Thread: what differentiates a saidi dress from a baladi dress?

I have seen some dresses listed as Saidi dresses that look like closely-fitted galabeyas (saidi jewel on bhuz). I have also seem those velvet ones with tons of pailletes and the chandelier design on the front - billed as saidi dresses. (like on bellydancestore.biz, they have both the galabeya type and the velvet-paillete type) But I've also seen people wear the same costume for beledi and the same silhouette on l. rose is billed as a baladi dress.

Is there a significant difference? Does it matter if you wear a saidi dress for baladi or vice versa?

How about length? Sometimes they seem rather short - should they be mid-calf, ankle-length, etc?

Also when you see them on the Dahlal site, they look like they have matching headscarfs and hipscarves - but then it says that they do not come with them - how do you find their match?

To me...
under bust cut = Saidi
bell sleeves = Saidi
Crescent decor = Saidi

Shirt style dress with tight sleeves = Beladi

To me the crescent decor and bell sleeves are specifically Saidi. I see underbust cut on a lot of dresses I don't think of as Saidi, and most Saidi dresses don't have it, so I'm not so sure I'd include that.

To confuse matters further, people in the US have referred to all manner of sequinned gowns as 'baladi dresses' or 'baladi gowns' for years, so even though I think that's changing, I'll use the term 'galabeya' instead for clarity

A gallabeya can certainly be worn for Saidi, so I can see why people might call it a Saidi dress. It can be worn for Saidi.

Saidi, to me, is a subset of baladi. All saidi is baladi, but not all baladi is saidi.

So I'd do Saidi in a galabeya, but I probably wouldn't do baladi in a dress I think of as specifically Saidi, with the crescent decor and bell sleeves.

My perception of the crescent-embellished, bell-sleeved dress as being 'only' and specifically for Saidi isn't based on any first-hand knowledge of what dancers in Egypt do...it's based on years of osmosis and, largely, how retailers have named things. So I welcome correction, and reserve the right to change my answer!

The dresses with the dowry necklace on them are often worn for Zeffa which is balady.

Remember that Saidi is a region and a people. Balady simply means country, much like Fallahin means Farmers.

The truth is that there is a lot f overlap in the costume choices. Typically, Saidi has a lot more folk influences and baladi is seen as more Cairo centric. But not always.

It's confusing. But is it worth worrying about?

{{{HUGS}}}

Delete. . .

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

The dresses with the dowry necklace on them are often worn for Zeffa which is balady.

Wow, really? I've never seen that. Not arguing with you, but really curious about your source on this because in my zeffa research last year I probably watched dozens and dozens of clips of zeffas, real ones in Cairo hotels and footage from old Egyptian films with wedding scenes, and I don't remember seeing that.

Just cause I don't remember doesn't mean I didn't maybe see it, and not being on youtube doesn't negate a fact. But I'd like to know your source for that before I readjust my thinking!

(eta: also wonder if that would be specific to a Saidi wedding?)

Remember that Saidi is a region and a people. Balady simply means country, much like Fallahin means Farmers.

Yes. And the Saidi region is a Balady region. (country as opposed to city). Is that your understanding of it too?

The truth is that there is a lot f overlap in the costume choices. Typically, Saidi has a lot more folk influences and baladi is seen as more Cairo centric. But not always.

It's confusing. But is it worth worrying about?

{{{HUGS}}}

Again, not arguing with you but trying to clarify my understanding -- I never had the idea of baladi as being Cairo centric, although there are baladi neighborhoods in Cairo. I always thought those neighborhoods represented an influx of 'country folk' from outside Cairo (even if it were generations ago) and the baladi population in Cairo was only the tip of the baladi iceberg.

I think of *certain* forms, like the baladi progression or baladi taxim, being specifically of Cairo origination. But not all baladi. I thought there were baladi people all over Egypt, probably baladi neighborhoods in most of the major cities...

Have I misunderstood something?

Well to confuse things even more, what about the dowry necklace design on haggallah dresses?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Again, not arguing with you but trying to clarify my understanding -- I never had the idea of baladi as being Cairo centric, although there are baladi neighborhoods in Cairo. I always thought those neighborhoods represented an influx of 'country folk' from outside Cairo (even if it were generations ago) and the baladi population in Cairo was only the tip of the baladi iceberg.

I think of *certain* forms, like the baladi progression or baladi taxim, being specifically of Cairo origination. But not all baladi. I thought there were baladi people all over Egypt, probably baladi neighborhoods in most of the major cities...

Have I misunderstood something?

No, you haven't! Not at all, according to the Egyptians and Egyptian-focused teachers I've studied with. This is how they use "baladi," "country," to highlight the contrast with the more "sophisticated" and "refined" raqs sharqi, which we all know is of urban (and more recent) origin. That's one reason why the dance/music style currently called shaabi is sometimes characterized as "urban baladi," right? It's got the earthiness and rough edges -- there are better words, but you know what I mean -- of baladi, but it's city-produced music, and dance to go with that music, created in (and in part by and for) a city setting. You are right on the money.

Real-world example: In a folkloric class last week, when Faten was reminding to be more earthy and less "oriental" in fellahin and even melaya, what she kept saying was "remember, these are baladi people! This is their way of moving -- not sharqi!" She also sometimes translates "baladi" as "popular," meaning "of the (common) people," but that doesn't really work in English because although the dictionary accepts it, that's not what most people understand by "popular" in English. (Maybe "vernacular" as in "vernacular architecture" would be better...nah, it's kind of the same problem.) My translator brain keeps wanting to gloss "baladi" as "salt of the earth" in that context, since that's the implication in terms of culture and -- opening Pandora's box here and ducking -- social class.

thought under bust was turkish

Originally Posted by Souzan

Well to confuse things even more, what about the dowry necklace design on haggallah dresses?

I've seen pictures of dancers posed in haggallah dresses with canes. Dancers who know what they're doing, too, not students.

*mind boggles*

Someone needs to take away my edit button. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Zana

Someone needs to take away my edit button. Sorry.

????? Why????

Thanks for your response above, Zana. My heart palpitations quit. I hate it when people keep moving my cheese.

I wonder if Tahira specifically meant balady taxim then? Lately people seem to just say 'baladi' for short and I find out later they meant balady taxim.

So, I have one of those saidi dresses with the dowry necklace on it, in velvet...now I know I can wear it for zeffa, or for saidi. I have been wondering what the hell to wear it for (I just had to buy in Egypt because I loved it.) So that was motivation #1.

Motivation #2: I want to do a baladi progression soon and I'd like to get something like that adorable red dress that Ranya Renee is wearing in her video. I wasn't sure if the "saidi jewels" on Dahlal were baladi-appropriate, for example. I don't like the look of the big baggy galabeyas on my figure.

And my parentheses.

Originally Posted by zamora

thought under bust was turkish

Well, it's that too isn't it? I think in that case there's another name for the garment. And it's more like a coat than a dress.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I wasn't sure if the "saidi jewels" on Dahlal were baladi-appropriate, for example.

They absolutely are. I wouldn't wear the dowry-necklace one for that, but the slinky Hanan and Dahlal galabeyas are AWESOME. You will be perfectly appropriate, and you will look and feel like a million bucks. This is why I now have three more of them than I can possibly justify.

I usually wear them with coin scarves at GP events, but a simple scarf, maybe with fringed ends, is even more streamlined, appropriate, and, um, sexy.

(Pandora's Box #2, opening soon at a theater near you.)

Shira to the rescue

What is a Baladi Dress?

Originally Posted by Zana

Real-world example: In a folkloric class last week, when Faten was reminding to be more earthy and less "oriental" in fellahin and even melaya, what she kept saying was "remember, these are baladi people! This is their way of moving -- not sharqi!" She also sometimes translates "baladi" as "popular," meaning "of the (common) people," but that doesn't really work in English because although the dictionary accepts it, that's not what most people understand by "popular" in English. (Maybe "vernacular" as in "vernacular architecture" would be better...nah, it's kind of the same problem.) My translator brain keeps wanting to gloss "baladi" as "salt of the earth" in that context, since that's the implication in terms of culture and -- opening Pandora's box here and ducking -- social class.

Hi Zana - when I'm using beledi as an adjective, the translation I like is "down home" - whether it's cooking or dancing - it certainly evokes something earthy, without airs - and delicious. ..g.:

Yum. Thank you. That's perfect!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wow, really? I've never seen that. Not arguing with you, but really curious about your source on this because in my zeffa research last year I probably watched dozens and dozens of clips of zeffas, real ones in Cairo hotels and footage from old Egyptian films with wedding scenes, and I don't remember seeing that.

Sahra talks about this in JtE and uses one of those dresses as an EAMPLE of what is appropriate. . .

Just cause I don't remember doesn't mean I didn't maybe see it, and not being on youtube doesn't negate a fact. But I'd like to know your source for that before I readjust my thinking!

(eta: also wonder if that would be specific to a Saidi wedding?)

then they might have a Ghawazzi and skip the Zeffah ;-)

Yes. And the Saidi region is a Balady region. (country as opposed to city). Is that your understanding of it too?

Yes, although as mentioned, it also does denote social class and can be a catch all for NOT upper class. (I like Zana's understanding of Shaabi)

Again, not arguing with you but trying to clarify my understanding -- I never had the idea of baladi as being Cairo centric, although there are baladi neighborhoods in Cairo. I always thought those neighborhoods represented an influx of 'country folk' from outside Cairo (even if it were generations ago) and the baladi population in Cairo was only the tip of the baladi iceberg.

I think of *certain* forms, like the baladi progression or baladi taxim, being specifically of Cairo origination. But not all baladi. I thought there were baladi people all over Egypt, probably baladi neighborhoods in most of the major cities...

Have I misunderstood something?

No, you haven't misunderstood. When you get back to Egypt, this is correct. My experience here is that when an instructor says Balidi, they are likely talking a more Cairo-centric style of dance. Shaabi is a good example. What Dina does is also seen as an example. Once again, it goes back to social class, I think. Balidi neighborhoods in Cairo, from what I have understood, were working class. Whether these are shops. manufactures or musicians, didn't matter.

But, once again, this is *MY* understanding.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Zana

They absolutely are. I wouldn't wear the dowry-necklace one for that, but the slinky Hanan and Dahlal galabeyas are AWESOME. You will be perfectly appropriate, and you will look and feel like a million bucks. This is why I now have three more of them than I can possibly justify.

I think these are wonderful for baladi as well. They are sparkly, pretty, and seem to flatter many body types.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I've seen pictures of dancers posed in haggallah dresses with canes. Dancers who know what they're doing, too, not students.

*mind boggles*

Yeah, I've seen dancer doing assaya wearing them--the glitzy stage versions in net and lycra and lots of sequins and paillettes. So I think of it a glam fokloric look.

Pictures, please!

RE: underbust dresses/coats

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Well, it's that too isn't it? I think in that case there's another name for the garment. And it's more like a coat than a dress.

I think when they are coats, whether over or underbust, they are based on entari (also called Turkish coats, and ghawazee coats, per SteffiB's comment below).They are a modern interpretation of older garmets. Folkwear has a pattern for the basic modern version, you can cut the entari under the bust (or tuck it under to show off a decorated bra) Folkwear Pattern #108. Some people make them out of stretch fabrics and make them much more glamorous, and then they start to look like L Rose's dress version.

I believe the underbust cut is not exclusive to Turkey; Aisha Ali mentioned that the Ghawazee wore underbust-cut tops in the days before bras b/c/o the support the cut offers. Whether it is a case of copying or independent development, I don't know.

Originally Posted by steffib

I believe the underbust cut is not exclusive to Turkey; Aisha Ali mentioned that the Ghawazee wore underbust-cut tops in the days before bras b/c/o the support the cut offers. Whether it is a case of copying or independent development, I don't know.

And the Ghawazee also wore dowry necklaces...,r:;

I am doing Ranya's baladi teleconference on April 1 and think this might be good topic to ask about.

Souzan

yeah, the ghawazee coat! thanks.

Cane with bell sleeves?

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Maybe I need smaller bells...