Thread: Cheap costumes...undercutting is undercutting.

Warning at home sick rant: Am I the only one who goes off her rocker when I see dancers wearing bedlahs and costumes made in China? I don't care if they are cheap!

1. They are probably made by a 7 year old in poor working conditions. If labor is cheap in the Middle East, you are undercutting the pay even more by buying these. The Egyptian and Turkish women who sit home and sew till their fingers bleed to make you beautiful pieces now have to compete at even lower prices.

2. Do Scottish Highland dancers buy their costumes in Mexico? I'd hope not.

3. Support your fellow artists who are working hard to support you. Not some manufacturing company who makes thousands of items.

4. Put yourself in their shoes. You work hard for your dance, then someone comes in and offers belly dance classes/dancers at 1/2 the price because they can buy cheaper labor and less quality instructors/dancers. Undercutting is undercutting. ITS THE SAME EXACT THING.

I ALWAYS buy from local/regional vendors now. I think i have maybe ONE pair of dance pants that are from Canada, but that's because she made the pants exactly how i wanted them and was able to make them in the color i wanted.

E-Bay, Etsy, and other websites have OPTIONS of limiting the listings to countries (for the most part, Etsy you have to put USA or Canada, you cant have it as North America), and it can be relatively easy to check where the company is based out of.

I am always wary of photos on any listing that are far too small even enlarged, because that means (at least to me) that the product was bought wholesale, thumbnails and images were most likely stolen from the place that the product was purchased and being re-sold for a profit.

While i realize that a LOT of different companies do that... when you have a product image that when ENLARGED is only the size of the forum avatars... it starts smelling a bit fishy.

While it may be more expensive for a piece, at least i'm paying the person i'm buying the pieces from for their hard work and time in creating the clothing for me.

Amen! and hope you feel better soon

I agree with you to the extent that I deplore the exploitation of workers, wherever and whoever we might be.

On the other hand, not everybody can afford a high end costume or even to pay for a class.

Should they be deprived because they're poor?

This "undercutting" topic is a pretty loaded issue actually, with a lot of angles to it.

As far as supporting local talent, it would be nice if people did that. I heartily agree.

This brings to mind this statement from Turquoise International: http://www.turquoiseintl.com/egyptvchina.pdf

There are always going to be those who buy airport specials and the very cheap knockoffs from the far east, in part because dancer simply doesn't know what a quality costume is or where to get one.

The ironic thing is that if you are on a limited budget you can usually find a used high end costume right here on Bhuz for reasonable price. The investment in a quality gold or silver bedlah (even used) and a few different colors and styles of skirts and accessories can fill out a costume wardrobe for many dancers withouit a big investment.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

I agree with you to the extent that I deplore the exploitation of workers, wherever and whoever we might be.

On the other hand, not everybody can afford a high end costume or even to pay for a class.

Should they be deprived because they're poor?

This "undercutting" topic is a pretty loaded issue actually, with a lot of angles to it.

As far as supporting local talent, it would be nice if people did that. I heartily agree.

Not everyone needs a high-end costume, though. And I say that as a person just purchased her first costume after dancing for a fair number of years, because I didn't have the money.

There are ways to costume for those on a budget. There's the Bhuz swap meet, there are in-person swap meets, sewing, and buying simpler costumes. Some teachers are very generous and provide some costumes for their students.

When those Chinese, lingerie grade bras pop open mid show, because they are unsuitable for dance performances, the lesson will be learned

I truly believe that a high quality costume is a must if you want to be a professional dancer. If you want to charge top dollar then I feel you have an obligation to deliver a top notch show and that includes a professional grade costume. I'd rather purchase a high quality used costume than a cheap brand new costume any day.

You get what you pay for. They are not very nice, those Chinese costumes, though slender, short people can often get away with them. But they fall apart quickly. And to be fair, there are equally craptastic Egyptian cheapies on Ebay etc.

I don't think it's entirely fair to diss Chinese-made stuff purely because it's made in China. Chinese people need to eat too. But if you're prepared to boycott Chinese-manufactured things in all other parts of your daily life then by all means boycott Chinese costumes on the basis of their place of origin, not their quality.

How can one know (sight unseen) that it's a Chinese costume? I usually order from Dahlal or BellydanceStore, and I assume the Egyptian costumes are actually from Egypt. Right?

Now, I've seen some cheap things from Egypt - both there - and on eBay.

But, I agree that I'd rather keep the costume design money where the dance comes from...

I can't speak for other vendors, but my costumes are made in Egypt. I know some of the seamstresses personally, and while not equivalent to U.S. standards they are making a good wage. At least two of the people I buy from supply their workers with materials and allow them to work from home. It's hard for an Egyptian woman to earn a living, as most don't work outside the home. I have never had a waitress at a restaurant, I've only seen one female cleaning rooms in a hotel, and most shops have male staff. Crochet and bead work can really be done anywhere since there's not a specialized machine involved. These women are able to make some money and stay in the home at the same time - both are important.

Most of the khaleegy dresses are made in India (even if they are purchased in Cairo). Other than that, I would venture to say that most of the dance costuming purchased in Cairo is made by an Egyptian. The fabrics are likely produced in other countries, but the actual construction of the costumes is not. Of course you can buy a shoddy costume made in Egypt, but you just have to pay attention like you would when you purchase anything, really. You can buy a car that rides rough or you can buy one that practically drives itself. You can get a cell phone that just makes phone calls or one that is essentially a mini computer.

I prefer to support the culture that originated the dance I love, and that's a big reason I don't carry Chinese made merchandise. It might be inexpensive, but typically the fit isn't correct and the materials are sub-par. Sequin wraps and piano shawls? Sure. Coined hip scarves and performance costumes? No, thanks.

If all the awful costumes are made in China then how did my husbands aunt bring this monstrosity back from Cairo??



The focus should be on working conditions and equality itself.

We need only point the finger at ourselves.

At least terrible cheapo ME ones have an excuse as tourist tat. A dance student might look clueless trying to dance in one and be risking wardrobe disaster, but there's nothing wrong with them as daft tourist souvenirs. Yes they will also try to sell them to unwary dancers, but hey, wouldn't you?

But apart from the occasional person looking for a cheap fancy dress outfit, those Chinese costumes are squarely aimed at dancers wanting a costume to perform in. They are totally trying to undercut serious belly dance costumiers, in a way that sellers of silly dinnerplate bra outfits or those butterfly top sets aren't.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

You get what you pay for. They are not very nice, those Chinese costumes, though slender, short people can often get away with them. But they fall apart quickly. And to be fair, there are equally craptastic Egyptian cheapies on Ebay etc.

I don't think it's entirely fair to diss Chinese-made stuff purely because it is made in China. Chinese people need to eat too. But if you're prepared to boycott Chinese-manufactured things in all other parts of your daily life then by all means boycott Chinese costumes on the basis of their place of origin, not their quality.

The quality of Chinese goods varies as much as it does anywhere else. Currently much of the high street bling we can buy here in the Uk is from China and some of it it tat and some of it is quality and some of it is remarkably nice tat. I have seen dancers in the horrendous butterfly tops givng no support to their fulsome figures and revealing nearly all of their M&S but the beadwork is dainty and well done (no doubt by little fingers). I have also seen a troupe in a bra and skirt set which was beautifully made and tasteful and very acceptable imported from China. It's called competition and free trade,both of which the Western world has subscribed to. Of course my best costumes are a Madam Abla (second hand) and Pharoanix (bought in situ) and a hand made design made in the UK. They were exactly what I want.
We do (rightly) concern ourselves with the child worker who should be at school but we have learnt lessons before in the developing world where we ban child labour only to find a family n total poverty because s/he was the only breadwinner. China will change as the country develops just as we did here in the UK in the Industrial Revolution with informed campaigns and changes in national laws. Many Chinese manufacturers are ethnical and modern and whatever so do not dismiss an entire nation's industry nor its' goods. Amongst the tat , you will find the exquisite. No one is sorrier than me that we allowed our manufacturing base here in the UK to be destroyed but we should not be held bent on condemning the development of another nations.
I think you will find that Egyptian and other ME and North African nations are importing Chinese goods along with the rest of the world.I saw the same Chinese imports in the souks of Marrakech as I do in our markets.
It isn't a straightforward issue and the best way forward is to buy what suits best its' purpose and is the best quality for the task in hand. You trust an Egyptian costumier to provide you with a costume that does its' job, the Chinese butterfly top does NOT! But the cheap circle skirts and tie tops from Inda or China might well

I know. We have a free trade agreement with China.

1. The work conditions are probably awful by our standards, but perhaps not so bad by theirs, Maybe making belly dance costumes is a prestige job compared to working in a factory that makes flipflops for Walmart. China isn't the only country that has sweatshops, nor are BD costumes the only lowball goods on the market. Buying $8 yoga pants made in a sweatshop in Pakistan isn't ethically much different from buying the $8 hipscarf from China. Anyway, cheap is cheap. If you're buying a bargain costume off eBay, you're not getting the quality of design, fit, workmanship, and materials of a top-of-the-line couture costume from Cairo or Istanbul. You're getting what you paid for. The Ford Fiesta is only competing with a Lamborghini Gallardo insofar as they're both cars.

OTOH, when I started dancing, a three-row coin scarf cost upward of $30. That price wasn't based on the development of innovative crochet technology, the expense of aluminum coin pressing, the rarity of polyester fabric, and the cost of paying workers a decent wage. It was inflated because only a few people imported coin scarves. That market needed a correction. I once got into an argument with another dancer who accused me of committing a grievous sin because I was buying music from an Arab vendor who charged half of what a prominent dance vendor was asking for the same (legit) CDs. Why? The Arab guy deserved to make money off his business, too, and he didn't double the price. They used to say that if you went to Cairo and bought a couple of costumes, you could save enough to buy the plane ticket, just from bypassing the markup. It's one thing when the difference in price is because it costs more to treat your workers humanely, but what's so noble about being overcharged by another dancer when that's not the case? I don't want to pay $16 for that $8 Chinese hip scarf (especially if it's getting passed off as a more expensive ME import) simply because a dancer played middleman. I don't object to vendors making a profit, but I'm not sorry the Internet exposed how big that markup used to be.

2. China does good business in ghillie shoes and curly wigs for Celtic dance, though.

3. If you want to refuse to support businesses who don't pay their employees a living wage or some other reason, fine. Otherwise, the moral argument is meaningless because we don't know what these workers are doing with their money. Maybe Fatimah knowingly contributes to a "charity" that funds terrorism. Maybe that sweatshop job is all that stands between Jiao and prostitution to feed her family. Which worker is more deserving? How can you know from the other side of the world?

4. China is merely exploiting the insatiable hunger for costuming. Unless you are a professional, you don't need a closet of costumes or a new outfit every time you perform. Owning a costume doesn't make you a pro. The fact that so many dancers buy into this thinking is not China's fault.

I think it is a more general problem - with every day we access to more and more things, but at the same time we lose track over where those things come from. Unless you live in a cave, it is impossible to consume 100% ethically, but you can make your best effort. For example, I prefer to buy locally-made clothes and food, but it isn't always possible, and it certainly isn't always easy.

I don't want to depress you here, but even if we get our costumes locally/Egyptian/Turkish-made, we still have no right to feel holy. Because we don't know in which conditions the sequins were produced or the fabric is woven. It is impossible to be informed of all the aspects, unfortunately.

Boy, now that turned out a sad post, didn't it?

Very interesting info here. Once again, Bhuz-zers have presented thought-provoking concepts.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

1. The work conditions are probably awful by our standards, but perhaps not so bad by theirs.

This article provides some insight into working conditions in China for manufacturing Apple iPads: iPad factory suicides in China | Mail Online

Originally Posted by *Shira*

This article provides some insight into working conditions in China for manufacturing Apple iPads: iPad factory suicides in China | Mail Online

...On the bright side, the Chinese BD costume industry doesn't seem to be burdened by the same relentless obsession with quality control that Apple is?

Just from looking at Alibaba, these Chinese costumes could be coming out of companies of all sizes, as small as under 10 employees (Shanghai Yisheng Garment Accessory Co., Ltd. - Stage Wear, belly dancing wear, scarf / shawl), or up to 200 employees (Chaoan County Shaxi Town Sanfang Clothing Craft Factory - Belly dance costume, belly dance wear, belly dance hip scarf), not that this proves anything about whether they treat their workers decently.

Cultural relativism is required to understand the Chinese job market. Yes, here, child labor is illegal. There, it is necessary for survival. Factory jobs that would be considered inhumane here are the best option for a family's survival there. I won't boycott a country's products because I would prefer a child starve to death than work in a sweatshop.

The US went through the same stage during the industrial revolution. Many dangerous factory machines were manufactured around the fact that they'd be operated by child-sized hands. It is a stage that industrializing nations must experience in order to move past it, just as we did. We didn't need other countries who considered themselves more civilized telling is what we should or shouldn't do--and neither does China.





But of course I agree that a pro dancer should wear a pro costume. Cheap costumes, from wherever they come, can't and won't measure up.

Industrial working conditions or not, children sometimes have to pitch in to support their families in the Middle East, too. When a costumer in Egypt or Turkey "outsources" piecework to their seamstresses' homes, we don't know who's doing the actual sewing. Maybe it's the mom. Maybe the mom realizes she can get more income if she drafts her ten-year-old daughter to string fringe, too. When you see that costume on a vendor's table, all you see is the finished product, not the hands who made it.

I'll buy a costume if it looks good and unique, is flattering to my body, the materials are high quality, and if I can afford the price. Generally speaking, anything that is too cheap is usually not high enough quality, but I also don't buy costumes that are very expensive because I can't afford the luxury.

To be perfectly blunt, I really could care less what country the costume comes from. If it's a good costume, I don't care if it was made in the US, in Egypt, in Brazil, or in Russia. I am not going to buy costumes only from Egypt just because my dance comes from Egypt. I'll buy costumes from Egypt if they are superior in quality and are styled to my liking in comparison to costumes from other countries, but not just for the sake of it being Egyptian. And to be honest with you, the current styles aren't really to my liking. They look beautiful on other people, but aren't flattering on my body type, so I generally don't buy them. Why should I?

I don't appreciate being told that I should be buying costumes that are made in Egypt solely for that reason. I think that's a very ethnocentric view. I'll support a talented designer no matter where they are from, if their product interests me.

Poor working conditions are a whole other issue, and ideally every product that I buy would have been produced under fair working conditions, but we all know that's not the case. Many of our clothes and electronics are manufactured by slave-like workers. I can do my best to avoid products that I know are manufactured that way, but can't necessarily avoid them completely. Thankfully, the belly dance costumes I buy are either second-hand or are custom made and custom-designed to me, so that they aren't mass-produced and are usually handcrafted by the designer herself and/or her tailor/s, which is probably more like a small and hopefully fair business as opposed to a huge factory employing workers under horrible working conditions and low pay.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I know. We have a free trade agreement with China.

I'm agreeing with you, Zumarrad.

I do also agree with those who say an Egyptian/Turkish costumier is far more likely to provide you with a costume that is fit for purpose. S/he understands the dance and the materials that will work.
That's why to still makes sense for a dancer who is on a "professional" platform will choose to shop with Eman or Amra et al.

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

When those Chinese, lingerie grade bras pop open mid show, because they are unsuitable for dance performances, the lesson will be learned

I've not quite seen this, but an unfortunate (non-professional) friend did have one pop open in the dressing room pre-hafla a while ago, she managed to conceal it under a tie-front shrug for the duration of the performance... It made me glad that I hadn't bought one of those costumes when several of my troupemates had - all of whom have since bought good quality costumes! We were naive baby dancers at the time...

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

When those Chinese, lingerie grade bras pop open mid show, because they are unsuitable for dance performances, the lesson will be learned

I've known a close dancer friend pop her perfectly beautiful Turkish bra. No I am not defending badly made costumes from anywhere and you do tend to get what you pay for. But bad workmanshop is not confined to anyone nation.

Also, I think you should keep in mind who these costumes are directed at. Most are made for the hobbyist dancer or the person who wants to play harem girl dress up. (Or the club girls who want to shock by wearing a sparkly bra. As if that has never been done before.)

Personally, I have become more tolerant about these costume pieces within the right venue and on the right dancers. Like Yame, if the costume fits, looks good and can stand up to the dancing, I am less likely to get my Belly Dance Police badge out and start writing tickets. Because I have seen enough truly hobbyist dancers who will never dance professionally and will probably be done within 2 - 3 years, to know that not everyone wants to invest a couple of hundred dollars into a costume. Yes, they may be able to get a cheap Turkish or Egyptian bedlah for about the same amount of money, but as pointed out before, there is no guarantee that the quality is going to be any better or that there is no child labour, etc. involved. And yes, while there are other alternatives to these costumes, many teachers will bow to their students desires and find the least expensive way to fulfill them. And let's face it, if they want a bedlah. . .

Truth is, the only way to guarantee that your costumes are being made in a way which is ethical and fair is to make them yourself. Are you willing to do that?

{{{HUGS}}}

I think this web site is a prime example of the kind of undercutting the original post was referring to: Belly Dance Digs - Belly Dancing Clothing | Belly Dance Costumes

Not only does it sell knock-offs of Melodia pants for a quarter of what Melodia sells (because Melodia's are made in the U.S.), but it actually uses Melodia's name to describe them, thereby intercepting some Google search results for itself.

Not going to lie, if I had short legs I'd be all over those things.