Thread: historically accurate??? no sequins at outside performances???

Hi all -

I am seeking to better understand my teacher's desire that for outside performances of any kind (specifically a city festival/art fest), we can't wear anything with sequins or fringe, like a bedlah. A coin bedlah is fine with her. For this performance, we seek to accurately represent the two sets of songs (egyptian set and american style set).

I am feeling frustrated with her decision and I don't want to feel that way.

I could understand if this were for a Renn Faire or something like that, but I have to say I am baffled by these requirements for a city fest or art fest though.

Maybe she is trying to get people to go with a more covered/ethnic look?

Our first set is egyptian based dances. We are wearing sleeveless black L. Rose lycra dresses (straight style with the side open) with a sweetheart neckline and black lycra gauntlets and a wavy coin hip scarf. I'm trying to convince her we should wear bedlah belts with fringe. The second set for american based dances she'd like us to wear pieces and layers, consisting of what I'm not sure, but probably some kind of top and another coin item (I have an assuit coin belt that will work). She wants us to wear a black skirt and layer other colors. ugh I don't understand the reasoning behind it. When I've asked her she looks at me like I'm the troublemaker.

She's not the only one who feels this way, I'm not sure why. I do know that natural lighting will play up any inconsistencies (quality or style-wise) in different styles of typical beaded/sequined bedlah belts. In restaurant or stage lighting, you get glitz that can tie different belts together visually. On a day-lit stage, it might just look irregular.

I might be on your side if you all have the same belts, and they all fit well. But I've seen a video with a troupe wearing all different "traditional" bedlah belts outside, and it really did not look good in daylight.

that makes sense about the different bedlah belts in daylight, but in the first set we're all wearing the exact same style and color dress. I guess I don't like wearing a coin scarf for a performance, and I should perhaps get over it. This is the only dance outlet in Fargo and I don't want to lose it.

There is no "historical" reason not to wear sequins outside.
If you look at Ghawazee dancers, they have sequins on their costumes and mostly perform outside.

I guess it comes more from an American point of view, where Tribal Style was "invented" for Ren fairs, i.e. dancing on open air stages.

I have danced outside for many occasions (birthday parties etc.) and my audience certainly expected me to wear a glitter costume!

MEISSOUN

"I guess it comes more from an American point of view, where Tribal Style was "invented" for Ren fairs, i.e. dancing on open air stages."

maybe that's where she is coming from, I'm going to talk with her about this again tomorrow night after practice. None of us dance tribal. I, too, think the audience expects something a little nicer than a coin scarf…it's our opportunity to show them good costuming and educate the general public. And sparkles are so pretty!!!

People love the costumes in general! I see no reason not to wear sequins..it seems weird. Maybe your teacher doesn't look good in sequins like you do! Haha..good luck..and OH....fringe too...people love it!

Maybe not all the students HAVE a bedlah belt to wear? Usually when a teacher recommends coin belts it's because she's working with a fairly new group of students and doesn't want them to feel like they have to invest a lot of money?

just grasping at straws here.

I agree with you!!! Tomorrow night I'll share my feelings and ask her to explain her reasoning. thanks hon!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Maybe not all the students HAVE a bedlah belt to wear? Usually when a teacher recommends coin belts it's because she's working with a fairly new group of students and doesn't want them to feel like they have to invest a lot of money?

just grasping at straws here.

yes, I'm grasping at straws, too. I don't understand. We all have multiple bedlahs, nice ones they bought from me, haha.

The professional troupe (shimmy sisters), consists of three people at the moment, my teacher, myself and another dancer. We consider ourselves equals and sisters in spirit. (Two additional shimmy sisters have moved away, and one is pregnant and not performing). I was ill for four months and have recovered recently and starting dancing again. My teacher had a hip replacement and is recovering. Because two of us were out of commission for awhile and will be in the foreseeable future until she fully recovers, she started a student troupe, the oasis dancers, which consists of intermediate dancers. They have good skills, but perhaps she thinks they should dress down and not wear bedlahs. Quite frankly I don't understand, and it irritates her to no end when I question what we are wearing. "A black skirt and pieces" is her answer for the second set. That's not enough for me. I want the student troupe to look good in their costumes, not "whatever you want to wear." I did ask the other dancers and the teacher to meet re costuming this Saturday, a week away from the art fest.

Since the shimmy sisters aren't taking any gigs now, if I want to dance, it is with this student troupe. I am trouble I guess, in her eyes, but I have alot to offer this group as well.

Hi Ezma, maybe I could chime in here? If you brought it up from the standpoint of "bang for your buck." Costumes aren't cheap, especially pretty sparkly ones...you'd want to wear it more than let's say, a coin hip scarf that everyone and their dog has? Fringe also accentuates movement so much better too. The hip scarves could be saved for use over the black skirts as a compromise. Oh! Black skirts bustled over bright harems looks very festive, so that idea may not be a total loss.

Just my two cents, best of luck to you!

thanks doozer, that's a great compromise, using the coin scarves for the pieces set and layering harems under black. And I'll work on the fringe belts concept for the black dresses with her, that would certainly accentuate the egyptian movements for the first set. Will take my notes from bhuz with me!

Right on teacher!
I'm sure there are no rules but boy do I agree with her .....why?
here goes:
Cabaret/Raqs Sharki costumes are "night-club" wear with the emphasis on night
Folkloric yes?Those dances are done outdoors.
Ghawazee..wore sequins maybe but not the sort we know and not bedlah or posh frocks.
Nothing looks sillier than a bunch of dancers with the wind blowing chiffon skirts over their heads and gosepimples because they haven't enough clothes on.
Tribal wear :great outdoors as it is similar in look and usuage with folkoric wear.

Secondly not all dancers look good in bedlah and you teacher maybe be coming up with an option to suit everyone.
In the final anaysis you don't like teachers' rules and the explanation she gives for them, you can always choose not to dance with her if you can't respect her decisions.

disclaimer :I'm not American so I have no idea of your "rules,regulations and attitudes"and I certainly don't speak for all Brit dancers, some of whom are perfectly happy to have chiffon skirts blowing over their heads and appear at the opening of an envelope in bright sunlight in a bedlah.,r:;

I found it a bit strange too! ..c::

Last year we did an outdoor gig for Quebec's National Day and we were all wearing "sparklies" in front of general public.

They liked us so much, the organizers called back: they want us again this year! ..l;,



Qamar

Historically speaking (how far back are we going?), sequins and bedlah are accurate, but it's all context isn't it? Then again, sequins are more historically accurate than lycra, for sure. Maybe you should just ask her to explain her vision better (with pictures!).

Originally Posted by EzmaSiddiqah

... for outside, ...we can't wear anything with sequins or fringe,...

She hasn't been walking around on the streets of Montreal lately!

Qamar

I always call a no bling rule for the troupe for Renn and Earth Day outdoor performances. Other than that ...sure!

Here's a Shira article on costuming for way-back-when, since a few people have brought up ren faire.
Belly Dance Costumes for SCA and Renaissance

Maybe she wants to reserve the professional image for her professional troupe, so her pro brand isn't compromised by her intermediate students?

Well, to begin with - given that teacher has been your troupe mate for a while, and given that you did not mention that she is a basket case in that function, it seems safe to assume that she is a somewhat reasonable person and that there is some good reason behind her choices, but that she has not done a good job explaining it.

I suspect that she may want to ensure that everybody matches, and that the students who do not have an extensive costume collection have a chance to fit in. Of course, that is a painful policy for those who have awesome costumes that are just waiting to be worn ;-)

Best idea seems to sit down with everybody, ask her to share her vision (which is gonna help everybody, including those who struggle to get the pieces together), and then make suggestions.

As far as I know, the no-glitz rule was a RennFaire thing, not an outdoor thing. There may be other motives going on here (making rules to prevent someone from wearing a butterfly set or something). The organizers may have requested a more covered look, but generally, it has been my experience that the GP tends to be disappointed when they don't get the glitzy bedlah--although, thanks to Shakira, many of them now think the coin scarf is "professional costuming," too.

Unless you are the soloist, it doesn't make sense for you to be wearing a better costume among a group of amateurs in student costumes, or pushing for them to raise their standards to meet yours. There is a good likelihood that the student group doesn't deserve to be presenting themselves as professional dancers, and rightly so, they don't own professional costumes. I know it may seem like slumming to you after having been in a troupe with higher standards, but it isn't about the costumes. It's about the dancing. A great dancer is a great dancer, no matter what she's wearing, and a good team player is one who supports the rest of the group agreeably and wholeheartedly, no matter what the endeavor. Think of how it must look to the students in the troupe to have you sniffing about how the suggested costumes aren't good enough. They're trying to follow the teacher's lead (which may be the correct advice for their skill level), and you're saying she's wrong. I hate to side with the teacher, but if you find the standards of the student troupe too far below what you can comfortably tolerate from an artistic/integrity view (and as a senior dancer, you're perfectly in your right to make that call), then maybe you would be happier opting out this group and working on reestablishing the pro group, since it sounds like that was a better fit for your objectives as a performer.

BTW, I have nothing against dancers striving for "historical accuracy," but in what part of Egypt do they traditionally wear L.Rose sleeveless dresses?

I prefer simpler, more modest costumes for outdoor events and I require it for anything my troupe does.

1. The bareness of a bedleh outside seems wrong-like wearing an evening dress to a brunch.
2. Dancing indoors gives you an audience that is not full of passersby-little to no chance of "offending" any prude walking by with her family. Some people doesn't want your boobs in their face and wouldn't know to avoid your group at an outdoor festival.
3. Choli's, LRose, whatever, is usually washable. Dancing outdoors=more chances to get dirty, sweaty, etc.

This is my personal opinion, but if a dancer want to dance with my troupe outside, she will wear what I say. No cleavage or bare legs outside. Tummy is fine.

That being said, I have danced at outdoor private parties in full costume, but that was different because of the lighting and because it was private.

there are some great comments here, on both sides of the issue.

where i am, we do 99% of all outdoor, ren or not, in ethnic clothing.....it is the only way we can get respect from non ethnic people. other wise costumed, they look for a pole...sad, but true.if we want to entertain, we MUST educate too. but there towns and events we have never done again. or refuse to do. once a clovis man anonced he was getting his gun from his car, and blowing "the damn arabs away " needless to saw, we did not acccept the invite the next year.
usually we know, when a bunch show up in fatigues....there will be a negative attitude...sad, but true.
perhaps her costume choice is to get you a kinder GP to watch!

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Right on teacher!
I'm sure there are no rules but boy do I agree with her .....why?
here goes:
Cabaret/Raqs Sharki costumes are "night-club" wear with the emphasis on night
Folkloric yes?Those dances are done outdoors.
Ghawazee..wore sequins maybe but not the sort we know and not bedlah or posh frocks.
Nothing looks sillier than a bunch of dancers with the wind blowing chiffon skirts over their heads and gosepimples because they haven't enough clothes on.
Tribal wear :great outdoors as it is similar in look and usuage with folkoric wear.

Secondly not all dancers look good in bedlah and you teacher maybe be coming up with an option to suit everyone.
In the final anaysis you don't like teachers' rules and the explanation she gives for them, you can always choose not to dance with her if you can't respect her decisions.

disclaimer :I'm not American so I have no idea of your "rules,regulations and attitudes"and I certainly don't speak for all Brit dancers, some of whom are perfectly happy to have chiffon skirts blowing over their heads and appear at the opening of an envelope in bright sunlight in a bedlah.,r:;

This is my point of view as well.
I didn't get from OP post that teacher said anything about historical? That is just your/our speculation of why?
It depends on the venue, but many outdoor festivals are not suitable for glitzy fringe...for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts. ( I am a post re-reader..l;,)
I appreciate your reasons for wanting a different costume... as a troupe director, I decide on costumes for specific reasons that must take the needs of the whole into consideration. Input is always acceptable, but I do have the final say. I do change my mind sometimes from my original "vision". Not sure how your troupe decision making process works - but after a point if someone keeps questioning my decisions, sometimes we have to chat if something else needs to be worked out? Your teacher may not be thinking you are a "troublemaker", but she may be thinking "Didn't this already get settled?". For me in the end, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
I'm sure this will get worked out and you will have a blast at your perfomance! Happy dancing

What a great thread! Gotta side with the teacher for still another reason, also related to the diversity of an outdoor audience. It is related to the idea that coins generate more of a feeling of ethnicity than bling does. Angry feminists equate "sparkle" with "demeaning". Just a thought...

where Tribal Style was "invented" for Ren fairs, i.e. dancing on open air stages.
?????????????????
we have been paid faire performers for over 10 years.we have NEVER done tribal!

Originally Posted by SandraDances

I prefer simpler, more modest costumes for outdoor events and I require it for anything my troupe does.

1. The bareness of a bedleh outside seems wrong-like wearing an evening dress to a brunch.
2. Dancing indoors gives you an audience that is not full of passersby-little to no chance of "offending" any prude walking by with her family. Some people doesn't want your boobs in their face and wouldn't know to avoid your group at an outdoor festival.
3. Choli's, LRose, whatever, is usually washable. Dancing outdoors=more chances to get dirty, sweaty, etc.

This is my personal opinion, but if a dancer want to dance with my troupe outside, she will wear what I say. No cleavage or bare legs outside. Tummy is fine.

That being said, I have danced at outdoor private parties in full costume, but that was different because of the lighting and because it was private.

This all makes a lot of sense to me.

i got dressed to do a retirement place at 2pm....i got the bra on and did not feel right....i changed to my ren faire bodice...when i got there, they were happy. seems they were concerned about the men "getting to excited".

my friend works at a dance supply store that is not heavily shopped at (they make most their money thru custom orders. because she doesn't have much to do i hang out with her and watch movies on her computer between customers sometimes). they sell shoes, tights, leotards and the like for ballet, jazz, tap, Irish step, lyrical, gymnastics and figure skating. a lot of the people come in and have to get THE EXACT color of tights/neckline of leotard/sleeve style, etc that their teacher said. for example, they cannot get "ballet pink" if their teacher told them "theatrical pink". these are for student/recreational performances and if they buy the wrong kind they can just toss them or use them for practicing in because they cannot wear them on stage. why? because the teacher said (and because they wouldn't match ^_~)
bellydance being rooted in folk dance and usually a solo thing costume matching seems to be taken much more casually than in other dance forms. everything else i would have said has already been said, but i'll add that she does have the final say, and is being much less specific/strict than many other teachers/troupe directors are.