Thread: Should we buy belly dance apparel from China?

This came up at Rakkasah and I thought Bhuzzers might have some interesting insights. Belly dance hip scarfs and costumes made in China seem to be flooding the market. Do a search on ebay, and a ton of costumes for under $200 come up from sellers in Hong Kong.

I can't comment on the quality for all the merchandise, but a lot of what I have seen from China is terrible quality. (Of course, I have seen some terrible quality merchandise from Egypt too.)

Should we, as dancers, choose to support vendors and businesses who sell items made in Egypt? Or should we shop with who has the best price (assuming quality being even)?

I guess, after seeing women in Cairo making costumes and hipscarves and seeing the mind-blowing poverty, I wonder if cheaper knock offs from China will undermine their few chances to earn a livelihood?

So, do we "buy Egyptian" or face the reality of global commerce? Is it ethical, not ethical? Where do you stand? What do you think?

I have made a personal choice to buy belly dance costumes only from "the lands of dance" - Egypt, Turkey, the Levant, and other parts of North Africa. (In particular, I think of the Levant and non-Egypt North Africa as sources for certain folkloric costumes.) I actually made this choice a long time ago when costumes from India started flooding the market.

Others may follow their own conscience, but I like the idea of helping people in Egypt and Turkey make their livelihood, kind of as a way of giving something back to the culture that gave us this dance form.

I don't think it's unethical, per se, to buy costumes made in China or India. I just prefer to proactively support the people who come from the same culture as the dance.

I'm personally against buying anything from China after the pet food scandal and the recent milk/baby formula scandal.
Poor quality merchandise and no ethical sense along with no regulation. People forget that there is a reason laws were passed to regulate capitalism.

you pay for what you get. the hip scarves from china are cheap but the coins and beads come out easily. it's dangerous if everyone is dancing barefoot. but there are students who like to just have a cheap one especially when they first start learning and don't mind the quality one bit.

Originally Posted by catwomyn

I'm personally against buying anything from China after the pet food scandal and the recent milk/baby formula scandal.
Poor quality merchandise and no ethical sense along with no regulation. People forget that there is a reason laws were passed to regulate capitalism.

i agree that the people who made bad food on purpose to make money are unethical, but you cannot not assume that all merchandise have poor quality. i remember chatting to a businessmen on the flight from LA to hongkong and this man said he traveled often to china because the quality is much better than for example mexico which is much closer to the states and even with the shipping cost is still lower. this man is in garment. in fact, a lot of big fashion house such as marc jacobs bcbg anna sui max mara they have factories in china.

there are also many more honest people than evil ones. if every country ban china completely what about the good people? do they have to be punished too? so there are drive by shootings and people carry guns in the street in the states, may i assume that USA is very dangerous and no tourists should go there?

Originally Posted by catwomyn

I'm personally against buying anything from China after the pet food scandal and the recent milk/baby formula scandal.
Poor quality merchandise and no ethical sense along with no regulation. People forget that there is a reason laws were passed to regulate capitalism.

I tend to agree with this.

I would not hesitate for a second to pay more for my bellydance toys if I knew that (at least part of) the price difference went to supporting those who make things, whereas I try to avoid purchasing things from China because of quality, ethics and human rights issues.

I feel e.g. good for buying veils from Jesennia, or for wearing Flying Skirts cholis, or for playing El Coyote zills because I know that these things are made by independent artisans and not by workers who slave in factories under unacceptable conditions.

For me, it is of less importance in my decision whether the items I wear come from a country that is related to bellydance. Instead, fair compensation and proper working conditions are what I care most about, followed by environmental concerns.

ETA - what about "fair trade hip scarves" ;-)

Just a note - my objection to Chinese manufacturing has more to do with the stage of capitalism that they are going through than an overall negative judgement of the people.

I am mainly concerned with quality. I don't want cheaply made anything whether it be from China, India or Egypt. I too prefer to buy from independents

I can't shut up: I would welcome it if a vendor had information about how and/or by whom items are produced on their website, somewhat similar to e.g. the Tenthousand Villages website. Something like photos of the importer with workers in Egypt, showing where they work, how their income helps their daughters through school ... etc.

However, in contrast to Tenthousand Villages, which is a non-profit organization, I feel that an importer/vendor should be properly compensated for the extra effort to get high-quality items from people who work under better conditions. It requires a lot of work to run a business with high ethics, and those who go the extra mile deserve to benefit financially, as well. It is similar to my coffee: I happily pay more for fair trade coffee, and I have no problem with Trader Joe's making some extra profit from that product.

I agree with Shira. I buy items only from the countries (Egypt/Turkey) where our dance comes from and like to think of doing so as a way of giving back.
My sister bought one of those Hong Kong cheapo costumes on eBay for Halloween. She was fine with it because she was not using it for dancing, but even still, I personally choose to shop for genuine Egyptian costumes.

Originally Posted by steffib

I can't shut up: I would welcome it if a vendor had information about how and/or by whom items are produced on their website, somewhat similar to e.g. the Tenthousand Villages website. Something like photos of the importer with workers in Egypt, showing where they work, how their income helps their daughters through school ... etc.

Steffi - this is a good point and one that I have also been turning around in my mind. I met and spoke with some of Eman's and Sahar's workers who were skilled artisans and who worked in good conditions and for good pay (for Egyptian standards).

I also explored the Khan and saw the areas deeper in the markets where women and children make the cheaper hipscarves and costumes for the "no name" costume shops that abound in the market. They work in cramped areas, where the warehouse was smaller than a bedroom in my house, stuffed with people, fabric, machines, etc. They work long hours for little pay.

Seeing where some of these costumes come from, I am impressed with their quality (even though I'd call it poor quality) - it's amazing that they could make a half ok replica of an Eman or Sahar with limited skills, knowledge, time, and material.

But does just "Egyptian made" make it ok for me? For the lower end stuff, I partly don't want to perpuate bad conditions, but not buying doesn't seem to be the answer either.

I guess it's a long winded way to say that I too would love vendors and programs that could show us the conditions of the workers, how their income assists them and their families, etc.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

This came up at Rakkasah and I thought Bhuzzers might have some interesting insights. Belly dance hip scarfs and costumes made in China seem to be flooding the market. Do a search on ebay, and a ton of costumes for under $200 come up from sellers in Hong Kong.

I can't comment on the quality for all the merchandise, but a lot of what I have seen from China is terrible quality. (Of course, I have seen some terrible quality merchandise from Egypt too.)

Should we, as dancers, choose to support vendors and businesses who sell items made in Egypt? Or should we shop with who has the best price (assuming quality being even)?

I guess, after seeing women in Cairo making costumes and hipscarves and seeing the mind-blowing poverty, I wonder if cheaper knock offs from China will undermine their few chances to earn a livelihood?

So, do we "buy Egyptian" or face the reality of global commerce? Is it ethical, not ethical? Where do you stand? What do you think?

It's a personal call. And don't assume it's just cheap hipscarves and whatever. I would like to know, for instance, where Dahlal's L-Rose and Melo knockoffs are manufactured. Where are your CDs and DVDs produced? Where are your ballet slippers made? Where did your cane come from? How about those cute blingy earrings? How about your eyeshadow? Is Chinese production more or less evil than production in other countries that also undermine human rights in various situations?

Here it's very hard not to have anything made in China in your life. It might be easier in the US where you have more manufacturing, but I suspect that in a country where they use HFC because it's cheaper than sugar, there are plenty of companies who get things made in China for the same reason.

I was doing some research a while ago and found a Chinese company that sold (hideous) bedleh for $2.50 each wholesale. Of course you need to order at least 200 of them, but. Can you compete with those prices? It's bloody difficult.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Should we, as dancers, choose to support vendors and businesses who sell items made in Egypt? Or should we shop with who has the best price (assuming quality being even)?

Even though I doubt I'll ever have to worry about buying a costume, I tend to agree, in general, with the thought Shira has. Supporting the native artists is a great way to ensure support for the origin of this art form. It also can ensure "quality over quantity" with regards to their work; I've also seen bedlah from "over there" that was of hideously low quality, and was sold more for tourists than for dancers. That, I do not think we should support.

And that last bit also gives a clue as to what to look for, elsewhere. We dancers should learn to discern quality, workmanship, and other such items. A lot of these knock-offs -- no matter where they come from -- can be looked at, or if not, at least questions asked before purchase. If someone gets a coin belt via the mail that loses coins by just staring at it hard, we should be encouraging each other in alerting the community. Teachers should be providing students with vendors and "known good" gear to start with (which also goes into my zill/sagat rant, but that's for another time…)

The one thing I don't want to do is tar all of the product of a country -- products made by individuals and companies -- with a broad brush right off the bat. It may be true that the majority of the product is crap; I've not seen enough of the stuff from, say, China, to know for certain. Yet it seems wise to me to at least start from a position of encouraging them to produce quality, rather than boycotting them out of hand. The latter means more good product for us, hopefully, and more jobs for people in a country that has serious issues coming into the 21st Century.

If we keep growing the dance here (and by "here" I mean the West), I see no reason we can't lift up both old and new suppliers. Do you?

China is great for silk and no worries, I'm supporting plenty of them over there with my monthly orders for silk

but the costumes I've seen are horrid. They are ok about following instructions but its sort of like going to Taco Bell for a big mac..I can't for sure say you'd never find a great quality costume from China but my experience with this a few years ago was that they are better for silk:)

i know its horrible to think about women and children and men for that matter working in cramped conditions, for long hours doing tedious work..BUT for a lot of these people that is the only income they have and they are happy for it. even if it is hard work and long hours for piddly pay, they see it as a way to try to feed the family. my trip to china a few years ago was a real eye opener. i dont agree with employing children as slaves or something like that but in many other countries the kids help out how they can. wish i could get my teenager to just do easy photoshop work for me for 10/hr but well he's really spoiled

Originally Posted by jesennia

i dont agree with employing children as slaves or something like that but in many other countries the kids help out how they can.

Here in the U.S., some families do expect their children to help with the family business. I grew up on a farm, and my brothers and I were certainly required to do our fair share of farm work from the time we were old enough to do so. We didn't feel like slaves, we just saw our work as playing a role in helping our family make ends meet and save for our college educations. Obviously, we weren't always thrilled about helping with farm chores, but every farm family in our community operated the same way, and we just accepted it as part of growing up on a farm.

I would imagine that Egyptian families who make costumes feel the same way as my family did. I know that Mahmoud Abdel-Ghaffar (owner of al-Wikala) works with a number of families in Egypt (mostly in Upper Egypt) to have them make the items he sells. He sends them fabrics and bags of beads and sequins, and they make the items. The families do the work in their homes. At the time I talked to him about it, he worked directly with about 20 families, and he estimated that each of his families in turn recruited about 20 additional families to help them produce items for him. Therefore, buying his merchandise provides financial support for about 400 families in Egypt.

exactly, we were expected to help out too and there was no allowance..it was just expected that you help out since you are a member of the family. i did the same with Morgan when he lived with me, he had light chores ..i didn't give him allowance but gave him treats here and there for good behavior. his dad pays him to help out which i think is a mistake but thats another thread another day

Realistically, those who stick to their ethics won't change the working conditions in foreign countries, since they cannot compete with the majority of Americans who value bargains more than principles. After all, if it's not the Chinese or Egyptians making these costumes, it would likely be illegal immigrants paid sub-standard wages in our own country.
However, by choosing companies that practice fair trade, at least they can be rewarded for their good ethics.
I was personally disgusted with some of the work conditions in Egypt...men employing their daughters or sisters to do long days labor, without any choice on her part. I no longer would buy a costume without some evidence of an ethical workshop. But the real issue is between governments... the Egyptian economy depends on tourism and touristic goods, and that won't change unless the priorities of leaders do.

the working from home thing, sending out supplies/sending back finished products reminds me a lot of the piece work system that was done in the Lower East Side tenements of NYC during the early 20th century