Thread: Corset used for Tribal Costume?

Since I'm a newbie at dance and costume, I don't yet have a first costume, but think it's time to start making one. I do have hip scarves, but nothing else really. I like the coin bras and know they are traditional, but since Tribal is Gypsy clothes, didn't Gypsies wear corsets? Do I coin a corset or do I coin a bra to go over the corset?

Then there's always bolero shirts, but can you do both wear a bra and a corset over a bolero shirt? I have to layer shirt, corset, then bra, but would they all be necessary. Every day wearing clothes of that era are what I'm looking for, but where in history did they not wear a corset?

Just wondering if it was appropriate to wear corsets for tribal costuming and how would it be worn?

Thanks ahead of time!

Originally Posted by sicilianwillow

Since I'm a newbie at dance and costume, I don't yet have a first costume, but think it's time to start making one. I do have hip scarves, but nothing else really. I like the coin bras and know they are traditional, but since Tribal is Gypsy clothes, didn't Gypsies wear corsets? Do I coin a corset or do I coin a bra to go over the corset?

It sounds as if you have quite a few misconceptions going on here, and it is probably good to point out some of those. First, the better term to refer to the the ethnic group often incorrectly called "gypsies" is Roma. The issue can become quite complicated because not all g-people (a term used by Artemis Mourat) are Roma, and because some groups do not appreciate this term and prefer to be called e.g. Sinti where applicable - but all that said, by and large, Roma is the best choice, based on what I have been taught by Artemis, who has been an activist in support of the Romani people for many years. Second, no, Romani people typically do not wear corsets - traditionally, Romani women tend to be involved in keeping the household going and in bringing up their children, tasks that call for practical clothes a woman can move in. Third, there are elements of tribal-style costuming that are based on garments worn by the Romani people, but those tend to be single elements that have been incorporated into Tribal costuming (which is a rather ill-defined concept anyways). Fourth, no, coin bras are not traditional for ME dance, they are an American thing (and a beautiful, flattering and fun thing!)

Originally Posted by sicilianwillow

Since I'm a newbie at dance and costume, I don't yet have a first costume, but think it's time to start making one. I do have hip scarves, but nothing else really. I like the coin bras and know they are traditional, but since Tribal is Gypsy clothes, didn't Gypsies wear corsets? Do I coin a corset or do I coin a bra to go over the corset?

Then there's always bolero shirts, but can you do both wear a bra and a corset over a bolero shirt? I have to layer shirt, corset, then bra, but would they all be necessary. Every day wearing clothes of that era are what I'm looking for, but where in history did they not wear a corset?

Just wondering if it was appropriate to wear corsets for tribal costuming and how would it be worn?

Thanks ahead of time!

I've definitely seen and think its one of the most cool ideas for a bd costume, and seems quite popular w/the cabaret or tribal style dancers! Of course, you'll want to make sure you get a corset that's specially made for dancing aka costume, as oppose to the real ones (that have the stiff boning in them lol).

I think you even find and get some awsome ideas feqom youtube too - just search for tribal bellydance :)

One good place I like is from Ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/id=55052028&s...STRK:MEFSX:SST

hth!

... Fat Chance Belly Dance has online a FABULOUS! video on the roots of the ATS tribal costume: http://fcbd.com/videos/

... for more on the Romani people, here is one of the many wonderful organizations in their support: http://www.voiceofroma.com/

Originally Posted by steffib

... Fat Chance Belly Dance has online a FABULOUS! video on the roots of the ATS tribal costume: http://fcbd.com/videos/

... for more on the Romani people, here is one of the many wonderful organizations in their support: http://www.voiceofroma.com/

Ohhh thank you for these links--very helpful indeed :)

I really dislike seeing any style of middle eastern dancers in corsets. To me it screams burlesque or stripping and NOT belly dance. Plus you can't appreciate our nice isolations and torso/belly movements w/ a corset on.

Tribal costuming is usually decided by the tribe. What is the rest of your tribe (troupe) wearing? Do you not want to have some sort of thematic cohesion amongst the tribe?

Some tribal dancers have adopted elements of Steampunk and/or burlesque, and these costumes can sometimes incorporate a corset or a corset-like garment. I quite like the look myself, but our troupe tends to costume to suit the music (when we're doing choreo), and when we're doing improv, we tend to wear more "typical" tribal gear (bloomers, mirror belts, fringes, bra with coins, kuchis, etc.). We've been talking about incorporating some elements of steampunk into our costumes (probably not corsets, but maybe a bustle-like short skirt to wear with our pants that have a ruffled slit dropping from the knee, and maybe a fascinator in the hair.) However, that likely won't happen until and unless we have a piece of music that we think would call for that style of costuming.

If you're dancing solo, then you might have more leeway, although if you're new, you probably won't be performing solo right away, will you? But if you do, you still want to have some sort of rationale behind what you are wearing. e.g. Is the music more folkloric? Then you might tend more toward bloomers or big skirts, tassels, turbans, etc. Is it more industrial? Then you might tend toward something edgier with a modern flair.

So, I suggest that before you spend money and/or time on costuming, you figure out the whats, whys and wherefores of what you will be wearing. Otherwise, you might end up wasting time and money on something you don't end up using.

It's also probably best to start with some basics: some Melodias, some bloomers, a full skirt, a choli, a bra with coins, kuchi, or small tassels. (Note: many tribal dancers tend toward old Afghani coins, or at least silver coins, vs. shiny gold, which we think of as more cabaret style.) From there, you can mix and match with different pieces, as the need arises, depending on the piece, the venue, etc.

Originally Posted by sicilianwillow

Since I'm a newbie at dance and costume, I don't yet have a first costume, but think it's time to start making one. I do have hip scarves, but nothing else really. I like the coin bras and know they are traditional, but since Tribal is Gypsy clothes, didn't Gypsies wear corsets? Do I coin a corset or do I coin a bra to go over the corset?

Then there's always bolero shirts, but can you do both wear a bra and a corset over a bolero shirt? I have to layer shirt, corset, then bra, but would they all be necessary. Every day wearing clothes of that era are what I'm looking for, but where in history did they not wear a corset?

Just wondering if it was appropriate to wear corsets for tribal costuming and how would it be worn?

Thanks ahead of time!

I've always read that bellydance was indigenous to the Arab world before the immigration of any of the "g-word" ethnic groups. i can't find any of the sources right now, so maybe someone else can speak to that.

i've never seen a corset for any of the cabaret styles, it's more suitable for fusion performances since your costume should reflect the style of dance and corsets come from European fashions (different styles of corset depending on the era)
most corsets were made to reshape the body, constricting it into the shape that was fashionable at the time, so like was said above, you'd need something made for dance costume. an authentic corset would make your movements hard to see if laced loosely, and prevent you from being able to move your torso at all when laced tight.

for folkloric performances, tribal costume isn't appropriate. tribal is not a folkloric dance (and doesn't pretend to be, unless you'd consider it the folk-lore of the US/ California ^_^), and the costuming reflects this. folkloric costumes would vary depending on the style performed (Saiidi, Roma, debke, Kaleji.......)

if you choose the fabrics and colors right you could probably pull off a shirt-corset-bra, but if you don't get the combo and the fit right it could look too busy. i like to sketch ideas before committing to buying materials or doing the work on it, so that i have a better idea of how what's in my head will work. you can trace a picture of yourself and draw on that if you have a hard time with drawing, it makes it easier.

Originally Posted by raqFariha

I've always read that bellydance was indigenous to the Arab world before the immigration of any of the "g-word" ethnic groups. i can't find any of the sources right now, so maybe someone else can speak to that.

In Turkey, the Romani people continue to have a profound impact on oriental dance, both through the music (many of the best musicians have for centuries have been Roma: Deli Selim, Selim Sesler, Mustapha Kandirali are the first that come to my mind) and through the many dancers of Romani descent, from many of the cengi in Ottoman days to more contemporary greats, including, e.g., Didem and the amazing Tulay Karaca. Similarly, in Egypt, the Ghawazee are Dom people - while they are not Roma, they are from an earlier emigration wave out India, and undeniably had a strong impact.

Artemis has a must-read article online, which includes some more coverage on the role of the Roma in on Turkish oriental dance: http://www.serpentine.org/artemis/turkishdance.html

Those links and suggestions were all helpful. I'm solo learning, no troop, but would like to blend if I meet up at any events, would like to be historically correct, but it's not needed being tribal is new anyways, 80s I think or 90s.

I'm thinking tribal skirt, bloomers/ pants, choli shirt, coin bra, but I've seen a half corset on the internet, which would show the belly too. It's just strange that in most eras the only piece of clothing they all have in common is the corset or peasant girl clothes.

I'm not sure what Roma is yet, and sometimes it takes more research for clothing before a dance, so I'll check into it. Another strange thing is they always used to say Gypsies were Italian, I know this is not true, but it's another misconception of gypsy life.

Who are the tribal people this costume and dance is made to imitate? The video from Fat Chance Belly Dance showed them, but they seem to be anyone, anyone who's tribal from China to Africa to Middle East, so what tribes?

I'm impressed that a made up modern belly dance is still very true to history, but its history is the tribes if India. They collect all the differences in tribal dance, made it one, but this dance is definitely different than other belly dances. Which is the original? Turkey has it's own in Turkish Oriental, Egypt had it's own which is more graceful and slower. Clearly Fat Chance Belly Dance is imitating the dance from India.

Is there a great difference in any of the belly dance moves in any style? I guess I can start a strange jewelry collection first off, hat pins, huge earrings, and lots of anything.

Well, lots to think of for sure in planning. I'll start collecting thin fabrics for scarves. They mentioned something lots of dancers have problems with. Their belts slip on their shiny skirts. The skit is cotton so to hold up the scarves and the scarves are wool to stick or cling to the skirts. This is going to be a task for sure.

Thanks again for the help. It's been helpful.

Roma are what are sometime referred to as Gypsies. In Turkey and Lebanon, they have great influence on the music and dance. Many in Lebanon migrated there from Southern Europe during the early part of the 20th century.

ATS style belly dance is an amalgamation of dance styles. It is an American invention which came together mainly from the SF Bay area in the 70's. The reason that there even in the Fat Chance style there appears to be so many different influences - Afghani jewelry, camel tassels, turbans, etc. - is much like their dancing. There was no actual 'tribe' which they were copying as much as they were taking elements from different areas and traditions and fusing it together. The 'tribe' in tribal was the group you danced with.

If you are interested in Roma, check out Artemis Morat as suggested above, Dalia Carila and and dancer named Alexia. If you are interested in one of the purer forms of tribal, FCBD is the mothership. If you are interested in folkloric, Aisha Ali, baby!

Good luck!

{{{HUGS}}}

PS: Tribal dancers, feel free to correct / expand o n / update any of the above. I totally admit, sometimes I am that most dangerous of beings - someone with just enough info to get myself into trouble.

How does one (any kind of) belly dance in a corset? ouch.

Originally Posted by Ahmber

How does one (any kind of) belly dance in a corset? ouch.

I read a suggestion on OD forum that (bigger) belly dancers should wear "spanx". I assume that the poster had never tried to breathe or eat in the things let alone dance (any style) in them..... so I join you in your opinion on corsets in most forms of belly dance or its' off-shoots.

Originally Posted by sicilianwillow

Since I'm a newbie at dance and costume, I don't yet have a first costume, but think it's time to start making one.

Please don't take this personally, but no. Based on the amount of misinformation and confusion being expressed here, a student in this situation would benefit more from concentrating on their education than worrying about costuming now. Dressing up and performing seem like such fun, and beginners are often very eager to be a part of it, but really, there is no rush to get on stage when you don't understand the ramifications of what you are attempting to present--be it the historical representation of the folk dances of a specific ethnic group, or the contemporary culture of the American tribal scene. This is why most teachers limit their beginners' performances to carefully planned group routines, and when you need a costume, your teacher will guide you toward the right one for the occasion. There will be plenty of time for expressing yourself independently in terms of costuming and dance style after you are a little farther along in your studies.

Originally Posted by raqFariha

for folkloric performances, tribal costume isn't appropriate. tribal is not a folkloric dance (and doesn't pretend to be, unless you'd consider it the folk-lore of the US/ California ^_^), and the costuming reflects this. folkloric costumes would vary depending on the style performed (Saiidi, Roma, debke, Kaleji.......)

Of course, you're right. Not sure if you were referring to my use of the word, "folkloric."

I dance both tribal and Egyptian styles, so, of course I'm aware of many of the folkloric styles of dance, such as Saiidi, Khaleegi, Fellahin, etc. In tribal, we don't present traditional folk dances per se. However, we do sometimes use music that has a folkloric flavour (e.g. has mizmar or incorporates rhythms associated with particular folkloric dances). That is what I was referring to.

Our costuming often contains influences that reflect the flavour of the music. For instance, for a piece with a Spanish sound, we'd probably wear our skirts and some flowers in our hair.

Of course, the "traditional" (ATS style) tribal costumes are not traditional folkloric costumes. But, in our troupe at least, the costuming (and the dance moves) will often be chosen to suit the music. This is true in mainstream BD, too, no? However, the expression and interpretation of this will be different with tribal than with mainstream BD, and the OP was asking about tribal costuming.

I think the corsets she's referring to are like these?
http://www.tribalbazaar.com/brocade-corset-tops2.html
Which aren't really corsets as I don't think they have any boning in them, more like cropped bodices c:

Originally Posted by steffib

In Turkey, the Romani people continue to have a profound impact on oriental dance, both through the music (many of the best musicians have for centuries have been Roma: Deli Selim, Selim Sesler, Mustapha Kandirali are the first that come to my mind) and through the many dancers of Romani descent, from many of the cengi in Ottoman days to more contemporary greats, including, e.g., Didem and the amazing Tulay Karaca. Similarly, in Egypt, the Ghawazee are Dom people - while they are not Roma, they are from an earlier emigration wave out India, and undeniably had a strong impact.

oh of course, my impression is simply that the dance was already around, in early forms, before any of the above groups' influences were added to it (i learned that it is a dance native to the Arab world, although where within is not specific because of early documentation problems, and that as the various migrations moved in they needed to make money and often became the performers of it- to suit their audience's tastes). although i don't know as much about Turkish. and like i said, i can't find my sources so im a bit of a failure at this discussion ..l;,

Originally Posted by CalgaryBibi

Of course, you're right. Not sure if you were referring to my use of the word, "folkloric."

yes and no. ^_^ i didn't think you were confused, but wanted to clairify some more for the OP or any other newer dancers reading incase it was taken out of context.

I think she is referring to the type of costume the animators at Disney created for Esmeralda in Hunchback.

{{{HUGS}}}

PS: Nyyrikki - I have a top like the one you linked to. I love wearing it for folkloric with a long off white shirt and harm pants. Still stylized.

This is what the Fat Chance Belly Dance costumes looked a lot like above. They said they omit the jewels on the blouse because they are too hard to dance in, so the coin bra is their invention to replace it with.



I don't think the women above are dancers, but their clothes look similar to the costume.

Regardless of what style a Tribal dancer does, the pants are most important, choli top, coin bra, skirt, hip scarf, and belt are all common no matter which type of tribal you are going to imitate. I can't go wrong in getting those, or trying to sew a pair or two cheaply. I'm getting to now I want to show people what I'm learning. With the groups of moves I know, they won't look interesting at all, unless they are done in costume. I'm not going to paint my face all out or wear a big turban now, but the belt and bra alone are a nice start and make sense of the dance.

Yeah, that's why I asked because I'll show up in all the wrong clothes! That would be a bummer. Thanks for all the replies and I'll patiently add some bling through out these 2 months.

Ah, those aren't corsets. They are Banjara style choli tops. Very popular among some tribal and fusion dancers. (I am not a tribal or fusion dancers, but even I have had a few which I have worn to classes and drum circles.)

These are fun, colourful and, once again being from India, not really belly dance. But, as I said before, as Tribal style is an amalgamation, it can work.

Couple of warnings: some of these are very fragile because many are vintage textiles. Also, if you are at all busty, many have open backs so if you need support, you'll have to either wear it over another top or do some fancy engineering.

Here is a site which you can look at / buy the tops: http://www.tribalsouk.com/index.php?...4a23d11babfee2

{{{HUGS}}}

here is why we were confused about how one would dance in a corset:
Elizabethan corset: http://www.mentionablescorsets.com/elizabethan.html
empire era corset: http://www.mentionablescorsets.com/1820corset.html
Victorian corset: http://www.victoriana.com/corsets/Im...80corset-1.jpg
Edwardian era corset: http://www.corsetheaven.com/corsets/...s_XV_style.jpg

what a tight one, particularly the latter can do to your organs: http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canad...ckery/wom4.gif (black and white line drawing)

I agree with Torbeau's post above, but just as an FYI with the costuming: the garments you're looking for are Choli. they also make cotton stretch choli which are super comfy and i love wearing when i want long sleeves in class during the winter. under a coin bra the cotton stretch ones are great because they fit close to the body and you can see your movements well. i wouldn't pair one with a bolero shirt though, you'd die of heat stroke! ^_~

I'm bigger on top and couldn't wear them anyways. I don't intend to wear a corset either, but it seemed out of context to not have it appear in the costume considering the other items. I have never researched middle east or India and they definitely had their own styles and did not wear western types of clothing. The corset would have to be the ones without the boning. As a full figure type, the corsets seemed more like what I needed for support.

I want the straight sleeve shirts they wear, thought it was a choli, v deep neck were the ones I was speaking of. I asked first about a bolero shirt, but so many mishaps on those with the flingy arms being stuck in the bedlehs and folding back to the point they weren't noticeable, and they weren't used by FCBD in video.

I definitely agree a belly roll would not show using a long corset. One like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEXT-STUNNING-SH...item255e9912dc

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOT-PINK-SEQUIN-...item53ddb52b56

These are a bunch of lingerie urls, but they are the only ones I could find with the short corset. I don't sell lingerie and don't think I would wear something as revealing as this anyways, just wanted to give the example of what corset could work.

If it doesn't fit in the theme of the costume, then I have no intention to have one.

Oh ok, ^ I don't think those are true corsets. The first is a little shirt thing, and the latter is a bustier aka a bra although if it came down a few more inches I'd call it a corset. Corsets come down to the top of the hips for shapping and contain boning (then there are the waist cinchers, stays, overbust, underbust and tight laced kind.) CHeck out raqFariha's links for

If you like the corset-like bustier check out these awesome Neckelmanns...

http://www.neckelmanns.com/id19.html

Love them!
here is another website, these are true corsets...

http://www.fairygothmother.co.uk/

I hope you find what your looking for!

Besides the other good info here - since 2003, I have been integrating and designing corseted elements (not actual boned corsets) into my costuming for both look and a better fit, and these designs have gone on to be used by cabaret, tribal, steampunk, gothic, etc.. dancers around the world - including the corset belt, skorset, corset bra, vests, arm pieces, etc - patterns and related info can be found here: http://darklydramatic.com/patterns.html

Originally Posted by lizaj

I read a suggestion on OD forum that (bigger) belly dancers should wear "spanx". I assume that the poster had never tried to breathe or eat in the things let alone dance (any style) in them..... so I join you in your opinion on corsets in most forms of belly dance or its' off-shoots.

Lol are you talking about undergants for dancers? If so, they can be easily found at any dance store or online:)

Originally Posted by Ahmber

Oh ok, ^ I don't think those are true corsets. The first is a little shirt thing, and the latter is a bustier aka a bra although if it came down a few more inches I'd call it a corset. Corsets come down to the top of the hips for shapping and contain boning (then there are the waist cinchers, stays, overbust, underbust and tight laced kind.) CHeck out raqFariha's links for

If you like the corset-like bustier check out these awesome Neckelmanns...

http://www.neckelmanns.com/id19.html

Love them!
here is another website, these are true corsets...

http://www.fairygothmother.co.uk/

I hope you find what your looking for!

The first link is 1--not meant for dancing but rather, for looks, and 2--the costumes are actually meant for female impersonators (male performers immitatung a female).

And the second link is bostumes but is daily wear (corsets have boning in them, and therefore not designed for the physical freedom needed when dancing).

:)

Long sleeved choli tops:

http://www.tribalbazaar.com/stlabach.html

http://www.fcbd.com/catalog/index.ph...x&cPath=89_112

Pattern for long sleeved choli top:

(Looking specifically for FCBD pattern. Not finding it. Maybe someone else can point the way.)

FCBD Tribal Belly Dance Pattern by Folkwear:

http://www.fcbd.com/catalog/index.ph...roducts_id=273

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by missanime

Lol are you talking about undergants for dancers? If so, they can be easily found at any dance store or online:)

No I am talking about instruments of torture devised to enclose a woman who doesn't like her curves from below her bust to her knees. Try BELLYdancing in that!
http://www.spanx.com/home/index.jsp
You may not have noticed but belly dancers don't wear restrictive underwear..g.:

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

I think she is referring to the type of costume the animators at Disney created for Esmeralda in Hunchback.

{{{HUGS}}}

PS: Nyyrikki - I have a top like the one you linked to. I love wearing it for folkloric with a long off white shirt and harm pants. Still stylized.

This is what happens when people confuse real-life bellydancers with Hollywood.