Thread: The Big Lie?

Okay, so I get really frustrated about this. We as dancers advertise bellydance as a dance for women of all ages and body types. That's one thing that drew me to the dance in the first place. I'm still fairly young (33) and, with the exception of my growing preggie belly, thin. But I always LOVED that older women, pregnant women and full-figured women seemed to be just as welcome to the dance as women with model-perfect figures. It's not so much that way in many other dance forms.

But, now I'm wondering--are we feeding ourselves a lie?

I ask because of a few things. For one, I've overheard many DANCERS make catty remarks during performances by full-figured women (and these were talented, well-costumed women not newbies with ill-fitting costumes) and older women. I've heard reputable instructors remark that they wouldn't put someone on the stage who was a certain size or age. I've experienced watching larger women and older women placed in the back during stage performances solely because of their size and/or age.

Now that I'm pregnant, lo and behold it's my turn. Suddenly, I'm not offered gigs (even though I am just now beginning to show--and it's only noticeable to me and my closest friends--to everyone else it would look like I had a big hamburger for lunch )--they are instead offered to less experienced dancers with a flat belly. I fully expect to be shuffled to the back in our spring show so that my 8-month belly will be "less of a distraction" (right--less of an "embarrassment", maybe?? ,r:;).

On top of that, I was recently told that an older but fantastic dancer I know is no longer offered gigs because "The Arab community just thinks she's too old to be doing these performances any more".

This freaking sucks. I'm so disgruntled with people in general. Sure, whatever, at least it's not Brazil where youth & beauty are the gold standard, blah blah blah. Sure, the general public will always have expectations. Expectations be d*mned. I live in the south where about 80 percent of the population is plus-sized. For heavens sakes, it's FANTASTIC that full figured, pregnant, and over-40 women feel GREAT about the way they look and are proud to get up on a stage and do what they LOVE!!! We are human beings, we are real people.

Okay, my rant is over. I just wonder, are we selling a lie when we tell new dancers that this dance is really "for" all ages, body types? Sure, anyone can learn it, but should we tell people upfront "but don't expect to perform if you aren't Barbie"? ,f::

I don't know.....

But I did see an 8-month pg dancer at a hafla and thought it was fantastic that she was out there. I loved it. And she danced well, in spite of her obvious limitations.

Yeah, I've often wondered the saaaaaaaame exact thing.

That's why, in hindsight, I admire one of my first teachers for being so forthcoming about the image thing. She told me exactly what I should do differently with my makeup, costuming and look in order to be stageworthy. While this totally jarred with the "every woman is a goddess" ideology that I'd come to love, she was technically right - we are in the entertainment biz, and the standard for "commercial" performing is different from the standard for hafla performing, or living room dancing, or whatever.

Like it or not, it is what it is. There are times when the standard frustrates the living crap out of me. Sometimes, I wish I could smack the typical hookah bar owner upside the head - the best dancers I know, locally, are not dark-haired, olive-skinned, Mediterranean-looking Haifa-esque hotties with perfect slim hourglass bods. Unfortunately, it's not always so much about dancing or art as it is about moving wallpaper

Maybe someday, BD will become integrated into the American mainstream and the general public will see that blondes, redheads, plus-sized women, petite women, and anybody else who doesn't fit that Orientalist stereotype can make this dance look beautiful. I really, really hope this happens sometime before I retire from the dance. 'Til then, I think teachers owe it to their students to describe the scene with candor. Of course, it's not always easy to find a decorous way to say that entertainment biz standards apply to our dance form. But I do think it bears mentioning that any new pro might be in for something of a shocking awakening when they leave the safety of the classroom and start performing at a commercial level...

It's not a lie to tell any woman (or man for that matter), that they can belly dance at any shape, size or age. However, it is a lie to tell them that they can have successful professional careers. Some women can get break through the "glass ceiling" so to speak, but most can't.

Congrats on your pregnancy, btw. Hope you are healthy and happy!

It depends on how you interpret belly dance is for everyone. I haven't seen teachers discriminate against who is in their shows. It is inclusive in that sense. However, some alleged idea that we're all accepting is BS. Belly dance does not always attract the most enlightened group of people, which is why you unfortunately get fellow dancers who will make nasty comments about other dancers.

When it comes to being hired out, it's sad that you have to fit a certain look, but it is just the reality... I don't know how it's going to change. Actresses face the same issue.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

we are in the entertainment biz, and the standard for "commercial" performing is different from the standard for hafla performing, or living room dancing, or whatever.

Like it or not, it is what it is.

I've found this is to be very, and often painfully, true. I love that when it comes to the community, if you've got a love for the dance and a good attitude, there is a sense of all-inclusiveness from other dancers, regardless of size, shape, age, etc...Some of my favorite dancers do not fit the "commercial" mold and there is great respect for the pure talent and genuine love they bring to my area.

Over the last few years, I've been witness to some of the top dancers in my area being avoided or cut from pro gigs/restaurants because of age or size. It's pretty hard to witness and I know I will be on the receiving end at some point eventually, hopefully later rather than sooner. It's reality and I accept it, but I certainly don't agree with it or care for it at all.

(Re age): My coach has always been extremely candid about the realities of the life-span of the professional bellydancer = it's not that long.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Belly dance does not always attract the most enlightened group of people, which is why you unfortunately get fellow dancers who will make nasty comments about other dancers.

Yes, and this is why you DON'T want to be around me if another dancer says "Belly dance is made for REAL women. Real women have curves!" I have been known to challenge the living crap out of anybody who says that. Probably because a lot of dancers actually believe that is a body-positive, empowering thing to say. (And I'm sure the opposite holds true when thin dancers slam those who are curvy - it's all about uplifting one's own type by bringing the "other" down).

When it comes to being hired out, it's sad that you have to fit a certain look, but it is just the reality... I don't know how it's going to change.

I don't know if it ever will change, but it always helps to think that for every gig I lose because I'm not "ethnic" looking, or not curvy enough, there's somebody out there who finds blue-eyed petiteness striking. You try not to take it TOO personally, even if it feels totally irrational ,r:;

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Yes, and this is why you DON'T want to be around me if another dancer says "Belly dance is made for REAL women. Real women have curves!" I have been known to challenge the living crap out of anybody who says that. Probably because a lot of dancers actually believe that is a body-positive, empowering thing to say. (And I'm sure the opposite holds true when thin dancers slam those who are curvy - it's all about uplifting one's own type by bringing the "other" down).

"The REAL women have curves" statement is not mean to shoot other women down who don't have curves and I hope you won't take remarks like that personally. The "real women have curves" phenomenon did not arise to slam thin women...rather it was coined as a way to shift our society's (read media) paradigm of the emaciated models and actresses who tend to loose their natural women-ness.

Have you seen the movie? [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Women_Have_Curves]Real Women Have Curves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I really liked it and it's about a young woman embracing her shape at any size as a way to love herself and to love other women.

While the "The REAL women have curves" statement might not have been coined to mean something derogatory to those who are less curvy, but that IS how the term is often now used (implying that willowy or slender types are less womanly, less desirable, or whatever). I used to be MUCH thinner than I am now (and I am still thin), and I was on the receiving end of that comment quite often, and it was never once meant to bolster the self image of those who have curves, it was very clearly a snide (and jealous) remark aimed at making ME feel less worthy.

Yes, this is true, I've seen thin women (myself included) excluded from gigs, as well, because they were not "ideal."

I'm also talking about some non-pro and semi-pro shows here...I've heard snarkiness from dancers about other dancers' figures, and I've witnessed discrimination towards some dancers from the so-called "accepting" community, as well.

Depending on the area of the country in which you live, it's often dancers dancing for dancers, or at least for dancers' families. Frankly, it's up to us as dancers to challenge the stereotypes first, with the hopes that the general public will eventually follow.

As for Real Women Have Curves, I remember watching that in a Women's Studies class in college. That documentary itself was actually very body positive and uplifting! I really enjoyed watching the movie, and all of the ensuing discussions in class. (Who DOESN'T love a class where you're graded on your ability to rant about unfair beauty standards!)

As Jazirah said, a few people have bastardized the title of that movie into a dig against women who are thin, naturally or otherwise. And that's what really gets me. Being a woman, or identifying as a woman, is far more complex than having one body type - or even female body parts, when it comes to transgendered individuals....but that's a whole 'nother discussion. So carry on ,r:;

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Frankly, it's up to us as dancers to challenge the stereotypes first, with the hopes that the general public will eventually follow.

Yes! ..g.:

Originally Posted by Khalilah

Over the last few years, I've been witness to some of the top dancers in my area being avoided or cut from pro gigs/restaurants because of age or size. It's pretty hard to witness and I know I will be on the receiving end at some point eventually, hopefully later rather than sooner. It's reality and I accept it, but I certainly don't agree with it or care for it at all.

This is exactly how I feel. Some of the most amazing, experienced dancers I know are so not the prototypical bellydancer, and that's what makes them interesting and endearing to me. I really love to see women of all ages, cultural backgrounds and sizes making the dance their own. Conformity sucks.

I'm not a restaurant owner, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn - but don't restaurant patrons get bored looking at the same type of dancer all the time? You wouldn't eat the same thing every day. So why not encourage a little diversity and variety?

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Okay, so I get really frustrated about this. We as dancers advertise bellydance as a dance for women of all ages and body types.

"Lie" is not the proper word here, IMHO.

The main problem here is a blurring of the line between pro and non-pro dancing. We do our students no service by not teaching them the difference between these two sides of the coin.

Or, in other words, the separate facets of the dance: social dance and staged/theatrical/art dance. Is this really any different from other artistic expressions? (music, painting, whatever)

Is this really any different from any other athletic activites? Recreation ice skaters will not audition well for paid gigs, nor will they attract a crowd of people happy to pay to see their skating. Recreational skiers are not serious contenders for the olympic team.

And by the way, even for professional belly dancing, the acceptable body parameters are way broader (no pun intended) than those of ballet.

Agreeing with ssipes. I think that while we encourage EVERYONE to dance, that we also make sure people also understand that just because you want to do it and enjoy doing, doesnt mean that you are "employable" (based on either lack of technical ability or not having the look the audience is paying for).

And Satinworship, I dont think restaurant patrons get sick of the same look, its not like the very same people are sitting there night after night, ya know?

It IS very sad that at dancer oriented events that people cant calm the cattiness (or at least be more subtle with it), AND just be more encouraging.

I recently saw a much older woman perform at a dancer attended event - she wasnt tenchnically fabulous, but she wore an absolutely stunning costume (that had some seriously drool worthy sleeves) that was very flattering on her and she danced her heart out. Was it perfect, no. . . but was it beautiful? YES. She so completely loved what she was doing that it just filled up the room. I would hope that everyone in the room was open enough about her age or whatever other issues they could have had with her, so that they too could experience that moment of her joy and find her as inspiring as I did.

(I seriously think I would have slugged someone if that had broken my joy of watching her dance with nasty commentary. LOL)

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'm not a restaurant owner, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn - but don't restaurant patrons get bored looking at the same type of dancer all the time? You wouldn't eat the same thing every day. So why not encourage a little diversity and variety?

I can't speak on behalf of all restaurant owners, but I can certainly relay what one point-blank said to me regarding the dancers he hires. He is very specific and not shy about not using a dancer who doesn't have a "marketable" look (again to be clear, HIS view of "marketable," not mine)...if they are heavier or older, he doesn't hire them; of, if they are current house dancers that have grown older or heavier, he phases them out of rotation. He claims that it's in response to customer feedback. This, I fully believe, as customers can be quite vocal if they don't like what they see. He does not mince words and runs a successful business, but has a great appreciation for good dancers - he just can't always use every good dancer to further his business. Does it suck that there are such superficial factors present in the workplace? Absolutely.

To go back to one of Sonja's original comments about dancers being generally snarky and rude about other dancers' physical attributes, it's unfortunate that some choose the schoolyard approach to being involved in such a diverse community, but they will surely miss out by being so catty. Some of the best and most travelled dancers are older, and sometimes possibly heavier - if they turn off or insult these women in the spirit of being bitchy or clique-ish, they've just shrunk their own little world by a LOT and often alienate themselves from the rest who see past physical traits to enjoy the DANCE and learn from each other. There is a lot to learn beyond what is "marketable," "popular" or "attractive."

Originally Posted by Khalilah

To go back to one of Sonja's original comments about dancers being generally snarky and rude about other dancers' physical attributes, it's unfortunate that some choose the schoolyard approach to being involved in such a diverse community, but they will surely miss out by being so catty. Some of the best and most travelled dancers are older, and sometimes possibly heavier - if they turn off or insult these women in the spirit of being bitchy or clique-ish, they've just shrunk their own little world by a LOT and often alienate themselves from the rest who see past physical traits to enjoy the DANCE and learn from each other. There is a lot to learn beyond what is "marketable," "popular" or "attractive."

Yes. Older, more established dancers often have a lot to teach us young pups!

And to your last point, it's too easy to get caught up in the rat race of marketablity....sometimes, we forget how good it feels to dance for dancing's sake.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

And to your last point, it's too easy to get caught up in the rat race of marketablity....sometimes, we forget how good it feels to dance for dancing's sake.

Word.

I consider it one of the ills of our societies, particularly here in America, that we are sold such a narrow definition of beauty. Customers in a restaurant, club owners, etc, like the rest of our society, are trained from childhood by the media to believe that a certain set of aesthetic parameters equate beauty and anything outside that relatively small set is undesirable. I find it sad and small minded and utterly frustrating.

I think that working dancers in the Middle East in the past (and perhaps still now to some degree) had a slightly different set of parameters, but I feel like those parameters are narrowing more and more as American media spreads (along with other media outlets with similar aesthetics) across the world in favor of the extremely slim with ample bosoms.

It is a huge disservice to our culture, to our individual women and men, to everybody to allow this to become our personal aesthetic. Beauty can be found in such a broad range of shape and size and color if we are willing to see it. I sometimes have to remind myself to consciously choose to recognize beauty where television and magazines tell me it doesn't exist, particularly when it comes to myself.

My point being...it isn't just a problem with belly dance, it is a problem with our culture and in the end, all of us.

Originally Posted by shems

I consider it one of the ills of our societies, particularly here in America, that we are sold such a narrow definition of beauty. Customers in a restaurant, club owners, etc, like the rest of our society, are trained from childhood by the media to believe that a certain set of aesthetic parameters equate beauty and anything outside that relatively small set is undesirable. I find it sad and small minded and utterly frustrating.

I think that working dancers in the Middle East in the past (and perhaps still now to some degree) had a slightly different set of parameters, but I feel like those parameters are narrowing more and more as American media spreads (along with other media outlets with similar aesthetics) across the world in favor of the extremely slim with ample bosoms.

It is a huge disservice to our culture, to our individual women and men, to everybody to allow this to become our personal aesthetic. Beauty can be found in such a broad range of shape and size and color if we are willing to see it. I sometimes have to remind myself to consciously choose to recognize beauty where television and magazines tell me it doesn't exist, particularly when it comes to myself.

My point being...it isn't just a problem with belly dance, it is a problem with our culture and in the end, all of us.

This! This was what I wanted to say, but didn't perhaps articulate as well. Thank you, Shems!

There are PRO dancers who are larger or older who do exceptionally well--among dancers (i.e. workshops, stage performance). I can perhaps understand a restaurant owner being "obliged" to cater to the whims of the crowd, but a theatrical performance? I think if a dancer has talent, a dancer has talent.

I am currently writing an editorial for a belly dance publication about this very topic. It is one I have strong opinions about. When it is completed I will post the link to this thread. :o)

Originally Posted by shems

My point being...it isn't just a problem with belly dance, it is a problem with our culture and in the end, all of us.

I couldn't have said it better, myself. This is why I stopped subscribing to fashion magazines and watching TV years ago. It's absolutely depressing to think how narrow our society's ideals are.

I don't ever plan to have kids, but I really feel for those of you who have teen/preteen daughters...

We can't change the General Public's perception of beauty. They are generally too blinded by the less-than ideal figure to spot fantastic dancing. We just need to be thicker skinned and accept the fact that not everyone will be a professional dancer, and those who are only get to do it for a limited time.

All things considered, as someone who has been large, small and somewhere in between, there is never a "good" body for a woman in today's society.

Supermodels are photoshopped to death, plus sized models have issues getting work (unless it's a "We love heavy girls" editorial, and those are condescending.) We are too tall, too short, too thin, too fat, too dark, too light, too curvy, not curvy enough.

It is up to those hiring us to make the final judgment as to what is "marketable." Different audiences like different things and we have to accept the fact that part of what we do is based on what we look like. If it wasn't a partially looks based industry then why spend money on makeup, padding, fake hair, fake eyelashes, glitter, and expensive costumes. If it was a talent driven industry things would be quite different.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

All things considered, as someone who has been large, small and somewhere in between, there is never a "good" body for a woman in today's society.

You hit it right on the nose

And even if you are fortunate enough to have a perfect body, somebody will probably accuse you of being a "butterface." (As in, "Everything's hot about her - but her face")

Jeez, can you guys tell I'm feeling extremely cynical today?

If it's any consolation to you, by ignorant-audience standards, Aida Nour, Fifi Abdo, Mona al Said, and Dina are all too old and fat to dance at paying venues, too.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If it's any consolation to you, by ignorant-audience standards, Aida Nour, Fifi Abdo, Mona al Said, and Dina are all too old and fat to dance at paying venues, too.

Oh, but of course. And Didem would never get a job at Hakim's Hookah Lounge. Poor girl would've been too skinny before her breast augmentation, and is now too blonde and not "ethnic" enough!

I have to play devil's advocate. OTOH, I have heard some elderly dancers as well as some bigger sized dancers automatically judge other dancers who are thin and petite, and automatically assume she is a beyatch just because she is young and/or thin. I hear a lot of about bigger sized dancers and older age dancers being criticized, and it's true, it happens a lot. But when I see the younger, thinner dancers getting catty remarks like this, I want to tell them to practice what they preach as well.

Okay, off the soap box.

I guess congrats have to go out to our "beauty" industries for convincing us we all need improvement. I've bought it to a certain extent, I admit, after all I do shave my pits, pad my bras and wear make-up when I dance. But I have to say it really irked me that when I gave the fitness facility I teach at new photos of me to use in promotion for my classes (they insist that they have to make all the fliers posted in facility), they chose to use some uber-slim stock photo belly dancer's torso instead of my smiling mug and slightly more supple gut. I keep telling myself it was because the background was too busy (location shoot), but if they do it again after my next shoot I'm going to make a fuss...

People judge, regardless of their size or age. That's why we get questions like "Can I belly dance if I don't have big hips?"

The other comment I think grates on me is that you have nothing to say in your dance unless you're x age. WTH?

I'm all for promoting diversity in our dance, be it age, race, gender, body type, but I'm with Satin about talking other people down, even if it isn't intended.