreciate your reviews & the fact that you share your hunt for good material ..g.:

I don't think MSA will ruin your ability to speak colloquially. But in my experience there has been a lot of interference. I started with MSA young (19) and in a university environment. It went deep! When I decided to go over to Egyptian, I made a lot of mistakes using MSA vocabulary and pronunciation...it was what I had to draw from when I could not remember a word. And I still do that, all the dang time. I work with a tutor now (just twice a month, an Egyptian native speaker who also knows MSA at a scholarly level, knows many other dialect, is educated on the history of Arabic language patterns, and is an all around fabulous smarty pants in myriad ways!). Every time we are together I make a mistake of using MSA instead of Egyptian at least once.

It is not a huge deal, and it does not limit me from being understood, but it is personally frustrating. I have accepted it as part of the chaos of language. :) Frankly in my experience as a language learner and as a language teacher (I teach English as a Second Language to adults), being willing to make mistakes and then keep trying is the best way to keep growing and learning.

So no, it won't ruin your ability, but in my experience it will definitely interfere. Shira, can you read and write Arabic yet? That literacy is what I value most from my MSA years. I can read anything (even if I can't understand it all).

Shira, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from learning Arabic. I'm merely saying that it is more difficult for an English speaker to learn some foreign languages than others, and if you (the general "you," not "you, Shira") approach it thinking it will be like your I-barely-have-to-think-about-this-to-get-an-A, high-school Spanish class, you'll be in for an unfortunate surprise. I know that you, Shira, are an intelligent, articulate person, and your previous foreign language experience does facilitate learning additional languages, so I am not trying to comment on your personal abilities, but rather, to address general issues with Arabic study.

For anyone, there is a big jump from learning English in grade school to adjusting your mind as an adult to a new way of parsing letters and a new system of grammatical organization, and the more different this other language is than English, the more mental effort is involved in making that jump successfully. If you wobbled through grammar classes in school, barely knowing the difference between a preposition and a predicate, then hang onto your hat, because you're not going to come to any satisfying mastery of a language that depends on an understanding of how to decline nouns by memorizing "Take me to the store...take me to the hotel...take me to the airport."

I think there is also an aspect of pronunciation with Arabic that many English-speaking students struggle with. If you weren't exposed to the opportunity to hear and replicate certain sounds as a child (e.g., ghayn), learning them in adult life can take dedicated practice. Arabic, in particular, seems to be highly dependent on generating the sounds in the right parts of the mouth and throat, and if someone is concerned about sounding foreign or funny when speaking with natives, then having a trained teacher or comparably aware native speaker as a coach is invaluable for preventing one from sounding like they have a substantial speech impediment in the new language.

OTOH, if you consider yourself a person of median or higher intelligence, you are statistically smarter than half of the population already speaking Arabic, and they managed to learn it. It's just a language. Linguistic constructs that are challenging to grasp are usually offset by advantages of simplicity in other areas. Ultimately, it comes down to the degree of skill you consider "fluent." If you want to be able to negotiate at the traveler's level, this is a different standard than if you want to conduct business or do academic research in Arabic, where "just getting the gist of things" isn't always sufficient. Bhuz serves dancers with a wide range of objectives and experience, and I don't know who else is reading this thread.

Shira:

Hate to speak off subject, but they actually DO speak Hochdeutsch in Northern Germany. It has officially taken over the old and outdated Plattdeutsch and related dialect and has for a couple of decades now.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you wobbled through grammar classes in school, barely knowing the difference between a preposition and a predicate, then hang onto your hat

This was definitely an issue for me in studying French, German, and Spanish at the university level. It is indeed one of the challenging things about learning a second language.

That said, one of the things I liked about the conversational approach of the Pimsleur lessons is that they teach you how to use the language correctly but without requiring you to be familiar with terms like "indirect object" or "subjective case". As they point out in their marketing propaganda, small children learn to speak their native tongue without being able to recite the grammatical rules that they're using.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I think there is also an aspect of pronunciation with Arabic that many English-speaking students struggle with. If you weren't exposed to the opportunity to hear and replicate certain sounds as a child (e.g., ghayn), learning them in adult life can take dedicated practice. Arabic, in particular, seems to be highly dependent on generating the sounds in the right parts of the mouth and throat.

This issue also applies to Americans who are learning French and German. Arabic isn't the only language that contains sounds that are unfamiliar to native English speakers.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Ultimately, it comes down to the degree of skill you consider "fluent." If you want to be able to negotiate at the traveler's level, this is a different standard than if you want to conduct business or do academic research in Arabic, where "just getting the gist of things" isn't always sufficient.

I agree, there are different levels of fluency. And I agree, a key question is, "What do you want to use the language for?"

Very good discussion! Having taken MSA at college level for 2 years and then Egyptian Dialect from native speakers in various courses here and in Egypt, I agree totally with Tourbeau. I studied Egyptian dialect for 2 years (2 sessions per month) and then studied MSA for 2 subsequent years while continuing the Egyptian dialect lessons. Often, the MSA grammar helped explain some of the constructions and underlying meanings of words, sentences, etc. in Egyptian dialect. I found the MSA to be very useful both for grammar and reading and writing Arabic script, so I'd like to add one more vote for the value of learning MSA.

Like Monica, I sometimes can only think of an MSA word for something and will substitute that in my conversations (which are very elementary) with Arabs. They understand what i'm trying to say and often tell me how to say it in Egyptian dialect.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you wobbled through grammar classes in school, barely knowing the difference between a preposition and a predicate, then hang onto your hat, because you're not going to come to any satisfying mastery of a language that depends on an understanding of how to decline nouns by memorizing "Take me to the store...take me to the hotel...take me to the airport."

Anecdote: I have always had a good grasp of English grammatical rules. Then I learned Spanish in high school. Preterite and Imperfect kind of made my head spin, but I understood it after a couple days.

Then I tried learning Czech and noun and adjective and verb declension and conjugation. Oh sweet goodness that language is complicated.

I hear Arabic is even more difficult. But I'm still gonna give it a try!