Thread: Using Toran as a Belt: Offensive?

I disassemble and reassemble Indian torans (door hangings) into belts. I know a lot of dancers use these as belts too. However, I am wondering... what would be an Indian's POV on this? Do these items (which I understand to be a way of making guests feel more welcome to the home) have religious connotations, or are they similar to patchwork quilts in America? The indian craft stores sell tons of them in all different shapes and sizes. All I find online is a mention of how the Torans have mirrors to bring good luck, nothing about any possible religious applications.

it is highly offensive here . so are camel tassells.islamic people do not put anything from an animal on their person..unclean. some punjab's find the turban use a mockery.

toran gives those who enter through them ,good luck and welcome.lol, not what i would want over "my door".

Given that in the practice of today's global market, torans are not exactly sacred objects as you point out, but rather mass produced for export, and given that many antique textiles of different use are taken apart in India and re-assembled into e.g. crazy quilts and bags, my guess is that Indians would find this use more a reason for making fun of the wearer. Common sense says that I would not use this costuming piece for an Indian wedding, but if there is an Indian grad student in the audience at an ATS performance at the university's women's day, I would not hesitate wearing it. In general, I have found that Indians seem a bit puzzled by, but nice to belly dancers wearing antique Indian pieces in their costumes.

ETA - And of course, a toran-turned-belt is not a good choice for an oriental-style performance or for an audience from the lands of the dance. Instead, I'd use it for non-traditional performances (esp. ATS) and for an audience that enjoys "it could have been" and does not expect "that's what we do".

Originally Posted by zamora

toran gives those who enter through them ,good luck and welcome.lol, not what i would want over "my door".

Hahahaha! ..l;,

Originally Posted by steffib

ETA - And of course, a toran-turned-belt is not a good choice for an oriental-style performance or for an audience from the lands of the dance. Instead, I'd use it for non-traditional performances (esp. ATS) and for an audience that enjoys "it could have been" and does not expect "that's what we do".

That is the plan. Experimental pieces only.

Originally Posted by zamora

it is highly offensive here . so are camel tassells.islamic people do not put anything from an animal on their person..unclean. some punjab's find the turban use a mockery.

Where are you located, Zamora?

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toran]Toran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I am a buddhist and not offended, but I do think it's a little silly using toran as a costume piece for bd.

Originally Posted by zamora

it is highly offensive here . so are camel tassells.islamic people do not put anything from an animal on their person..unclean. some punjab's find the turban use a mockery.

This is the reason I stopped wearing tassles for tribal- when I saw a picture of a camel wearing them. Gosh, just the other day I saw a picture of two Asian girls dressed in Tribal-fusion garb and one was wearing one of those horse mirror belts on her face. I don't know if it was for fun, posing for the camera or what, but it was kinda distasteful, to me.


Old Indian Mirror Textile Piece

Toran belts are pretty well established as tribal and Ren Faire wear around here. I just realized today that I might want to look into the ramifications. I believe I will continue to disassemble and convert the torans into fitted tie belts for experimental pieces that require strong color, and to make brocade belts with short hanging panels for more general use, such as in festivals or concerts. I appreciate the feedback; daughter's Bharatanatyam teacher is in India for several weeks or I would have asked her directly.

I believe it all depends on context. E.g., Cory's target audience is more ethnic (and I reckon one could also add the label "more conservative"); it's a "duh!" that a string of antique moth-damaged camel tassels with an authentic animal odor is a very ignorant and culturally offensive choice for this audience.

But fortunately, not all tassels come from a sweaty camel butt, there are e.g., hair decorations from Uzbekistan. And, not all audiences are created equal, and not all performances are created equal. As an example at the other end of the scale - at the show for a Carolena Nericchio workshop event, a Flying Skirts tassel belt would be an excellent choice. And, by contrast, at an Arabic wedding, totally different story.

And, shocker of shockers, yes, I have worn one of the above-linked Indian animal head decoration pieces as a face mask. Before anybody faints - I wanted to get into a masked ball at Pennsic (an huge SCA event that can have a bit of a Burning Man flavor) and did not have a mask, all I could dig up in my tent was that textile and a bunch of safety pins - and it did the job. Would I have worn that at an Arabic culture festival? Absolutely no way at all. At one of the more outrageous parties at Pennsic? Hey, yeah - and I was among the most unremarkable, boring guests ;-)

Living in America does have a considerable number of perks :)

i am in fresno california..central valley...farm land.punjab, hyes, turkish,egyptian,persian.. everyone from over there has a place here. perhaps conservative in politics, but love a lot of leg in a circle skirt!
we pride ourselves in knowing the loves and hates of all of our clients.
but knowing what these "costume" parts really are makes me laugh when i see a curtain worn around hips....BTW none of this is "period" to be used at the 2 ren faire we do.there is no ATS etc at faire.

Originally Posted by zamora

i am in fresno california..central valley...farm land.punjab, hyes, turkish,egyptian,persian.. everyone from over there has a place here. perhaps conservative in politics, but love a lot of leg in a circle skirt!
we pride ourselves in knowing the loves and hates of all of our clients.
but knowing what these "costume" parts really are makes me laugh when i see a curtain worn around hips....BTW none of this is "period" to be used at the 2 ren faire we do.there is no ATS etc at faire.

Southern metro here, everyone from over there has a place here, and we rarely show leg at all except at private parties, no matter whether they'd love it or not.

We've never done ren faires ourselves (they don't pay enough) but another local troupe (sisters malek, now disbanded) did one for a few years and got voted #1 Dance Troupe in the 2007 Renaissance Festival Awards , while wearing torans around their hips over patchwork skirts.

I myself don't like the look of the tied torans but I do like the look of the ones I've de-and-re-constructed. I've been making patchwork quilts and a lot of this-from-that-and-that-from-this for almost forty years and with great glee, so this is right up my alley. I don't care where the pieces come from as long as they look good assembled. I VERY strongly suspect that our customer base expects different things from us than yours does from you, and that neither of us would want to switch with the other.

Originally Posted by zamora

BTW none of this is "period" to be used at the 2 ren faire we do.there is no ATS etc at faire.

just like not all audiences are the same, not all ren-fairs are created equal either. some are concerned that at least the people working for them and vending on their grounds are presenting something period, some work under the name of a renaissance fair but would be more accurately labeled as "fantasy fairs", and most are some shade between those extremes.
from that small glimpse, i'd say the one near us used to be like yours, and has become more and more lax over the years as the owners have changed repeatedly.

yeah, our faire's have the purple police...but as a gypsy camp i can get away with more by saying we stole it!
we get paid and it is a good ad. the schools are given work sheets that we sign after our show....

toran gives those who enter through them ,good luck and welcome.lol, not what i would want over "my door".

LOL. Though: just like I don't let everyone I see through the door of my home, those allowed ARE welcome....so.... :) (and on certain days, they need good luck to even get in...) Mwahaha.

RE: tassles
Not all tassles are camel tassles. Apparently, there are/were west coast tribal dancers who have worn actual camel tassles like these:


THIS is the specific item that is majorly offensive to North Africans and other Arabs because it is made for and worn by an animal, thus is unclean. I can't imagine anyone still doing this, given that we are educated about these kinds of things. Artemis Imports still sells them; I wonder who still buys these?

If you make your own yarn tassles and they DON'T particularly look like this specific camel garment, then the association with animals will not necessarily be a problem.

There ARE at least a few traditional costumes that have had tassles or tassle-like elements. One is the yarn belt worn by Tunesian shaabi dancers:


Another are the tassles on long ribbons worn by Egyptian Ghawazee dancers in the 19th century, similar to those worn by Yasmin on the cover of her sagat speak CD:


No these are not raqs sharqi costumes. But if you are assembling a fusion costume for fusion dance at least there is a basis for tassles within certain parameters.

Slight hijack re: turbans

One of the more ridiculous supermarket tabloids has the huge headline proclaming Obama is a Muslim-with proof! The proof seems to be pictures of him in turban.

Snort! Apparently not looking in a lot of dance closets-my own included.

Originally Posted by ssipes

RE: tassles
Not all tassles are camel tassles. Apparently, there are/were west coast tribal dancers who have worn actual camel tassles like these:

What about these?

That is one damn fine looking camel.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

What about these?

Some of those pompoms look just like meleya leff accessories! I guess that intent is everything- as Ssipes says, there are ME costumes that feature tassels, so the taboo seems to be less about wearing gathered bits of wool, and more about wearing something explicitly designed for or worn by an animal.

Going back to the original question, I've seen that style of textile work turned into cushions, bags, bedspreads and pillows, so certainly in the UK there seems to be little taboo attached to making it serve a new function. One of the Asian women I dance with has a couple of gorgeous ATS pieces made from a wall-hanging.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

That is one damn fine looking camel.

Isn't he great?

You know I've wondered about the torans etc myself. As textiles they're really wonderful.

I guess I'd be worried about cutting up a real antique. Some of those are real treasures.

Originally Posted by maurazebra

That is one damn fine looking camel.

..l;,

It wasn't only West coast bellydancers who wore "camel belts" as we used to call them. The troupe I was in (Topkapi) used them in certain instances... and when Topkapi disbanded I ended up with several of them, plus one "look alike" someone made themselves I think - they are cool!

I want to clear out a bunch of stuff I don't use and these will be up for sale. I know some people think "animals = unclean" but then some of us used to wear dog collars too, so there you go. I wouldn't recommend either camel belts OR dog collars for Raks Sharki! But I sure can see wearing camel belts for "tribal bellydance" (whatever that is).

Originally Posted by zamora

toran gives those who enter through them ,good luck and welcome.lol, not what i would want over "my door".