Thread: Making a knock-off...

My friend has a really great belt shape that I want to "steal" by making my own. But I don't want to be a jerk by making hers less unique. In fact, the shape of her belt is so unique, that I am not quite sure if I can pull this off without making a complete rip-off.

The belt is a pretty usual size, maybe a little less wide. The front and back pieces are identical. The outline is five circles touching. The center circle is the largest, and flanked on each side by two circles, each of slightly decreasing size. After the last circle, the belt rounds back out as if to make another circle, but this curves into just a rectangular panel (these front and back rectangles overlap and hook together). But here is the part I especially like: each circle has a cut out circle inside it (the cut outs are the same size, about 1 1/2 inches across) which shows your contrasting skirt or pants. Chunky beaded tassels hang from the little corners where the circles intersect at the bottom of the belt.

Her belt is moss green velvet, all edges and cut outs are trimmed with silver sequins and beads. Then varied medium to large beads in different colors (yellows, golds, greens, and corals) are scattered across the surface of the velvet. It's really lovely. My description doesn't do it justice.

I am wondering, if I made this exact shape in gold, and used a shiny fabric instead of matte (again, hers is velvet), would that be different enough? I could also be careful to make sure my bra did not mimic hers in style or shape.

I'll add that, yes, I asked her if she was comfortable with me using her belt design, and that if we were performing together I would check to make sure I didn't wear mine if she was wearing hers (coincidentally, we each have a different color Caravan Coordinates outfit, so we do this anyway). She said that was fine. But she's so nice, I think she would have agreed even if it was a jerky thing to do. I'll also add that we have a good relationship. I have done costume repair for her because I like to help out and she works a lot of hours. She doesn't particularly like this outfit (especially the color), but it's a bellydance hand-me-down that fits her well and looks great. I guess I'm adding that because if it were her very favorite outfit, then I'd feel even worse.

Would it be rude to mimic her unique belt shape? Or would it be different enough to change the color and make it from shiny fabric? Do I have to move to another state first?

If I were in her position I would be alright with it especially since you've asked and you will be keeping in close communication about what you are wearing so you won't get jokes about being the 'Bobsie Twins.'

Changing the fringe style too might help keep your belt looking too much like hers. If the centers of the circles on her belt are cut out maybe you could keep yours intact and use big sew on rhinestones in the centers? I love the linking circles idea...wish I knew who the designer was.

The belt shape sounds like a Pharaonics "Spiraling Jewels":
https://www.dahlal.com/ctl/showcostu...4_close_lg.jpg
https://www.dahlal.com/ctl/showcostu...04_back_lg.jpg

Hoda Zaki has been making something similar for the past year or two:
Belly Dance Costumes | Belly Dance Store.com: gallery

So . . . your friend's belt may be unique in your area, but there are many like it out there. I had a red & purple Spiraling Jewels (gorgeous!) that had the circles filled in. I really liked it that way because they were filled in with large crystals encircled with rhinestone chain (more bling!) and I didn't have to worry about the top edge of the skirt showing in the circles (my skirt wasn't attached).

I made this one that has a circular belt shape, so in addition to the ones Kiyaana pointed out, there are still more of these out there.

I agree that if you're friend says it's ok and you're careful not to wear it at the same time she is, then go for it.

Kiyanna, that Spiraling Jewels is the exact costume! Or, a modern version of it! Hers is pretty old, has a classic/vintage feel to it, and has a Sheherezade label.

Thanks, you guys! I'm not a jerk! I'm not!..g.:

Imitation is the highest form of flattery...and since you are doing a reinterpretation your friend should be especially flattered, as should the original designer.

Originally Posted by zaynahcantara

Imitation is the highest form of flattery...and since you are doing a reinterpretation your friend should be especially flattered, as should the original designer.

A row of circles is not such a new idea for a belt that it is shockingly innovative, and it's entirely possible that your friend's costume was designed without ever having seen the Spiraling Jewels or Hoda costumes; however, one should remember that there is a fine line between "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and "I've disrespected you as an artist by misappropriating your creative ideas." Costume designers deserve to have their work respected, and copying another person's designs or buying costumes from vendors who sell knock offs of higher-end styles doesn't flatter the original creator. It deprives them of getting credit and compensation for their intellectual property.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

however, one should remember that there is a fine line between "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and "I've disrespected you as an artist by misappropriating your creative ideas."

Let me see if I understand your point. You feel that it is flattering to make a costume inspired by another, but to attempt to reproduce a costume in many details would be a theft of the costumer's livelihood? That would make sense to me. So using a lotus motif with the sequins changing colors across the petals would be ok (Hanan has a couple like that, I think, but here is one: Wild Blue Yonder), but to use the same shape of bra & belt, beaded fringe arranged identically, and lotus blossoms reproduced in every nuance to the last petal would be bad.

When you cross the line of "too much" is harder to define for clothing than it is for plagiarism of the written word. Certainly making your own replica of a current, commercially available, and highly recognized design like a Sahar floating bra seems to be in a different category than using a public-domain source such as a tomb painting to inspire a modern costume. It's the middle ground that is harder to qualify. Saying you want to make a costume in the style of a vintage Abla fringemonster is not the same as actually recreating one of her creations bead for bead, and making a costume with looped fringe doesn't automatically mean you are bootlegging a Great Loop.

FWIW, there's a long discussion about the philosophy of copyrighting garment designs here: A Design for the Copyright of Fashion.

OMG didn't hoda just do a copy of the sahar floating bra? I am sorry but Hoda copies more than anyone I have seen. Unrelated to Hoda I went on someone elses site yesterday and all the costumes advertised were knock offs of emans. It is a hard line to walk. But I think you'll be ok. Try to not look at hers. Find your inspiration from the image of hers in your head. You will be surprised at how it comes out.

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

OMG didn't hoda just do a copy of the sahar floating bra? I am sorry but Hoda copies more than anyone I have seen. Unrelated to Hoda I went on someone elses site yesterday and all the costumes advertised were knock offs of emans. It is a hard line to walk. But I think you'll be ok. Try to not look at hers. Find your inspiration from the image of hers in your head. You will be surprised at how it comes out.

This is starting to get into the territory of undercutters and teachers who make bootleg copies of music and DVDs for students--just because there are people out there doing it doesn't make it right. It's not usually a problem to be "inspired" by someone's style or to recreate an obsolete look, but when you are copying someone's current work to the point that you are doing their job underneath them, then that's too far IMHO.

Eshta, you're one of the highest profile designers on Bhuz. If you created a costume that you felt was really marvelous and unique (not that you don't always feel that way, but a costume that was exceptionally innovative and unlike anything else on the market), how would you react if you went to an event and saw someone walking around in a knock off of it three months later? Would it be flattering that your design was popular enough for someone to "borrow," or would your gracious, open-source attitude of art-should-be-free sharing be more along the lines of the little boy below?



How would it change your feelings if you knew people were coming up to that dancer all evening and asking, "Ooh, is that an Eshta design?" and she said it was, leaving off the part that you weren't involved in the construction of it? What if she takes all of the credit for the design, but the uniqueness of it makes it unlikely that she arrived at the same idea independently? What if she lies and says you stole the idea from her? How much personal stake do you attach to your designs? In other words, how disposable do you consider your creativity as designer? Some people are very protective of their artistic output, and others are more focused on chasing the creative process so that once they have finished a piece, their attitude is "Whatever. I've already moved on to my next big idea!"

ooooh these are all good questions. I totally agree with you that copying someone's work is going too far. Inspired by is a very difficult thing. So when I look at a Hoda design that looks like she almost copied a pharonics spiralling jewels I recognize that but to be honest I don't think twice about it because it is slightly different and not as well done IMO. But if someone just stole my design outright I'd probably feel just like the picture above but I'd get over it really fast. I am used to dancers swooping in and stealing gigs, shows etc...
I do keep dated photo archives but still all these questions are so thought provoking! I hope I never have to deal with someone stealing my designs! But inspired by I am ok with. I have even had people email pictures of things that they have made based on an inspiration from something of mine.
But my point to try to help the OP was that if you step back from the design you love and only work off a mental image you might find a path to your own design. You might surprise yourself.

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/540129-post60.html

I'm not going to say anything, but please look at this in regards to this thread. Thank you.

yep. that was a costume inspired by an asi haskal. Not made the exact same way. I have made several naked dresses. Some inspired by Asi Haskal, Randall Christiansen and by Jillina's naked dresses. The beading and construction is totally different. Like I said - inspired by is a very difficult line. I think we have given the OP a lot to think about with her belt shape dilemma. And Tourbeau gave me lots of questions to ask myself. But if you want to keep trotting out examples then we can do that all day.

I fully plan on making something like Sandras Pharonic. Just so ya'll know.LOL! Bella will NOT for any amount of money make a reproduction of any custom costume and some of the similar ones she reproduces of that gorgeous thing are only like in color and nowhere near as beautiful IMHO.

I plan on just gathering the material and sitting down to remember what I really liked and skeching it out to fit my body type. Or sendign the drawing to Bella...

I don’t think it is necessary to trot out other examples or spend any more time on this thread calling professional costumers copycats. I’m sure there are more examples from all levels of the costumer strata, local and international…but I doubt there is any way to continue down that road on that without folks looking catty or unprofessional or flouncy.

It happens. It happens intentionally and unintentionally. Inspiration/homage/iconographic referencing/borrowing ideas but putting your own spin on them/copying…is not always (almost never) a clear-cut issue. What reads as very different up close can easily become nearly identical on stage. Bellydance fashion, like any fashion, is subject to trends and the resurgence of certain styles and motifs, which complicates the issue…is it on trend and part of a larger fashion gestalt, even if the dates are slightly different, or is it a rip-off.

And just like in fashion, I think there is a huge differences between a private individual who skirts the issue when making something for herself/ a costumer who takes orders and feels the pressure to agree to do something like another costumer for a customer/a costumer who, without customer pressure, make her own version of another designers wears without any nod to the inspiration source/creepy rip-off vendors on ebay.

So, OP. If your friend is comfortable with this and you are working with an eye and bead to make this fairly common motif different enough that it is your own…bead on! The fact that you worry about the ethics is a good sign and I suspect it will help you edit and create with a mind towards the stickier issues..and you’ve always got us to bounce things off on.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing knock-offs for yourself if you acknowledge the inspiration, actually. And so long as it's not identical (which, given beading etc it's seldom likely to be). And I know that when I have a friend make me something I can't make myself, I will quite likely go "see this costume? This is the kind of line I want only with this and this." But I would feel uncomfortable if said friend then called the costume their own design and tried to sell similar costumes as "unique designer originals". If they said "I based it on an Eman costume I saw and made XYZ change and embellished it this totally different way" then that is fine by me.

I'd feel even more uncomfortable if they constantly put down other sewers' work, and I wouldn't want to give them my business. It's like dance teachers - if a teacher is constantly slagging off the teaching/dancing of a teacher they dislike, I'm not going to feel comfortable going to her classes. (If you dislike someone personally, sure, feel free. "I can't stand so and so personally but she's good at what she does" is fine by me.)

This is all moot mind you because I've never actually commissioned a costume yet...

I guess I am not so hung up on total uniqueness because a) hardly anyone here has designer costumes anyway b) we all make our costumes ourselves so they're all "unique" really and c) I know quite a lot of people who sew professionally or semi-professionally and they'll copy things happily because that is what they do. They'll usually put their own spin on it, but they are professional seamstresses and their job in life is to sew pieces of material together. There are only so many ways you can do that. I have a friend who is a tailor and HE bases some of his stuff off 19th century patterns... and he doesn't lie about it. In fact he is quite proud of it. He could tell me the exact differences between the original patterns and his but he doesn't pretend the work is entirely born from his own brain. No garment really is. The subtle differences in cut, finish etc are what make his garments his as opposed to the tailor down the road's.

But these people are not dress designers, rather clothing manufacturers, and their pride is in their cut, fit, finish and the quality of the garment they have made for a customer.

*comes back*
When I say knock off I don't mean an exact copy, just to be clear. I mean "inspired by". And, if it's possible to purchase the garment you want within your own budget then I think it's nicer to purchase said garment, if you want to support a costumier. I'd buy Melodia knockoffs if I could be certain they'd FIT because Melos are expensive and crazy hard to get, but if I wanted a corset belt I'd buy Tempest's pattern or one she had made. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

*comes back*
When I say knock off I don't mean an exact copy, just to be clear. I mean "inspired by". And, if it's possible to purchase the garment you want within your own budget then I think it's nicer to purchase said garment, if you want to support a costumier. I'd buy Melodia knockoffs if I could be certain they'd FIT because Melos are expensive and crazy hard to get, but if I wanted a corset belt I'd buy Tempest's pattern or one she had made. Does that make sense?

Yup,
There are some parallels between going with a local, less expensive costume seamstress and asking for/getting her take on, say, a Sahar and going to any mall and getting the ready-made-you-can-afford (and they might be pricey and well made!) interpretations of the big name big bucks runway designers.

There is a reality of economy and the market that can't be ignored when looking at costumers and customers. There are customers who can afford to always buy X,Y,Z and costumers who can afford eshew trends and inspirations and be very different and original...but the majority...nope.

Exactly - nobody's going to think my fakey Sahar (if I made one) was a real Sahar, but any belly dancer would recognise the bra style. It would be silly me pretending it was my idea completely. OTOH having said that, I don't blame any costumier for doing their own take on said bra. You can't exactly sneer at every fashion designer in the whole world ever because they copied Mary Quant and shortened skirts!

Costuming, like all the garment industry, is about supply and demand. People want Bra X, the costumiers will make Bra X!

ETA: Oh, and in the unlikely event I made a costume and someone said to me "is that an EMAN???" I would of course go "HA HA NO WAI I made it from cheapo material I got at Kutwell Fabrics for MERE PENNIES". We're big on showing off our bargains here though. It's almost culturally embarrassing to admit you spend gazillions on a dress. Far better to say "I got it in the sale, 50 percent off!" even if it still cost thousands.

I don't really see what the issue is with knocking off a costume so long as an individual is making something for themselves, not to sell.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I don't really see what the issue is with knocking off a costume so long as an individual is making something for themselves, not to sell.

Heck, I think taking inspiration from other costumers is usually ok when one IS selling product. It would be foolish not to keep a pulse on the trends, what is selling well, new innovations in design and structure. One's own voice is important, but knowing what the market likes to hear is also essential.

That's why it gets a bit awkward when I read costumers calling other costumers copycats when they don't need to (sorry, Eshta...but you are far from the only example of this so please don't think I am attacking you, you're just the example occurring in this thread)...even if it IS true, which I don't want to comment on...because I doubt there are many costumers out there (with some plausible trailblazing exceptions) who could do that without some of his or her own creations being brought forth and pointed at in a similar manner (as happened). Some amount of inspiration and cross-pollination is ESSENTIAL to survive and profit.

Don't worry I don't feel attacked. And I have always gotten lots of inspiration from other designers and if it is directly apparent I try to mention it alongside the costume. And when you look at costumes out there you will see the cross-pollination easily. Some more than others I have noticed. Some only do their version of what is the hottest design at the time and some push beyond and make truly original designs. This isn't just something costumers should be aware of but consumers too.
I get lots of emails asking me to copy this or that. My personal stock answer is that I will not copy.
There is nothing wrong with saying that so and so's costume is very similar or almost a copy of another. It happens all the time. Even more frequently in fashion. The belly dance costume market is not really big enough to allow for all kinds of crazy and unique costumes if that's what you are doing for a business. We are still a pretty conservative bunch. That's why it's fun to work as a costumer on a movie or stage production. Both of which I have done many times.

The problem is that this is a very slippery slope. I understand that clothing is held to a different standard of creative ownership than writing or music, so perhaps a better comparison would be choreography. At what point has a dancer gone too far in "knocking off" someone else's routine? Say that I find a video on YouTube of a performance I like. Can I copy it without contacting the originator? Can I perform it hundreds of miles away at a non-paying venue without the dancer's permission? Why not? Isn't this conceptually the same sort of "harmless" knock-off I'm pulling on the costume designer? I'm taking someone else's idea, possibly changing a few little things, maybe unintentionally corrupting a few others, then using this new product to advance my stature in the dance community without giving the originator proper credit. What right does she have to complain? I'm providing a flattering reflection of her trendy and creative style by co-opting a product that she sells to her students...behind her back...without her permission.

Costume knock offs are in the same gray area as choreography when it comes to misappropriating "look and feel." There isn't an argument for making your own copy of someone else's costume design that can't also be applied to choreography "borrowing." I could make myself a Sahar-style costume for $60, and I never had any intention of paying $350+ for a Sahar-made version of the same look, so it's not like I took money out of Sahar's pocket. Yeah, it's also not like I ever had any intention of flying to Omaha to take a private lesson with Tilly on YouTube to learn her choreography, either. Neither of them will be any the wiser if I copy their work, and neither of them would have much recourse to stop me if I did.

If people can agree that it's wrong to steal another dancer's choreography, and it's wrong to bootleg media--especially when it's material coming from small-fry, one-of-us producers like Serpentine and Cheeky Girls, why is it open season on the people who try to make a living making costumes for us? How come the honor system falls apart when it's time to respect their work? Why is it so hard to agree as a community that if you can't (or don't want to) buy the real thing, then at least change enough of the design that you've used the source as inspiration to make something new, instead of just ripping off the original concept?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The problem is that this is a very slippery slope.

I think we've all said as much.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Why is it so hard to agree as a community that if you can't (or don't want to) buy the real thing, then at least change enough of the design that you've used the source as inspiration to make something new, instead of just ripping off the original concept?

I think everyone on here has pretty much said "go for inspired by, not imitation" and "When making the same for personal use, say as much!"...so I get your argument and all... but I wonder who you are arguing against.

Ozma, I'm not arguing with anyone or calling anyone out. I was merely pointing out that there is an ironic divergence of policy within the community about creative property ownership. Many people would consider it wrong to copy a dance routine off YouTube without permission, but not to copy the costume the dancer is wearing.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Ozma, I'm not arguing with anyone or calling anyone out. I was merely pointing out that there is an ironic divergence of policy within the community about creative property ownership. Many people would consider it wrong to copy a dance routine off YouTube without permission, but not to copy the costume the dancer is wearing.

It is ironic, but as you noted, in many ways the rules and structure of fashion are a very unique beast. They don't really translate to analogy well.There is much with fashion/costume "inspiration" issues I am not comfortable with, as I tend to view a lot from my fine-arts/illustration background...but my standards for fashion homage and imitation are unlike my standards for almost anything else..they are more fluid.

Tourbeau, just for you I'll be sure never to make anything that resembles a Sahar. In fact, I better stop sewing this belt right now because I'm taking bread from the mouths of people who make costumes for a living. I didn't invent bedleh after all. And Perhaps I should perform only in jeans and a t-shirt with the receipts for same prominently displayed.

I would never, ever EVER copy a dance from YouTube. And I resent the implication that any dancer who makes her own costumes inspired by what's in fashion right now is a thief.

Well, let's see, I'm going to design a costume. I can make a bedlah, a bra and skirt set, or a dress. (Am I copying anybody yet?) I've decided to use holographic lycra from Spandex House. (How about now?) I'd really like to have cutouts down one side. (Now?) What looks good? I get out my many years' collection of Dahlal flyers. I see six costumes with cutouts on the side -- some have rectangles, some diamonds, some smooth curves, some circles. I decide I want diamond cutouts and note that cutouts look good with trim around the edges. (Now?) And I remember seeing Dancer X last weekend rocking a one-sleeved look by Designer K. I decide to do one sleeve too.

At no point have I COPIED any costume. I have been heavily influenced by several. If House of K is the main seller of one-sleeved costumes right now, have I made a "K style costume"? Some people might think so, but picking up a single design element can scarcely be called copying.

Clothing designers create books of inspiration for themselves with photos, clip art, sketches -- from this they synthesize what they do. This is not copying.

Someone who takes a photo of ONE costume and sets out to DUPLICATE IT -- that is something else.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The problem is that this is a very slippery slope. I understand that clothing is held to a different standard of creative ownership than writing or music, so perhaps a better comparison would be choreography. At what point has a dancer gone too far in "knocking off" someone else's routine? Say that I find a video on YouTube of a performance I like. Can I copy it without contacting the originator? Can I perform it hundreds of miles away at a non-paying venue without the dancer's permission? Why not? Isn't this conceptually the same sort of "harmless" knock-off I'm pulling on the costume designer? I'm taking someone else's idea, possibly changing a few little things, maybe unintentionally corrupting a few others, then using this new product to advance my stature in the dance community without giving the originator proper credit. What right does she have to complain? I'm providing a flattering reflection of her trendy and creative style by co-opting a product that she sells to her students...behind her back...without her permission.

Costume knock offs are in the same gray area as choreography when it comes to misappropriating "look and feel." There isn't an argument for making your own copy of someone else's costume design that can't also be applied to choreography "borrowing." I could make myself a Sahar-style costume for $60, and I never had any intention of paying $350+ for a Sahar-made version of the same look, so it's not like I took money out of Sahar's pocket. Yeah, it's also not like I ever had any intention of flying to Omaha to take a private lesson with Tilly on YouTube to learn her choreography, either. Neither of them will be any the wiser if I copy their work, and neither of them would have much recourse to stop me if I did.

If people can agree that it's wrong to steal another dancer's choreography, and it's wrong to bootleg media--especially when it's material coming from small-fry, one-of-us producers like Serpentine and Cheeky Girls, why is it open season on the people who try to make a living making costumes for us? How come the honor system falls apart when it's time to respect their work? Why is it so hard to agree as a community that if you can't (or don't want to) buy the real thing, then at least change enough of the design that you've used the source as inspiration to make something new, instead of just ripping off the original concept?

agree with you