Thread: $1895??? Seriously???

Interesting thread~

To pay the wage(s) of the seamstress(es) who sewed each paillete onto the skirt and bra, plus overhead...it is worth $1895. At that price few dancers will be wearing a similar one and potentially make resale a challenge.

Discussions of pros and cons of costume styles (personal preferences) occur. Dancers are creative individuals who verbally and artistically express themselves (vomiting blingasaur....lol) in unique ways. It could be any famous dancer wearing the costume and the discussion would still happen. That's how trends develop.

Personal sensitivity? Had a dancer say to my face she hated my risque costume and would never be seen in public in it. (Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) I'll take the comment seriously when she buys me a costume. Perhaps the one for $1895.

Originally Posted by SuzanneAzhaar

Interesting thread~

To pay the wage(s) of the seamstress(es) who sewed each paillete onto the skirt and bra, plus overhead...it is worth $1895. At that price few dancers will be wearing a similar one and potentially make resale a challenge.

Discussions of pros and cons of costume styles (personal preferences) occur. Dancers are creative individuals who verbally and artistically express themselves (vomiting blingasaur....lol) in unique ways. It could be any famous dancer wearing the costume and the discussion would still happen. That's how trends develop.

Personal sensitivity? Had a dancer say to my face she hated my risque costume and would never be seen in public in it. (Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) I'll take the comment seriously when she buys me a costume. Perhaps the one for $1895.

I like this post.
I like to read all the discussions about stuff here. It gives me different viewpoints than my own.
Sometimes people's opinions annoy or anger me, well, that's not the end of the world either. It makes me think, well, why AM I annoyed or angered by that? What's going on in me.That helps to clarify my own opinion, or to, gasp! change it.
Usually though, hearing opposing viewpoints opens my mind, and I learn more.
I spent too many years thinking I knew more than I did, or that my opinions somehow were more special & valuable than others... because ????

I wish I had loosened up and been more accepting when I was younger, but, eh, better late than never.
Oh, and I think it is perfectly OK to ask the OP's question "What?$1895?" because, if we are curious, we should be able to ask a question.

Originally Posted by SuzanneAzhaar

Personal sensitivity? Had a dancer say to my face she hated my risque costume and would never be seen in public in it. (Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) I'll take the comment seriously when she buys me a costume. Perhaps the one for $1895.

You reminded me: When I was wee, a fellow child told me RIGHT before my group was going onstage that she hated my costume and I shouldn't be wearing it. Yeah, children are awesome. Anyway, I tried to explain to her (and to my damaged feelings) that my teacher chose all of our costumes, so opinions didn't really matter. Granted the costume was a maroon unitard with a loose crop shirt made of gold sequinned fabric and the other kid was completely right, but still.

Back to topic, I think this costume is eye catching and fabulous for that reason alone!

But man, pailettes can be hard to keep in good condition. I'm refurbishing a costume right now that was apparently worn by a dancer who sat down in it (!) because the pailettes on the back are bent.

Originally Posted by ozma

But, I will also say that if a giant bling monster vomited sequins on Samira...I would probably want to find my own vomiting blingasaur. That woman could make a hospital gown look stylish and heaven help us if she ever uses her power for evil.

The costume is not to my taste, but it is not hideous and I am 100% in agreement with Ozma. Samira is a stunning woman and looks gorgeous. I'd still get out the elephant tranquilizer and go a' huntin' just so I could feed that monster some ipecac and stand in front of it. And, can I tell you how much I love the word "blingasaur" ? I may just have to borrow this for the future if appropriate to the conversation.

I do believe there to be an overabundance of sensitivity in modern society, and I also agree that we are all allowed our own opinions and thoughts. However, grace and tact in expressing those opinions can often be lacking. There are ways to strongly express oneself publicly while still exercising decorum. A witty dig for the sake of being witty is best left for your close friends and not a public forum. Many times the intent behind the writing does not translate.

Originally Posted by kina

...
I love the costume, I love the way you look in it Samira and think it's stunning.

Thank you Kina!

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

...
There are times when I also see the value in silence. But in this tread, I don't think anyone was making this about Samira. I thought they were expressing their opinions on a rather unique costume which SS just happens to be modeling.
{{{HUGS}}}

I truly took no offense to anything on this thread. I happen to model at the store...and goodness you should hear some of the things *I* say about some of the costumes. Of course, it's not in a public forum and I don't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings because they haven't even been bought yet. But, "coconut boobs", nipple tassels, crassels, phallic symbols, clown colors... nothing is safe. lol
One thing I'm really aware of however is that there is a price range for everyone and people truly have very different tastes. The more expensive costumes DO have higher quality components, fit AND work. You get what you pay for.
If I say positive things about a costume on a thread- please know that I am being totally honest. I can appreciate the FABulousness of a costume even if it's "not for me."

Originally Posted by ozma

But, I will also say that if a giant bling monster vomited sequins on Samira...I would probably want to find my own vomiting blingasaur. That woman could make a hospital gown look stylish and heaven help us if she ever uses her power for evil.

Ozma, is it too late to ask you to be my Valentine? We can share a vomiting blingosaur that vomits heart shaped paillettes and crystals (the real ones, not the cheapie plastic ones, thank you very much)!
Truth be told, my "power" is that I get to say "no" to the ones that are horribly UNflattering on me. I don't have to do up the zipper in back if it gives me muffin top. Everything gets padded: It's a regular "BYOB" (Bring Your Own Boobs) party!

"One thing I'm really aware of however is that there is a price range for everyone and people truly have very different tastes. The more expensive costumes DO have higher quality components, fit AND work. You get what you pay for.
If I say positive things about a costume on a thread- please know that I am being totally honest. I can appreciate the FABulousness of a costume even if it's "not for me."


Now THAT I totally 100% agree with.

Totally enjoyed reading everyone's comments...
Would totally have worn this costume in my 20's-30's. Now my tastes would be as others stated more in the silver, gold or same color shades paillettes style. Not really sure I could rock the bra, but Samira does look fantastic. This truly is a Diva gown!

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Ozma, is it too late to ask you to be my Valentine? We can share a vomiting blingosaur that vomits heart shaped paillettes and crystals (the real ones, not the cheapie plastic ones, thank you very much)!
Truth be told, my "power" is that I get to say "no" to the ones that are horribly UNflattering on me. I don't have to do up the zipper in back if it gives me muffin top. Everything gets padded: It's a regular "BYOB" (Bring Your Own Boobs) party!

Heck yes, you can be my valentine...and if you use your powers for evil, do let me be in on the action. I still smart from having been wounded prior to the FAB trip to Liberace Land and thus unable to function, much less put on and enjoy bling.

May the Blingasour party commence. Bile and Bling for ALL MY FRIENDS!

Love the costume! Wish I had the $$$ for it! This is still someone's creative work...and even if I didn't like it I hope I could offer something constructive about my critique.

This thread kinda reminds me of some clients reaction to our prices "HOW MUCH?!!"

Wish I could say...I need 3-4 gigs just to pay for the outfit!

Oh, I buy it in an instant, if I have the money, a serious dancejob. And not forget the boobs, (that I don't have)
It's fun, please the world is serious enough.

this thread became my awakening of sorts..as to why i feel as i do on some stuff. last night i was asked if i had an issue of habibi mag. a dancer friend lost the issue with her teacher on the cover. so, i started through the stack. it was wonderful....all the big names who made this dance in the 70's, 80's.how our roots were set by the immigrants etc. the bands, all the ethnic pics...articles by jamilla etc. and then it hit me !..it is middle eastern ! what i am reading and looking at is about middle eastern dance and CULTURE...... the costumes from these companys do not look middle eastern !!!! they are way to western for my taste or dance . they look like latin ballroom to me. so, now i know. thanks! even more glad i learned costume making back when you had to or dance naked! happy i make bedlah for others . just happy.

Originally Posted by zamora

this thread became my awakening of sorts..as to why i feel as i do on some stuff. last night i was asked if i had an issue of habibi mag. a dancer friend lost the issue with her teacher on the cover. so, i started through the stack. it was wonderful....all the big names who made this dance in the 70's, 80's.how our roots were set by the immigrants etc. the bands, all the ethnic pics...articles by jamilla etc. and then it hit me !..it is middle eastern ! what i am reading and looking at is about middle eastern dance and CULTURE...... the costumes from these companys do not look middle eastern !!!! they are way to western for my taste or dance . they look like latin ballroom to me. so, now i know. thanks! even more glad i learned costume making back when you had to or dance naked! happy i make bedlah for others . just happy.

Zamora, would those be the Middle Eastern costumes that look like the American cinema from the 1950's, 40's, 30's, or 20's? What we think of as classic bellydance costumes (and even the word bellydance) have extreme and distinct American roots. They've been absorbed by Middle Eastern cultures, just like Fred Astair's grace and the traveling movements of the Russian Ballet.

There's an awesome book you might want to read called "Visions of the East, Orientalism in Film" that discusses the history of America's fascination with a fictionalized version of Middle Eastern culture and dress, and the films that made these fantasies wide spread. (You can't blame Hollywood - they weren't making historical documentaries. They were catering to a generation of flappers looking for new female archetypes and romantic adventures.) We exported those films, they were seen in the Middle East in the early days of silent movies, and the Middle East responded with their own film industry, western style orchestration and musical compositions, and dance performed for the stage and movies that emulated what they saw in American movies and the Russian ballet.

What I'm saying is - sixty years from now this costume will be viewed as just as authentic and Egyptian as we now view Samia Gamal's costumes today.

I agree with you - that this costume does not meet a more expected Middle Eastern aesthetic. But it's not any less authentic that the aesthetic we expect.

Originally Posted by shushanna

I agree with you - that this costume does not meet a more expected "Middle Eastern" aesthetic. But it's not any less authentic that the aesthetic we expect.

Yes. Exactly this. Well said.

Originally Posted by shushanna

What I'm saying is - sixty years from now this costume will be viewed as just as authentic and Egyptian as we now view Samia Gamal's costumes today.

Not necessarily. Not every trend in fashion goes on to be revered as a classic, and part of what builds the feeling of timelessness is continuity. One of the reasons many of those otherwise-somewhat-dated-looking vintage costumes are still being worn is that they were built to last. People have always expressed legitimate concerns about the longevity of the modern Lycra costumes' materials (deterioration of elasticity in the fabric, finishes that lose their integrity with wear) and workmanship (using adhesives instead of sewing). If I had to predict, I'd bet this costume will be viewed more like Mona's wings-of-gold-fringe costume than a classic. It may be authentic, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a novelty look.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Not necessarily. Not every trend in fashion goes on to be revered as a classic, and part of what builds the feeling of timelessness is continuity. One of the reasons many of those otherwise-somewhat-dated-looking vintage costumes are still being worn is that they were built to last. People have always expressed legitimate concerns about the longevity of the modern Lycra costumes' materials (deterioration of elasticity in the fabric, finishes that lose their integrity with wear) and workmanship (using adhesives instead of sewing). If I had to predict, I'd bet this costume will be viewed more like Mona's wings-of-gold-fringe costume than a classic. It may be authentic, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a novelty look.

Tourbeau, not everything Samia wore was classic and timeless. And the durability of costumes, when a completely new wardrobe was created for every movie, wasn't the highest priority. You're probably thinking of the timeless ones as examples because those are the ones we do wear today. But there were odd trends in every generation.




I'm sure if I spend more than five minutes on Google, I can find you more Samia costumes that, though pretty and appropriate to the 1950's, did not live on to be the revered classics we might wear today.

I'm not saying that the Lycra dress would be a classic. I am saying that you can't claim that its lack of "Middle Eastern" authenticity is a valid reason to knock it, when none of our costumes or Samia's costumes are without significant western influence.

I love that Sahar paillette monster! It's fun and flashy and that would probably carry over into my dancing if I wore it.

I think it's so fun how we all have such different tastes. There have been new costumes at the bellydancestore that I thought were atrocious and some of you loved. This is a good thing though. :)

I am going to throw out one phrase here about this convo: consider the source. Not knocking Zamora. But as someone who has been dancing for 30+ years for many ethnic audiences, she probably has a very different take on costuming not only from her personal choices but from the feed back which she has received from those very audiences.

As I remind myself from time to time, somethings simply need to be accepted and understood within the context of the time and space. And leave it at that.

{{{HUGS}}}

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but perhaps zamora's comments in #101 were not supposed to turn into a debate about authenticity and the Hollywood origins of costumes, but rather to point out that the older-style costumes play more heavily into the GP's expectation of what a belly dancer's costume is than the modern ones do. Lots of people on Bhuz have commented that even when they love the modern costumes for their streamlined stylishness and comfort, they still keep a couple of workhorse sets and circle skirts because sometimes that's what the audience wants. I don't think it's really about what Samia did or didn't wear, in character or otherwise, because the same things would be true about Turkish V sets. There is a segment of the audience that doesn't care what the latest couture from Cairo or Istanbul looks like, because they want to see the style of costume that has been promoted in the wider media for the last 40+ years: a fringemonster or a coin set with a full skirt.

Wait a second - "orientalism" isn't responsible for all or even most of the looks we think of as Middle Eastern - and associate with the dance:

The use of coins, crescent moon and other elaborate necklaces, richly ornamented bracelets and rings; tattoos; and assuit in costuming, heavy silver jewelry including headdresses; tight vest, full skirts, boleros, exotic sleeves, fringes, long hanging tassles or other devices over skirts or trousers and elaborately decorated textiles are all part of the traditions of the region. The heavy use of sequins and beads is also part of the Eastern textile arts, ditto metal thread.

So are combinations of stripes, paisleys, and various fabrics including velvets - many of us, as a first costume, had 19th century Ottoman-style "ghawazee" outfits that we made ourselves.

There is nothing especially "Western" about a full circle or tiered skirt either, or beadwork, nor a tight bodice showing a beautiful decolletage, a hip scarf or belt and a long straight dress with a tight hip belt. That's pretty traditional garb isn't it? depending on the region.

Plus don't forget that the whole Mati Hari look did have an Eastern influence, adaptations of cholis, draped skirts worn low, etc. so the nude torso isn't really a Hollywood or European invention either, it's an interpretation of Eastern costuming, not necessarily Middle Eastern but definitely of the East.

Indeed there are old photos (early 20th century probably) showing North African women completely topless, draped in assuit - people saw and wrote about la danse du ventre, the dancers of the Ouled Nail etc and they weren't inventing what they saw. Friends of mine who grew up in Egypt in the 1950's told me dancers used to appear topless.

So I think, with respect, that term "orientalism" is thrown around a lot without a real understanding of what it means or how it's been used politically and as a pejorative rather than as term defining a kind of art and scholarship.

Indeed, "orientalist" paintings are now highly regarded, from what I've read in arts journals, by collectors from the Middle East because they are the only record of what people did see before the era of the camera - Islamic arts not focusing on "realistic" painting.

Meanwhile, Zamora's point about being able to make one's own costumes is an important one, they have a timeless look and they show movement incredibly well even in a big house; plus, there are issues of durability - I've had some of my costumes for over 35 years. So there is an economic consideration as well; many professional dancers also made/make costumes for others and teaching people how to do this is part of what we pass along.

And, many of the lycra costumes give muffin tops to even skinny dancers, they don't swish - there's nothing "Eastern" about a ton of paillettes whether you like the outfit or not

- and that goes double for short tight skirts, rock-inspired music and pole-dancer moves.

we are all correct from where we are coming from..i love you all.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

...the feed back which she has received from those very (ethnic) audiences.
....
{{{HUGS}}}

I'm only going to respond to this part.
In my experience- American GP audiences love the bedleh, full skirt look.
The costumes I own most complimented by Middle Eastern audiences are hands down the more modern ones. They like bedleh, but they LOVE the fashion looking ones (might be important to note I LOVE fabric movement and tend to buy modern ones with a bit of swish to them and usually with ornamentation that moves).

..ah, reach out and slap me, but are there some who feel a costume not from a big name company is worth less ?...those who do this full time get our costumes appraised and insured...trust me, what i sew is on par and in some cases worth more.
i also understand not all have seen a habibi...or seen the type of reading we got then.it was not about us, or who did what where. it was about a culture , teaching every aspect so we did our best to respect our roots..there are amazing pictures , not of us, but those we are carrying on for...to me ( zamora spain being the last strong hold of the moors ), it is still not about us.....it is about the music..without it we are not.

I still love this costume even though it would not work for me personally.

Samira, I love that you've been so giving to people here on Bhuz, regarding your personal experiences with all the costumes you are fortunate enough to model. Your honest opinion on the pros and cons of each one is greatly appreciated by those of us who have to buy it before we see it. Honesly girl, you could make a potato sack look good. It's very kind of you to share your experiences good and bad with them. We get far less from other vendors and you're a credit to the bellydancestore and to bhuz. Mwah! Love you!

Originally Posted by zamora

..ah, reach out and slap me, but are there some who feel a costume not from a big name company is worth less ?...those who do this full time get our costumes appraised and insured...trust me, what i sew is on par and in some cases worth more.

There are people who feel that way. There are people who use "handmade" as a pejorative. I disagree with this because there are folks you you, like me, like many bhuzzers, who do produce handcrafted costumes that are on par or better than some designer items....which ultimately are all handmade.

People are brought to the dance and stay for many reasons and not all of them have to do with the culture, the music, and the lands of dance...right or wrong, the fashion, the make-up, the veneer of glam and style are a big draw. I'm not saying dancers into the fashion trends are a dancers apart from the music and culture...but a few of them are and will never see the value in the work you do making costumes and performing. Their loss.

Originally Posted by ozma

May the Blingasour party commence. Bile and Bling for ALL MY FRIENDS!

I'm voting for Ozma. I'm not sure which election, but I'm voting

Has anyone else noticed the prevalence of paillettes in recent runway (and then red carpet) looks?

By designer Zuhair Murad (who is Lebanese):


By Armani:

oh, oh, and look at the shoulders on that last one!!! I can rotate my 80's stuff back to the front of my closet!!!

Originally Posted by zamora

..ah, reach out and slap me, but are there some who feel a costume not from a big name company is worth less ?...those who do this full time get our costumes appraised and insured...trust me, what i sew is on par and in some cases worth more.

Well, that would be silly.
Of the costumes you can buy- *generally* (but not always) you get what you pay for.
Of the costumes you make- generally you get what you put in (components, time (and more time!), research, love etc).

Originally Posted by zamora

... it is still not about us.....it is about the music..without it we are not.

Agreed wholeheartedly! It's about the music and the cultures that bring us the dance. It's about the audience.
Our audiences do not live in a freeze frame however- and some audiences sometimes want something similar to what they might see "back home" now (usually lycra)...and sometimes they want to see something like what they saw in the movies growing up.

Originally Posted by shahla

...Samira, I love that you've been so giving to people here on Bhuz, regarding your personal experiences with all the costumes you are fortunate enough to model. Your honest opinion on the pros and cons of each one is greatly appreciated by those of us who have to buy it before we see it. Honesly girl, you could make a potato sack look good. It's very kind of you to share your experiences good and bad with them. We get far less from other vendors and you're a credit to the bellydancestore and to bhuz. Mwah! Love you!

Thank you SO much Shahla. I try to help make it a "win win situation" for everyone.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Our audiences do not live in a freeze frame however- and some audiences sometimes want something similar to what they might see "back home" now (usually lycra)...and sometimes they want to see something like what they saw in the movies growing up.

This is such a good point, and a good reminder. I like the way you put it. :)