Thread: So what is beauty then??

Hello ladies, apologies in advance for this not being a particularly MED related thread but it is very beauty related so hopefully this is the right place to put it.

Trying to keep things brief here because I tend to ramble. But a bit of background first:

One of the main areas of our photography business is Boudoir photography. This is tasteful portraiture of women, usually not wearing very much, but with grace and dignity. It is my objective to bring out the beauty in every woman that comes in for a shoot. And we are always successful. We use flattering lighting, good makeup, great photographers and sometimes do a little airbrushing (which is a topic for another thread altogether, let's stick to the point I am actually about to make lol!). But we find that the beauty is not in how they look somehow, but what they are projecting. And that although evry single last one of htem has issues of some sort, we don't see them as issues most of the time and they are gorgeous with those perceived defects.

I have a facial feature that I despise. It's my biggest issue ever. I hate it. I started down the road of cosmetic surgery because I would qualify for free surgery on the NHS because it is a jaw alignment problem (giving me goofy teeth and an extremely huge smile lol!). But it would have involved spending 18 months in braces (what do you call them again in the US? Retainers?) to prepare the teeth for the op. Then the operation where they do things that would make you faint if you were watching. Then 8 weeks in a head brace. Then a further 18 months in retainers to align the teeth properly. Believe me, if I had this done I would be incredibly gorgeous - I did the airbrushing to see what I would look like a few years back. But then ... and now I come to my point ... I looked at famous people that I admire and who are gorgeous without being conventionally beautiful. I took heart, thought to myself, well, I did OK so far, I frighten children occasionally but that's about it lol! And these people all have issues and are fabulously gorgeous in their own unique ways. And they've done alright too.

So come on girls (and guys) - bring me your issues and your suggestions of non-classically-beautiful people that you personally find beautiful and let's all get realistic about what beauty really is and where it really comes from - within.

The "Divine Proportions of Beauty" can be found at this link if you are interested!

Facial Beauty

And some of the people who inspired me to not go ahead with the surgery:

That guy out of Aerosmith - Steve Tyler - massive grin
Barbra Streisand - massive hooter
Jennifer Aniston - small eyes and thin lips

I'll think of some more. You think of some too. It's liberating.

Kathy x

non conventional hotties:

ellen barkin:odd looking nose, prominent lips
uma thurman: patrician nose, tiny mouth, on anyone else, would look mousy
michael wincott(villain from 1492 and the crow): broken nose, prominent chin, large mouth

all these people have an innate power and charisma that makes them go beyond passable to eye catching.........in fact, in some movies they've all done, they were filmed in angles that made them purposely ugly or scary, and others where they're angelically beautiful

my own issues? big nose, downturned, deepset eyes, prominent jaw and less than perfect complexion, crooked smile...........thanks to the help of make-up advice and attitude adjustment regarding my own looks (thanks to tough friends and mentors), i TRY to play on these flaws and make them quirks instead :D

Originally Posted by ruta21030

non conventional hotties:

ellen barkin:odd looking nose, prominent lips
uma thurman: patrician nose, tiny mouth, on anyone else, would look mousy
michael wincott(villain from 1492 and the crow): broken nose, prominent chin, large mouth

all these people have an innate power and charisma that makes them go beyond passable to eye catching.........in fact, in some movies they've all done, they were filmed in angles that made them purposely ugly or scary, and others where they're angelically beautiful

my own issues? big nose, downturned, deepset eyes, prominent jaw and less than perfect complexion, crooked smile...........thanks to the help of make-up advice and attitude adjustment regarding my own looks (thanks to tough friends and mentors), i TRY to play on these flaws and make them quirks instead :D

Yay Ellen Barkin - if I were gay she would be just my type I think. Something very hot about her lol!

Wow there we go - issues aplenty! Bet none of your friends see these issues the way you do! My eyes turn down too but then so did Marilyn Monroe's!

I haven't found out a way to play on my flaws yet, I'm just at the "accepting them" stage I think.
x

Here are the classical proportions on models who are "classically" beautiful:

whoops that didn't work - will try again shortly

Cindy Crawford - alot of people tried to convince her to remove the mole. Good thing she didn't.

Lauren Hutton - You could drive a Mack truck between that gap in her teeth, but she's beautful.

My own issue is my short stumpy little legs. I wish I had long slender ones, but that ain't ever gonna happen.

Oooh yes Cindy's mole. Good one. And gappy teeth. Another good one.

If you wear clothes the way that the thin woman does on those Trinny and Susannah programmes (What Not to Wear), not sure which one is which, you can make your legs look a lot longer. And if you have your photo taken get the photographer to shoot from a lower position - instant longer legs! ..g.:

Shakira - 4'11," tiny breasts, petite all over....but never fails to top the Sexiest Women Alive charts. She is my idol.

As for issues, most of mine come from certain standards of femininity that are expected of bellydancers. In other words, that one must be soft, curvy and buxom to truly look legit. I've been told (usually by other dancers, usually those who aren't in the greatest shape) that I'm too small and too ripped, that I need to go get implants, yadda yadda....but on the flipside, clients always marvel post-gig at what bangin' shape I'm in. Soooooo....if the ones who sign the checks are raving, then I've got nothing to worry about. I'm not gonna live on Philly cheese steaks, stop going to the gym, sit on my ass and eat bonbons, and get ridiculous porno boobs because a few people are threatened by the fact that I'm different. F*ck that.

I just play up my small, athletic figure by wearing costumes with sleek lines and daring slits and cutouts....the kind of outfits my most obnoxious critics could only dream of having the chutzpah to pull off Huge stage presence helps, as well, and this is definitely a page ripped from Shakira's book!

Seriously, though, I love this thread. I think we dancers can be our own worst critics sometimes, and it's so nice to see a thread of this nature for a change. The cool thing about BD is that there's so much room for fantasy in hair, makeup and costuming that you can *create* your own glamourous image without necessarily having to be born into it. That, in and of itself, has been a most empowering and awe-inspiring revelation for me.

That Facial Beauty/Divine Proportion thing as far as I can see is just a real slick sales pitch. "Dr. Jefferson firmly believes in the concept of Divine Proportion"???!!? I'll bet the proportions of Dr. J's bank account are divine indeed.

Some variations in human appearance are so unusual or extreme, they're truly abnormal. If somebody is born with a real abnormality that makes them look like a freak and they want to get it fixed so they can have a normal social life, then they certainly should. And I suppose some variations are just on a borderline between the normal and the not normal, and then it's just got to be a personal choice. There are also normal variations that just cause real functional problems, like enormous breasts, and it's very reasonable not to want to be bothered with something like that all you life.

But the fact is, in our society we have now defined many perfectly normal and common variations in human appearance as "defects." Cosmetic surgeons are capitalizing on this and exposing people to serious risks while raking in big bucks. It's all got to be personal choice in the end, but how I wish society would resist this dreadful trend.
Rosette firmly believes in the concept of Divine Variation.

PS - Another "imperfect" looking actor I think is very attractive: Owen Wilson.

Originally Posted by Rosette

That Facial Beauty/Divine Proportion thing as far as I can see is just a real slick sales pitch. "Dr. Jefferson firmly believes in the concept of Divine Proportion"???!!? I'll bet the proportions of Dr. J's bank account are divine indeed.

...........

sales pitch? doubtful, these 'proportions' are also shown in art schools, studies, aesthetic view, etc......i remember in studying portraiture, they discussed symmetry and proportion in body and facial structure as what defined beauty over the ages................symmetry has always been a genetic indicator of 'perfection' and an attractor, which is why the 'odd' beauties stand out so much

prime example is sophia loren..........there is so much 'wrong' with her face, you figure she'd be fugly.........huge eyes that are very close set, almost bulbous....prominent nose........high, VERY prominent cheekbones, large mouth with impossibly full lips..............yet she is held up as one that women wanted to be like, and men wanted to be WITH..........AND, her beauty withstood the test of time!

elizabeth taylor? heart shaped face, cheeks that seemed pudgy sometimes, same with the chin, odd colored eyes, but even now, and even during her weight gains, lovely, classy, sensual...........

they stood out, while 'classic' beauties sometimes blend with other classic beauties........

clint eastwood, tiny, beady eyes, 'artistically' broken nose, scarred, craggy, but sexy as hell, you can't take your eyes off him......

give me imperfect symmetry any day, much more interesting........

The interesting thing is those pictures of classic beauties all kind of look alike don't they? When I receive a snarky remark from a classic beauty about my looks I just tell them "you should be thankful for people like me. If everyone looked like you, what would make *you* so freaking special?" They generally have no response to this.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Shakira - 4'11," tiny breasts, petite all over....but never fails to top the Sexiest Women Alive charts. She is my idol.

I just play up my small, athletic figure by wearing costumes with sleek lines and daring slits and cutouts....the kind of outfits my most obnoxious critics could only dream of having the chutzpah to pull off

A bit like Asena's body then perhaps? She's lean, ripped, not very curvy, but she's doing very well for herself indeed!
x

Oh dear, I haven't a clue...

I do agree that a lot of it is in the attitude.

I was thinking Sophia Loren too.

And Owen Wilson - yeah - not very classic but I wouldn't kick him out of bed.

Re the sales pitch/classical proportions thing, I think the proportions were first calculated by one of the Greek guys who was obsessed with numbers and symmetry etc BUT yes, I think we are all exploited all the time by the likes of cosmetic surgeons etc. Be young, be lean, be pretty, be ambitious, be successful, get to the top, get famous!! Why???? Cos of money. Encouraging feelings of insecurity in a potential customer base sells. Big bucks to be had. I have a book on copywriting (ad wording to you and me) that has a whole chapter on how to get sales through fear. You smell. Your breath smells. You're too fat. Your skin isn't clear enough. Blah blah blah.

I also read another thread which mentioned Heat magazine etc. Well, I know it must be awful to be papped with all your cellulite on show, but that's the territory with fame these days. The good things about the pics in mags like this is that I can show a client a pic of a star (such as Pamela Anderson, Catherine Zeta Jones or someone) with no makeup on, looking like we all do on a bad day, and then show them a pic of them in studio makeup, good lighting and a little airbrushing. It makes them feel like everyone is after all, human, with flaws, and that pretty much everyone in the media spotlight has help of some kind, whether by surgical means or not.

So why do I find Gerard Depardieu,Eric Kantona and Jimmy Nail attractive?

I admire women who look striking and interesting : Lauren Bacall, Glenda Jackson and Woophi Goldberg.

When people talk about a plastic surgeons definition of beauty I shudder. I remember that television show in the U.S. called "the Swan". No matter what he woman looked like to start with, they all looked eerily alike at the end. The same nose, the same breasts the same fake tan. Hollywood beautiful - but incredibly sad.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

As for issues, most of mine come from certain standards of femininity that are expected of bellydancers. In other words, that one must be soft, curvy and buxom to truly look legit. I've been told (usually by other dancers, usually those who aren't in the greatest shape) that I'm too small and too ripped, that I need to go get implants, yadda yadda....but on the flipside, clients always marvel post-gig at what bangin' shape I'm in. Soooooo....if the ones who sign the checks are raving, then I've got nothing to worry about. I'm not gonna live on Philly cheese steaks, stop going to the gym, sit on my ass and eat bonbons, and get ridiculous porno boobs because a few people are threatened by the fact that I'm different. F*ck that.

I don't think the latter describes the way to attain the belly dance "standard" you seem to think exists, but it sure sounds fun. It is a bit of a rude description of everyone else, though, even those who "aren't in the greatest shape" from your perspective.

Petite athletic dancers do just fine in every town I know of, and it sounds like you like yourself just how you are. So stop fretting! I also get the impression you have run across a lot of people who have felt it appropriate to comment to your face on what you "should" look like, which is surprising to me as most people recognize that as a sensitive topic (so will just talk behind your back, if at all). Or maybe I am lucky and just meet polite and kind people.

Angelina Jolie -- ridiculips (but I'd consider switching teams for her!)

Queen Latifah -- size

Grace Jones -- everything!

Bruce Willis - I don't care if he's bald & squinty and has deep parentheses marks around his mouth. That man's sexy!

Isabella Rossellini! Messed up front teeth, more interesting looking than beautiful, and sexy as hell.

Willem Dafoe. Big crush!

Kate Moss: if she was on The Swan she'd be getting an eyelift and Lovely Porcelain Veneers, and probably some kind of nose job as well.
Kristin Kreuk: crooked, fangy teeth, incredibly skinny, scoliosis.
I don't actually like her, but Paris Hilton: wonky eyes, weird droopy nose, odd bottom lip.
Nicole Ritchie: Large, fishy eyes, wonky lips, funny nose.
Rachel Hunter: Small eyes, double chin, weird bony fingers, appalling taste in clothes.

And in the officially unbeautiful league: Sarah Jessica Parker, who I personally consider the current embodiment of the term "jolie laide". Ellen Barkin and Kyra Sedgwick (who I always used to mix up): duck lips, small eyes, very sexy women nonetheless.

I think Oprah is gorgeous at every weight. Her eyes are so lovely. And Ellen DeGeneres, I can totally understand why gay girls would fall for her, again for her beautiful eyes and that kind of butchy-vulnerable thing she's got going on. Oh oh oh, and Queen Latifah is also just gorgeous. She has the most wonderful quality of warmth onscreen. Oh, and another "candidate" for an eye lift, Charlotte Rampling. She still looks bloody awesome, as does Helen Mirren.

For the chaps: I agree wholeheartedly regarding Owen Wilson. He's much prettier than Luke and it's all about that nose. I do like a man with a slightly busted face. Michael Rosenbaum's lip scar is what makes him hot, I think (well, that and the shoulders). ETA: And how did I forget Clint Eastwood? He's a bit old for me now, but GHOD he was hot in his younger days and I still think he looks pretty good. Bruce Willis, yup. He's got the sex going on.

Nick Cave, my god. He has no chin. His forehead is now a fivehead, and he's rocking that ridiculous moustache. I'd do him in a heartbeat. I'd also do Tom Waits in a heartbeat, except for how Kathleen Brennan would totally whup my arse. (I have no fear of Susie Bick, though.)

Originally Posted by Monica

I don't think the latter describes the way to attain the belly dance "standard" you seem to think exists, but it sure sounds fun.

Hahahaha...by noooooooo means would I consider the Philly Cheesesteak Diet normal or advisable. It is, however, the only way I personally can manage pack on more than 2-3 lbs. that immediately get burned off .

This isn't the time or place to elaborate on my personal experiences....but I just wanted to clarify that one for the records. I'd hate to be responsible for a collective uprising of Bhuz's cholesterol count, as delightful as a cheesesteak binge does sound.

Back to the topic at hand .p::

fivehead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEE! gAwd woman you crack me up.

i'd say Cher

This is interesting. I saw a young man the other day with a very distorted face, birth anomaly of some sort. I found his face so pleasant to look at for some reason and found myself wondering why we don't all look like that?

I really like Joe Strummer (RIP)--jacked up teeth, weak chin, pasty, receding hairline.

Also, Billy Bragg--I think because I like his politics and I just find him adorable. Weak chin, beaky nose...sort of looks like a cleaned up British chimney sweep.

Shia Le Beouf--big nose, weak chin, droopy eyes--hot as heck, too.

James Hetfield from Metallica (fang teeth, craggy face, bad fashion choices sometimes), but that voice...OMG.

As for the ladies...

I think Oprah is absolutely beautiful--like Zum said, at any size.

Tina Fey (my hubs told me I'm toast if she ever shows up at the door wanting to hang out)

Hmmm....

Christopher Walken. A very commanding and thin, weird-looking man.

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/50970...4831B75F48EF45


Elijah Wood. Giant eyes, looks best as Frodo I think.

http://www.informationen-bilder.de/d...o-auenland.jpg

Whoever played the young Constantine; unfortunate that he morphed into Keanu Reeves. Oh, his name is Connor Dylan Wryn:

Connor Dylan Wryn


Ewan McGregor's smile.

http://www.poster.net/mcgregor-ewan/...or-6206874.jpg


Janeane Garafalo.

http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/...-garofalo1.jpg

Ellen Muth.

http://www.spock.com/i/TR1ljovyG/Ellen-Muth.jpg

Kristen Johnson.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/232/4...972c88.jpg?v=0

My own issue: I am big. Not fat, just take up a lot of space! I'd also like a smaller tum. Even so, I think I have a very silent-movie-star look.

I prefer unusual beauty over classic ones. Pretty faces are often a dime a dozen, but someone interesting will stand out.

But most importantly it's what comes from the inside: a mixture of attitude, joy, confidence, warmth, pride and charizma.

You can take a woman with assymetrical features, something is too big, too small, etc, all kinds of "problems" but with the right attitude she'll win them all. Without it, she'll have self esteem issues.

I got told I looked like Sophie Dahl last night. The woman in question was a nutter, but it was still flattering.

I recently was told I looked like <blerg> Alanis Morrisette.

Boo.