Thread: If you wear tribaret, can you dance cabaret?

I was at Medfest this summer and a cute black, velvet bra caught my eye. It is a tie back halter style decorated on the cups with a minimal/moderate amount of tribal coins and shells.

I paired it with a tribal looking hip belt that has a couple short yarn tassels and brocade trim. I loved it-Until the woman who sold me a necklace (tribal style necklace) told me I shouldn't dance Egyptian dressed like this. (She labeled my look "tribaret" which is fine, I like that look too).

I took it with a grain of salt and assumed she was well meaning and was trying to educate me on the different styles of dance. But since the only performance I would ever do would be at our class haflas, is wearing this set permissable? I have a burgundy two tiered chiffon skirt to wear with the bra and belt.

I was quite excited about this look until I heard otherwise. .w.: Am I committing a major fashion/dance faux pas? Will the belly police come after me?.p::

No. A good dancer is a good dancer regardless of what they are wearing.

However the only time I think it matters is when you are presenting something folkloric or if you are out there trying to get pro gigs or in a competition setting. Then you need to dress the part.

Yes, you have my permission to wear "tribaret" and dance "cabaret," sounds lovely to me!..g.:

p.s. I wouldn't choose classical Egyptian style music for it, though.

i think you are free to dance anything wearing anything, as long as you don't present it as folkloric/classic egyptian dance garb :)
xx
Happy dancing
Athena

It depends on your audience. I think maybe what the seller meant to warn you about was that some Middle Eastern people are confused and offended when they see people representing their culture and wearing tassels. In the Middle East, only animals (camels) wear tassels. I've heard more than once about Arabs reacting badly, and it's hard to make them understand that yes, this person is doing bellydance, but no, they don't mean to represent your culture in any way.*

You might want to save this particular set for more fusiony pieces -- or maybe just take off the tassels and replace them with something else? It's the tassels that seem to be most problematic.


*It must be as confusing as if you were in another country and the people said they were going to do 'American dance' and they came out square dancing... and wearing saddles.

You know what? First of all what the hell is 'cabaret' and second of all, 'cabaret'/oriental dancers were wearing that look 20 years ago and why the hell should you NOT. Plenty of so called tribal/tribaret/cabaribal/whatever dancers in my neck of the woods are not too proud to wear an Egyptian twopiece when they do their lock and pop.

*I* say that if your dance is even fractionally American cabaretish then why the hell not. It's *retro*. And maybe even for Egyptian - why should Egyptian-style dancers be boxed into Lycra Only?

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It's Cassandra in the 80s.

You can wear anything you like and feel comfortable in, but as an audience member & costumer, I would assume you were a newbie and think, "poor girl probably doesn't know any better".

Originally Posted by zumarrad

You know what? First of all what the hell is 'cabaret' and second of all, 'cabaret'/oriental dancers were wearing that look 20 years ago and why the hell should you NOT. Plenty of so called tribal/tribaret/cabaribal/whatever dancers in my neck of the woods are not too proud to wear an Egyptian twopiece when they do their lock and pop.

*I* say that if your dance is even fractionally American cabaretish then why the hell not. It's *retro*. And maybe even for Egyptian - why should Egyptian-style dancers be boxed into Lycra Only?

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It's Cassandra in the 80s.

It's early in the morning and I should probably wait to reply until I'm more AWAKE, but my initial reaction and thought is this:

If I'm going to dance the lead role in Ballet for Swan Lake, I'm not going to show up in my square dancing outfit. I would get many many confused looks from the audience.

Cabaret dancers should wear something cabaret looking, chiffon, lycra, beads, sequins, so forth and I'm a firm believer in the correct music to accomodate the costume. (I'm sure there are a few exceptions though, just can't think right now)..l;,

I guess what I'm saying is, I would feel confused if a dancer presented herself on stage wearing Cuchi pendants and tassels, dancing to Ana Fi, you know what I mean.


**Goes off to wake up some more.**

would love to see a picture

I agree with Laura on the "no-yarn-tassels" (worn only on animals in the ME) issue here. Your dancing can be great, but you don't want to distract an ethnic (or otherwise informed audience members) with a potentially offensive costuming element. Maybe they can be removed and reattached (or placed on a lightweight "underbelt") for wearing in other venues.

Without the tassels, it's like Zumarrad said, your costume will actually be somewhat retro. Very cool and perfectly appropriate.

-Devora

I think it depends on the music and audience. I've seen costumes that are atypical for a style of dance work well.

IIRC, Ansuya has some photos of her in costumes with tassels. She isn't (according to her, haven't seen her dance recently) straight up Oriental or "American cabaret" or anything, though.

I agree with Zumarred- as my first teacher used to say, "back 'in the day' it was just belly dance. tribal or cabaret referred to our costume, we didn't dance that different" So, now we're more educated & the styles have branched out & distinguished themselves more & everyone is concerned about not stepping on toes- but this costume, too, has a history here.
If you are dancing haflas & such, I wouldn't sweat it too much, & the skirt & accessories you choose will make a big difference.
Now, I am a costume addict & a style whore- so, I have my cab stuff & my alt/fusion stuff & my ATS stuff & my folkloric stuff & have the options of dressing differently for diff numbers & try to stay authentic to particular styles. I wouldn't take that same set you described, pair it with Melodias & fishnet & do cab, but what you described sounds like a nice crossover outfit that should be versatile for both styles.
I may change my mind tomorrow, but that's how I feel this morning ;)

Originally Posted by Devora

I agree with Laura on the "no-yarn-tassels" (worn only on animals in the ME) issue here. Your dancing can be great, but you don't want to distract an ethnic (or otherwise informed audience members) with a potentially offensive costuming element. Maybe they can be removed and reattached (or placed on a lightweight "underbelt") for wearing in other venues.

Without the tassels, it's like Zumarrad said, your costume will actually be somewhat retro. Very cool and perfectly appropriate.

-Devora

Fabulous idea, Devora! I do like versatility!

Originally Posted by Michelle75

It's early in the morning and I should probably wait to reply until I'm more AWAKE, but my initial reaction and thought is this:

If I'm going to dance the lead role in Ballet for Swan Lake, I'm not going to show up in my square dancing outfit. I would get many many confused looks from the audience.

Cabaret dancers should wear something cabaret looking, chiffon, lycra, beads, sequins, so forth and I'm a firm believer in the correct music to accomodate the costume. (I'm sure there are a few exceptions though, just can't think right now)..l;,

I guess what I'm saying is, I would feel confused if a dancer presented herself on stage wearing Cuchi pendants and tassels, dancing to Ana Fi, you know what I mean.


**Goes off to wake up some more.**

I think what Zummarad was trying to say is that long before the cabaret/tribal divide dancers were making and wearing costumes that would now be considered "tribaret" (which is really a silly term)

By the way when I saw Dina dance in Cairo last year, one of her costumes was covered in Kuchi pendants and tribal jewelry.

this reminds me a bit of SCA events- folks who are starting out often make some serious mistakes- some people don't care & keep clinging to inauthentic garb- the rest of the folks I know try to gently educate the newbies. We are also forgiving since we recognize that it takes time, dedication and no little bit of cash to build up a more authentic wardrobe, and that sometimes it is fun to thumb our nose at convention, as long as we know & let others know that is what we are doing.

I feel that the goal should be a performance that "matches", after all, bellydance is more than just movement, it is a dance that comes with a rich cultural context. For a good performance, movement, music, costume and the overall feel, which is determined by the dancer's persona, should become a cohesive unit. It can be quite jarring when these elements are a bad mish-mash.

If your heart beats for more of a vintage oriental style of dancing, then a costume that is more reminiscent of what was done esp. in the Bay Area in the 60s/70s (i.e., a costume we call tribaret today) is a great choice.

But, if Egyptian pop is what puts wings on your feet, that outfit may not be the best choice.

As for tassels: I don't think that tassels are always a problem, depending on what style of dance one performs. If the roots of your dance are not in the Arabic world, but more in Turkey, and thereby Central Asia, you will find that tassels are sometimes worn by humans (esp. in their hair) and are often used to decorate yurts.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

You know what? First of all what the hell is 'cabaret' and second of all, 'cabaret'/oriental dancers were wearing that look 20 years ago and why the hell should you NOT. Plenty of so called tribal/tribaret/cabaribal/whatever dancers in my neck of the woods are not too proud to wear an Egyptian twopiece when they do their lock and pop.

*I* say that if your dance is even fractionally American cabaretish then why the hell not. It's *retro*. And maybe even for Egyptian - why should Egyptian-style dancers be boxed into Lycra Only?

Hope this pic works:
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It's Cassandra in the 80s.

The term "cabaret" was the term used here in US for "American Cabaret" style costuming which was beaded belt and bra or a metal crystal or mirrored bra belt over circle skirts. Also used to distinguish a style of dance "waay back then" that featured intricate veil work and playing zills basically for entire show - as opposed to the "Egyptian Nightclub" style of costuming with the bra and belt/skirt combination that eventually developed in the late '90's and is now so high fashion that fringe is almost non-existant on those costumes.

Personally, I agree why should a dancer who wants to perform "Egyptian Nightclub" style HAVE to wear lycra and no separate belt? These cossies, while beautiful, can be very limiting because you can't take belt off and use with another skirt. I have ONE Egyptian bra and belt/skirt ensemble and do not want another for exactly this reason.

Having said that, our troupe now has a "tribaret" style - we can wear our coin bras and belts with either a sleek velvet straight skirt with a glam slit over one thigh, or with our big spinning skirts. To me, a coin costume without tassels is a very versatile set that can be used with lots of different skirts for any style of dance except folkloric, which another poster mentioned here.

I think it depends on two things:

- what is the context of the performance?

Who are you dancing for? If it's a community hafli, then wear what you want and feel beautiful in. If you're dancing for general public (arabs or otherwise), then you should probably dress to their expectations.


- what is the basic nature of the costume?

Is your tribaret ensemble essentially a tribal costume with some cabaret details or a cabaret costume with some tribal details? (i.e., is it's tribal nature or its cabaret nature dominant?)

Since you mentioned that it's a tie-back bra and tribal belt, I'm guessing that it's probably tribal-with-cabaret-elements. Do you have any photos?


My personal feeling is that it's best if the basic nature of the costume fits the style of the piece. i.e., if you're going to do a cabaret style piece, the costume should be essentially cabaret. Otherwise, it just looks "off", like the dancer doesn't know what's appropriate. And that's distracting.

That said, once you have that "core" match, you can take a lot of liberties with the details.

A dancer in our area has a bedleh decorated with cowrie shells and kuchi pieces. The decorations are tribal, but because of the classic shape of the underlying bra and belt and the chiffon skirt she wears with it, it still reads as fairly dressy. It just has some earthier design elements. I've seen her wear it for american cabaret performances, and it looks lovely and entirely appropriate.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

In the Middle East, only animals (camels) wear tassels.

Oh THANK you for that explanation, Lauren! That makes it click for me.

I knew that at least some of the tassels came from camels and horse tack (the first exposure to them I had was a friend who raises a Turkomen horse breed - she would sometimes buy vintage horse tassels for their bridles from belly dance suppliers) I thought the people in the ME might giggle and think it was stupid to wear stinky old horse tack but it never occurred to me that it might be offensive and essentially equating the women to animals (especially with the harem stereotypes and fantasies) Is that how some people see it?

Some of the horse and camel tassels my friend had weren't just yarn, but had very elaborate beading. And I remember her talking about one set made from some sort of beetle's shells - I saw a photo, it looked a bit like the cowrie tassels.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It must be as confusing as if you were in another country and the people said they were going to do 'American dance' and they came out square dancing... and wearing saddles.

..l;,

I was thinking it's equivalent to someone innocently wearing a rhinestone dog collar with an evening dress because it makes "a pretty choker" - maybe a matching leash clipped around the waist as a belt. Done unintentionally (not in a pushing-the-boundaries Gothic way) it would bring gales of laughter from some people, and deeply offend others.

I like the idea that costume appropriateness depends on the audience and venue as well as the dancer/style. It leaves room for creativity and experiments, while keeping an eye towards respecting the cultures.

[QUOTE=Nisima;489953]
Personally, I agree why should a dancer who wants to perform "Egyptian Nightclub" style HAVE to wear lycra and no separate belt? These cossies, while beautiful, can be very limiting because you can't take belt off and use with another skirt. I have ONE Egyptian bra and belt/skirt ensemble and do not want another for exactly this reason.

QUOTE]

The very fact that folks are presuming that a cabaret dancer has to wear lycra is bemusing me! Is this an American thing? It certainly does not apply in the UK.

just for the record... 20 years ago, my first 'cabaret' outfit was a red cotton circle skirt with a ruffle, black velvet belt with coins & red & gold trim, a coin bra on a black velvet base & sleeveless underbust vest... usually with the skirt tucked up somewhere & black pants underneath. ya know- back whan lycra was meant for irridescent blue saddle pants.

What other folk have said: my first costumes (and some of my present ones) are now called Tribaret. Which both annoys and amuses me. I am not in any way a tribal dancer.

Especially for daytime and outdoor gigs: the lycra Egyptian style look doesn't work. Remember, a lot of the faux, fakelore, tribal look (as we call it!) came from 'cabaret' people (which we ALL pretty much were) not wearing our super fancy, expensive duds in the great outdoors and to daytime parties. Didn't change our dance styles much.

I love the look, and will continue to use it.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

You know what? First of all what the hell is 'cabaret' and second of all, 'cabaret'/oriental dancers were wearing that look 20 years ago and why the hell should you NOT. Plenty of so called tribal/tribaret/cabaribal/whatever dancers in my neck of the woods are not too proud to wear an Egyptian twopiece when they do their lock and pop.

This is sort of my thinking. Thanks Zumarrad. (couldn't see the pic as I don't belong to facebook)

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

I think it depends on two things:

- what is the context of the performance?


- what is the basic nature of the costume?

jmduradh: Yes totally agree. I am more concerned with matching the music to the dance style than the costume. As I said, in my case I'd put much more consideration if I were dancing in front of the GP but since I can only see as far as our class haflas, I think I am good to go.

PS If I can figure out how to get the dang bra back on and tie it the correct way I will post pics. As it is, I need an extra set of arms just to criss cross the thing the right way..l;,

PS: Lauren way to go on the new star

Zumarrad, you're not far behind either!

Originally Posted by SaskaK

it never occurred to me that it might be offensive and essentially equating the women to animals [snip]
I was thinking it's equivalent to someone innocently wearing a rhinestone dog collar with an evening dress because it makes "a pretty choker" - maybe a matching leash clipped around the waist as a belt. Done unintentionally (not in a pushing-the-boundaries Gothic way) it would bring gales of laughter from some people, and deeply offend others.

Yes, that's what I think -- I'm not an Arab, so I don't want to speak for anyone. You're right, though, it's both horses and camels who wear tassels -- working animals, beasts of burden, not pets. I think part of it is just the shocked 'do they think we do that?' feeling.

This topic always reminds me of the time I walked past a pizzeria in Italy and one of the pics on the wall was an 'American Pizza,' covered with french fries and sliced hot dogs! I had this moment of combined embarrassment and anger -- 'Do they REALLY think we eat that?' and wanted to explain things to the nearest Italian very badly. But then I decided it was *probably* meant to be rather tongue in cheek... Anyway, I suspect that's the exact sensation experienced by Middle Easterners when they see their dance being done in costumes they would *never* wear, or to music they would never use, etc.

Well, one explanation I heard about the camel tassels is that Bedouin women would take the decorated reins of the halters from the horses or camels and wrap them around their hips when the music in the camp got going. . .

What amazed me was that the person who said this was a long time dancer and really, really serious about it.

While I could see their this *might* happen, I kinda, sorta, want to see some documentation!

{{{HUGS}}}

The term "cabaret" was the term used here in US for "American Cabaret" style costuming which was beaded belt and bra or a metal crystal or mirrored bra belt over circle skirts. Also used to distinguish a style of dance "waay back then" that featured intricate veil work and playing zills basically for entire show - as opposed to the "Egyptian Nightclub" style of costuming with the bra and belt/skirt combination that eventually developed in the late '90's and is now so high fashion that fringe is almost non-existant on those costumes.

I know, I was being sarcastic. In truth there are many newer dancers who think "cabaret" = "anything not tribal". Not so long ago someone here identified a dowry necklace as unsuitable for oriental dance because it was "tribal". Uh, nope.

American pizza

Actually pretty much all pizza of the type we would buy from a takeaway is American, I'm told. Real Italian pizza is a lot simpler and really more like a piece of bread with a little topping.

Originally Posted by mariyah13

I think what Zummarad was trying to say is that long before the cabaret/tribal divide dancers were making and wearing costumes that would now be considered "tribaret" (which is really a silly term)

By the way when I saw Dina dance in Cairo last year, one of her costumes was covered in Kuchi pendants and tribal jewelry.

Hehehehe, now that I'm fully awake (but ready for bed) I TOTALLY see where Zummarad was going with that post.

When it comes to tassels, there is at least some evidence that dancers may have worn belts with tassels (and cowries), in the lands of the dance. If you check the Oriental Belly Dance book, p. 49, it has a photo of a 19th century chengi group, and one of the ladies wears (around her waist) a belt with tassels. Granted, this is a posed photo, which allows for speculation about is reliability, but it is a photo with a presumably Turkish woman wearing a belt with tassels.

Not sayin' that we now should argue that ATS-style tassel belts are "authentic" (we all know better than that, of course), but if I based my choices on 19th century chengi dancers, I'd have some evidence that I am not a completely offensive idiot.