Thread: Cheap costumes...undercutting is undercutting.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I think this web site is a prime example of the kind of undercutting the original post was referring to: Belly Dance Digs - Belly Dancing Clothing | Belly Dance Costumes

Not only does it sell knock-offs of Melodia pants for a quarter of what Melodia sells (because Melodia's are made in the U.S.), but it actually uses Melodia's name to describe them, thereby intercepting some Google search results for itself.

There is an etsy seller that is using the Melodia name as well Melodia style dance pants Custom to your size & by RedLunarMoon. How is it any different? They are only selling theirs for $50 & custom to boot. The site you posted states they are 'Melodia like' they don't say they are Melodia products.

Originally Posted by GypsyStacey

There is an etsy seller that is using the Melodia name as well. How is it any different? They are only selling theirs for $50 & custom to boot.

I don't see a difference.

I think the point of the original post is that we dancers complain a lot about undercutting when other dancers in our communities offer cheap performances or cheap classes, but the same people who complain about that don't hesitate to buy from cheap costume undercutters. Ie, I think the original post was attempting to raise awareness and point out what some might call hypocrisy.

I didn't really interpret the original post to be specifically about China, it just mentioned China because that's where a lot of the cheaply-priced items come from, due to their low-low costs of manufacturing. But the cheap-costume phenomenon is not limited to costumes from China. I think the link you provided is the same issue.

Shira ~ ohhh okay I got you , and agree with what you are saying!

I have nothing against China. I used it as an example.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

[snip]
I didn't really interpret the original post to be specifically about China, it just mentioned China because that's where a lot of the cheaply-priced items come from, due to their low-low costs of manufacturing. But the cheap-costume phenomenon is not limited to costumes from China. I think the link you provided is the same issue.

I for one read the OP as specifically China ... and I quote
[quote] Am I the only one who goes off her rocker when I see dancers wearing bedlahs and costumes made in China? I don't care if they are cheap!

1. They are probably made by a 7 year old in poor working conditions. If labor is cheap in the Middle East, you are undercutting the pay even more by buying these. The Egyptian and Turkish women who sit home and sew till their fingers bleed to make you beautiful pieces now have to compete at even lower prices.[snip][unquote]

A group of ladies at the same studio I am at bought bra, skirts & belts from China, all made to measure, which cost about $10 more for the made to measure, they were all very wellmade, and they looked lovely, the costume cost each lady AUD$65 and that included postage from China to Australia in the price. They aren't professional dancers, they love to dance and do so at yearly performances and local festivals. None of them can afford even the middle of the road Egyptian costumes. I buy Egyptian because I like to wear dresses, but I pay a fortune for shipping all the way from Egypt, so I have to limit what I buy & it is way to costly to travel to Egypt except maybe once every 4 to 6 years or for some dancers it is one trip in a lifetime. China is in our backyard, and like some have said the Chinese also have to eat.

Also assuming that China has sweatshop child labour conditions is incorrect, all children have to attend school, The Chinese even the poorest ones cherish their "one" child and will work their fingers to the bone to see their child has a good education, and will do their utmost to try to get them into higher education as well. Of course there are the rural farming communities whose children not only go to school but help the parents farm their small plots of land and help them sell their crops at market, but all hands are needed to meet the needs of family & community

Also as a point of interest the silk fan veils & veils you see in Egypt are actually made in China and sold in some of the salons in Cairo. In that particular case the Egyptian sellers are the middlemen and one gentleman tried to tell me they were made in Egypt, but I had the exact same pair at home and recognised them immediately. Granted the costumes are made in Egypt, but the quality fabrics generally come from China.

This reminds me of something that happened within my troupe a few years ago. I agree that new performers should not buy expensive costumes, so I settled on Neckelmanns. One of my students found a $50 set (yes, it was from China, this dancer was Chinese and "brokered" deals for everyone else) and most of the troupe ended up buying them.

The problems here were:
1. We lost any hope of a cohesive look.
2. The ones who did buy the $200 set were mad.
3. The $50 sets, while they didn't fall apart, they just didn't hold up and we only acceptable for one performance.

Obviously, there was a lot of fault to be given to me since I didn't enforce my rule. Yes, I learned my lesson.

One thing that was wrong with both the $50 and the $200 sets, however, was the lack of alterability. There is no extra room on the belts. And of course, the bras are lingerie bras and look it.


But my basic thought on this topic is that you get what you pay for. If you want to have an awesome costume, you will buy a high end costume, even if you have to get one that is a little beat up in order to afford it. Or you will settle for nice LRose until you can afford a bedleh. Or... You learn to sew, fast!

Originally Posted by SandraDances

This reminds me of something that happened within my troupe a few years ago. I agree that new performers should not buy expensive costumes, so I settled on Neckelmanns. One of my students found a $50 set (yes, it was from China, this dancer was Chinese and "brokered" deals for everyone else) and most of the troupe ended up buying them.

The problems here were:
1. We lost any hope of a cohesive look.
2. The ones who did buy the $200 set were mad.
3. The $50 sets, while they didn't fall apart, they just didn't hold up and we only acceptable for one performance.

Obviously, there was a lot of fault to be given to me since I didn't enforce my rule. Yes, I learned my lesson.

One thing that was wrong with both the $50 and the $200 sets, however, was the lack of alterability. There is no extra room on the belts. And of course, the bras are lingerie bras and look it.

But my basic thought on this topic is that you get what you pay for. If you want to have an awesome costume, you will buy a high end costume, even if you have to get one that is a little beat up in order to afford it. Or you will settle for nice LRose until you can afford a bedleh. Or... You learn to sew, fast!

Kudos to you for your honesty. That is a great example of attempting to operate on a shoe-string costume budget, and the pitfalls that can arise. I advise anyone ordering a costume utilizing a lingerie bra base to order at least one cup size larger, so there's room to add buckram, firm bra cups or some type stiffening to give the bra structure. I also suggest ordering the belt at least 4" longer than necessary. Easier to adjust the fit, have extra beads for accessories and to adjust the fit as necessary.

But I agree, LRose is an affordable alternative. Classy look and well-made items that can be repurposed. Washable is a plus.

But my basic thought on this topic is that you get what you pay for. If you want to have an awesome costume, you will buy a high end costume, even if you have to get one that is a little beat up in order to afford it. Or you will settle for nice LRose until you can afford a bedleh. Or... You learn to sew, fast!

I think the L.Rose sets are actually a good value for most people... If you're dancing professionally, you should own a pro-quality costume but many of us can make do with the L.Rose pieces and are not a bad alternative in the least bit.

I am surprised you call that undercutting. I have never owned nor plan to own a chinese costume. I care too much about my professional image to do that although in bad financial moments I have considered trying one. I never did. However I do not consider them undercutters. I know what they are selling and why they are cheaper. Nothing that cheap can be expected to last either. It is similar to branding. And like someone said, a Ford and a Lamborghini although both cars, can hardly be consider to compete with each other. A Pharaonics or a Bella or most of our costumes look like a Lamborghini next to a chinese costume. But if you do not choose that costume, well maybe you just don't need a Lamborghini or cannot afford it. And you cannot be a true professional. It is a like a professional photographer with a disposable camera. But are disposable cameras undercutting? No. They serve an entirely different purpose.

*eyeroll* You know, there are many many many true professional dancers past and present who have never owned a Bella or a Pharonics, my former teacher, who made most of her costumes, for one. Let's not confuse having enough money to buy designer with professionalism.

Somewhat on-subject is pricing a used costume on the swap meet. There is a lot of competetion (yep, I said it even though we're all supportive of one another when we have a costume to sell we love to well, sell it!) and when there isn't a lot of interest in our item(s) I for one feel like the only way to get it into someone else's hands and out of my closet is to drop the price.

Whew....was probably a run on sentence but do you get my point?

How low do we go? How low SHOULD we go? In the end, I don't want to feel like an undercutter.

Originally Posted by Doozer

Somewhat on-subject is pricing a used costume on the swap meet. [...] How low do we go? How low SHOULD we go?

How is the price of a costume set anyway? As an item, a costume is somewhere between "practical goods" and "art." Reasonable pricing (excluding tax and tariffs, which are set outside the dance community's control) includes R&D (design research and prototyping), materials, labor, operations overhead, and some intangible amounts for creativity and reputation. Perhaps a costume's price also includes some inflation to keep the "coveting" factor high. Remember the frenzy over the Venus Collection last spring (the decorated flesh-toned body suit with a skirt)? That's an interesting study in economics. When they debuted, they cost $595 at the Bellydance Store, and they were flying off the site almost as fast as the pictures were getting uploaded. By the end of the year, they were on the sale page for $295. Dahlal's prices went from $649.95 (8/11 ITH) to $394.95 (1/12 ITH). In either case, that's a big drop in price in less than a year, and these were new costumes. What are those costumes selling for secondhand now? Presumably if you bought one, wore it gently, and sold it in May when the price was high, you could have asked at least $400 for it. Could you reasonably ask that now that the price is below $400 and you're competing against someone who paid considerably less for new?

Unlike the car analogy, we don't have a formal system to evaluate depreciation. Someone considering the purchase of a used costume doesn't usually take it to an expert for an inspection and an estimate of what repairs it needs. We don't have a book that defines "good," "fair," or "poor" conditions with adjusted pricing. The economic model is pretty much "it's worth what someone will pay for it." If you start from the assumption that the first owner paid justly to cover what it cost to make the costume (the creator has been sufficiently reimbursed for their R&D, materials, labor, and overhead, and been compensated for prestige of artistry), what is the second owner paying for? The beads were bought, the electric bill was paid, and the workers have spent their paychecks. The designer's genius isn't directly rewarded by what goes on between the secondhand parties--that price bump goes into the reseller's pocket, although the reseller might claim they're fulfilling an obligation to keep the price high to protect the designer's reputation. Mostly the cost is "what the owner says it's worth, roughly based on what they paid, minus their estimate of wear-and-tear damage." If the first owner overpaid originally or underestimated the amount of deterioration, the market isn't obligated to sympathize.

LOL!!! buying an expensive costume does NOT make one a professional dancer, nor is it required you have to own something expensive to BE a pro dancer.

Originally Posted by Doozer

and when there isn't a lot of interest in our item(s) I for one feel like the only way to get it into someone else's hands and out of my closet is to drop the price.
.

Maybe I should start checking the Swap Meet again. I had pretty much given up hope fn finding a reasonably priced second-hand all gold bedlah, given that I don't put too much stock into the whole "but illustrious dancer XYZ sweated in this one!" I'm sorry, but sweat is sweat and what I want to know is if there is damage and if yes I want pics of it so I can figure out if I can repair it. And I refuse to pay extra for the "privilege" of someone's famous boobs wearing it before me. Totally cool if others are into the vintage prestige thing, maybe one day I'll be able to afford it too. But for now? A costume is a costume is a costume.

Re undercutting: I wish more designer would do what Kathleen Crowley did with her pants design and sold their patterns. That way, there is an affordable way to honor the person who actually came with the design and there is much lss incentive for knock off manufacturers to come in and offer a discounted version, when they know full well that anyone can make their own. I do understand this is not possible for most of the designers of Egyptian costumes, just thinking out loud.

Originally Posted by Doozer

How low do we go? How low SHOULD we go? In the end, I don't want to feel like an undercutter.

I think a healthy concern about undercutting can get out of hand... as it has in this case.

You want to sell your costume. There are only a limited number of people who will fit in it, who are looking for a costume at that moment, who like the colour and design of the costume you have, who are willing to buy online, etc. etc. Once you find people who fulfill all those requirements, it may be that they (one, two individuals?) may not be willing to pay your higher price. If you really want to sell it, you're smart to lower your price to a level you find comfortable. You're not undercutting anybody. The fact that they bought your green B-cup costume at $175, it doesn't mean they would have bought someone else's red C-cup costume at $400 if you hadn't.

For this reason, and as many on here have already noted, I'm not sure "undercutting" is the right word for cheapo eBay costume items either. The origins of non-Chinese items are also unclear (something might be manufactured in Egypt with Chinese fabric, yay for globalization! Or something could be sweatshop-made in another country.). Moreover, the audiences for a custom-made Egyptian costume and a dinky hip scarf are just very different.

In the past year, I've ordered three fun hip scarves from a Hong Kong eBay merchant to wear in class -- my bd instructor had, horrors, told us that's where she got her practice hip scarves. I've also bought a few silk veils to practice with on sale from a brick-and-mortar store in my city specializing in ME stuff. While I'm happy to support the store, I don't really think that purchase was morally superior or made me a better person. I don't really know where they ultimately came from anyway. But the store allowed me to have them right away, which was a service Hong Kong couldn't provide!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I think this web site is a prime example of the kind of undercutting the original post was referring to: Belly Dance Digs - Belly Dancing Clothing | Belly Dance Costumes

Not only does it sell knock-offs of Melodia pants for a quarter of what Melodia sells (because Melodia's are made in the U.S.), but it actually uses Melodia's name to describe them, thereby intercepting some Google search results for itself.

OMG! It's one think to knock off a popular brand name, but to then to blatantly USE the brand name in your advertising to profit from it? That's just horrendous! And I can tell you as someone who makes a living on eBay - I would get kicked off of there if I tried to pull something like this. There's even a name for this infraction (Keyword Spamming) and it gets your listings removed without warning. Someone pointed out that there's a person doing this on Etsy - I'm surprised they don't have a similar rule (or perhaps they do but that seller hasn't been turned in?) I don't know how some people sleep at night.

My reply is based purely on my own situation.

As a costume designer here in South Africa my problem with Chinese costumes is that dancers (of all levels) judge costume pricing on what they can get from the flea market. ie This is a Bellydance costume it costs X therefore all costumes should cost X.

These costumes are available here at less that the cost of materials needed to make a hand made costume.

In a country with a 24% unemployment rate - imports just make it all the more difficult to earn a living at this skill. And while there will (hopefully) always be dancers who want a unique, made to measure costume the majority of dancers want quantity not quality.

my 2c.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I think this web site is a prime example of the kind of undercutting the original post was referring to: Belly Dance Digs - Belly Dancing Clothing | Belly Dance Costumes

Not only does it sell knock-offs of Melodia pants for a quarter of what Melodia sells (because Melodia's are made in the U.S.), but it actually uses Melodia's name to describe them, thereby intercepting some Google search results for itself.

Had to purchase products from them due to cost constraints of the class and I REGRET doing so. Not only is she selling knock-offs, the owner also gives the WORST customer service, a RUDE attitude to customers, and does not deliver as promised.