Thread: sensitive obesity issue

As others have said more eloquently already, I couldn't care less about the body shape of the dancer -- I care about whether or not their performance moves me in some way.

Also, would like to share this link, particularly because I find the use of "obese" and "morbidly osbese" as medical terms really offensive and inaccurate.

Shakesville: Why BMI Is a Crock, in Pictures

There are a lot of things to discuss here, and I think the "weight issue" has been handled well, so, I shall steel myself and try to address the others.

Originally Posted by basil1

I am not sure if this is the correct forum for this but since I am asking about costuming I am assuming it's ok. . . . however, I do think at a certain point one should consider a belly covering costuming (this wasn't a hafla but a $20/ ticket show).

To the simple issue of costuming, just as the costumes should fit the music, they should fit the dancers. All of the dancers in the number. It is less important to me that all members of the troupe wear the same thing than that all of the dancers are flattered by the costumes. This is part of "presentation," and it can be linked to the "respecting the stage" thread.

Originally Posted by basil1

"I couldn't watch the rest of the troupe members because I couldn't stop watching the huge fat one" . . . They are a group of really good dancers but no one looks at the other dancers because this girl "is like watching a train wreck in slow motion- you don't wanna look but you can't take your eyes away"

So, the troupe is a group of "really good dancers," but no one can take their eyes off of her? That almost sounds like she is the best one up there. At the same time . . .

Of all of the things that bother me, the "train wreck" comment does the most. Is she a bad dancer? Does she forget steps? Is her costume coming off? That is train wreck material. Weight isn't. It can't be her dancing, because they are "really good dancers." So . . .

What makes this a train wreck, if not the poor costuming choices of an otherwise fine troupe?

Originally Posted by Saraia

As others have said more eloquently already, I couldn't care less about the body shape of the dancer -- I care about whether or not their performance moves me in some way.

Also, would like to share this link, particularly because I find the use of "obese" and "morbidly osbese" as medical terms really offensive and inaccurate.

Shakesville: Why BMI Is a Crock, in Pictures

I agree. Not necessarily with the term obese...but with the term morbidly obese. I think the correct term is severely obese.

One of the things I find really uncomfortable here is the idea that pro show (whatever that is) = Give The Audience What They Want, rather than "showcase the best of the real belly dance scene with talent and skill coming in all shapes, ages and sizes", as we know it does.

Market forces weed out the uncommercial from dancers competing for gigs in the "real" world, we all know that, and if e.g. a restaurant owner rates decorative over dancing it's frustrating and maybe even terrible business sense but what can you do? But when it comes to putting on a belly dance show or running a troupe, if it's dancers who should know better who have that control then why would you start doing exactly the same thing that restaurant owner is doing?

You might think about that if you were trying to run a commercial show/troupe, but i don't think that should be confused with professional in the "putting on a pro level show" sense. It might make commercial sense to have the dancers strip, or not use any of that weird-sounding foreign music.

And who knows what the audience really wants? Maybe the quietly inspired/ empowered audience members' reactions are drowned out by the "ewww no fat chicks" attitudes. Should we be second-guessing something like that and assuming the worst?

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

You might think about that if you were trying to run a commercial show/troupe, but i don't think that should be confused with professional in the "putting on a pro level show" sense.

Yes, let's separate this a little bit as far as troupes go.

If you run a troupe, then you are free to decide the size, shape, and talent you put in it. If you are in Hollywood and you are trying to run a high level troupe to perform at exclusive events, you can decide that you will only let in the gorgeous model-thin dancers who meet your standard.

When the BDSS started up, many of us were taken aback by their wish for quite young pretty dancers. But considering they wanted to tour the US and charge big bucks and make money, I think we can understand WHY -- whether or not we agree with it.

But I suspect the majority of troupes out there are more concerned with ability than appearance. They don't charge thousands for an evening's show. They are as likely to perform at county fairs and international fests as they are at restaurants. Market forces don't make those troupe leaders exclude the overweight or old.

NOW I will say something less popular. I have dancer friends who are a little heavier. I have suggested to one that she wear a belly cover, because I thought it would enhance her costume. But that was a specific incident and I certainly don't think they should be "required."

If, however, you live in a place where the market forces are different, you may feel less pressure to have the "conventionally beautiful" troupe members only.

And I wasn't saying don't allow fat dancers at pro shows or gigs. You can be successful and beautiful and an amazing performer, but you have to realize that not everyone is going to accept or appreciate you.

That's true about any of us, regardless of weight. I don't think an overweight dancer is any less aware of that than anyone else, which is why I'm not sure sharing comments re. her weight is useful.

Of all of the things that bother me, the "train wreck" comment does the most. Is she a bad dancer? Does she forget steps? Is her costume coming off? That is train wreck material. Weight isn't. It can't be her dancing, because they are "really good dancers." So . . .

What makes this a train wreck, if not the poor costuming choices of an otherwise fine troupe?

People's unashamed rudeness and willingness to share that is the train wreck, IMO.

People say nasty stuff all the time that has nothing to do with anything but their own set of beliefs. The OP hasn't indicated that the costume was ill-fitting, inaccurate to the style of dance being portrayed, or anything that may actually be an issue. The issue some others had (and who knows if that's everyone or just a small but vocal minority) was one dancer being larger than the rest.

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

But when it comes to putting on a belly dance show or running a troupe, if it's dancers who should know better who have that control then why would you start doing exactly the same thing that restaurant owner is doing?

This is exactly what I meant to be getting at before, thank you for saying it so much more clearly.

Originally Posted by indigostars

People's unashamed rudeness and willingness to share that is the train wreck, IMO.

No kidding. What sort of adult people go around being openly critical of other people's appearances? I wouldn't pay much attention to them, and I wouldn't think you need to say anything to the troupe director about them. She knows she has an overweight dancer in her troupe, and the dancer knows she's overweight, and they know some people will be critical. They've clearly opted to challenge those views.

My best friend is a beautiful jazz/tap/ballet dancer who has studied her whole life. She is severely/morbidly/whatever obese. She is also the most graceful dancer I've ever seen.

At her studio's professional recitals, I have sat near audience members who were literally ridiculing her and heckling her as she was performing. I usually tapped them on the shoulder and told them that was my friend and they were welcome to turn around and say those comments to my face. No one ever did - it's easy to talk about someone behind their back.

If a dancer was too skinny (which I've heard as well), would I rush to the troupe director and tell her how I heard a lot of comments on how thin dancer X was? If we were to lead our lives based on the opinions of others, none of us would ever leave the house again.

Ok, one more thing, because this is the best weight-related story I have. I've shared it before.

Once, I was dancing in a restaurant and a guy at a table right next to me was talking about how fat the bellydancer was. I leaned over and told him "The bellydancer's not deaf, either."

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Ok, one more thing, because this is the best weight-related story I have. I've shared it before.

Once, I was dancing in a restaurant and a guy at a table right next to me was talking about how fat the bellydancer was. I leaned over and told him "The bellydancer's not deaf, either."

Excellent story!

And similarly, the dancer referred to in the original post may well be reading this thread.

Hmm.

You know, I'm wagering that this has to do with the Club Bellydance tour.

Hmm.

As a member of the lurking peanut gallery - I just want to say how much I like this thread!

Talent is not measured by size or age...

This discussion reminds me of a thought I've had for years, about how the dominant societal view of "beauty" in the U.S. for many years (centuries) didn't include African American beauty. Many black people didn't think they were beautiful because blonde hair and blue eyes were held up as the ideal. Yet if you look around with clear eyes, it's astonishing to see just how beautiful African features can be. The mainstream society was in denial about it.

Similarly, large women can be beautiful dancers. This goes against the cultural standard of thin dancers with clearly defined muscles. Yet if you look around with clear eyes, you can see just how astonishingly talented some very large dancers can be.

That said, I do think each dancer should costume herself in the most flattering way, and if your belly is very large and wobbly, perhaps a covering of body stocking, dress or long fringe is not a bad idea. That's why I cover my own belly, though I am not obese. It's not a firm belly, and I want people to focus on my dancing, not on my wobbly belly.

I don't think it's a good idea to repeat negative comments to someone, it's like repeating bad gossip. It calls one's own motives into question and hurts the recipient of the bad news. There's no reason to do it. Just respond to the people who speak to you directly about the larger dancer, and tell them you like her dancing, or whatever, then let the subject drop. It would be lovely if you can help open their eyes to the beauty of her dancing, but they may have their minds firmly closed.

my big mouth would probably turn to the offensive audience member and point out that at least she's doing some kind of activity and not sitting / criticizing

Originally Posted by dunyah

That said, I do think each dancer should costume herself in the most flattering way, and if your belly is very large and wobbly, perhaps a covering of body stocking, dress or long fringe is not a bad idea. That's why I cover my own belly, though I am not obese. It's not a firm belly, and I want people to focus on my dancing, not on my wobbly belly.

Agree with everything you say, except that I love, love, love dancers who have lots of wobble, especially when they shimmy.

I think if a dancer is comfortable with her wobbling, more power to her. If not, then a belly stocking or dress is an option she can certainly choose.

Here's what Egyptian women think of our notion that only 'commercially slender' women should dance in front of people.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Ok, one more thing, because this is the best weight-related story I have. I've shared it before.

Once, I was dancing in a restaurant and a guy at a table right next to me was talking about how fat the bellydancer was. I leaned over and told him "The bellydancer's not deaf, either."

and from the other side of the coin - not so long ago I overhead two women complaining to the organiser of an event I was performing at. They wanted their money back because '"she's way too skinny to be a proper belly dancer!"

Ugh, Afra, that's awful. I've had to remind students and friends that those kinds of remarks are just as bad as the opposite.

I once had a group of young women that came to me because they found their previous teacher (a good friend of mine) "too skinny" and hard to identify with. The language they used to contrast us made me very uncomfortable. On top of that, the whole situation was really baffling because they were all just as slender and athletic as she was -- much MUCH slimmer than I -- but they clearly thought otherwise. People's preconceptions are really, really interesting sometimes. :(

Originally Posted by afra14

and from the other side of the coin - not so long ago I overhead two women complaining to the organiser of an event I was performing at. They wanted their money back because '"she's way too skinny to be a proper belly dancer!"

That happens to me all the time, too. People are unbelievably rude sometimes, and not everyone understands that size has nothing to do with talent.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Here's what Egyptian women think of our notion that only 'commercially slender' women should dance in front of people.

Awesome clip. Thx for sharing.

I am an older dancer (64) who weighs in at 200 lbs. I wear size L-XL street clothes, size 14 pants and skirts. I am tall, large boned, not thin, but not morbidly obese. I have a post menopausal belly that I wish was smaller.

Okay, now that is out of the way.

What I would say to these comments, and have said when I have heard them said about other dancers, "Isn't she a wonderful dancer?" Don't disagree with someone. Just pretend that their comments were meant to praise the dancer in question. Make them think that maybe they missed something while they were watching.

Whether or not the troupe leader is right or wrong to include this dancer in a professional troupe or require or not require her to wear a tummy cover is between the troupe leader and the members of her troupe.

But let me give you a view from the other side. I do wear dresses and nets when wearing two pieces simply because I think I look better that way. But I greatly resented dancing in a troupe where costumes were coordinated except for the larger girls who were asked to wear something different. And I found it demoralizing to have that pointed out to me in class in front of my fellow students and troupemates. Eventually I quit dancing in the troupe and only performed as a solo dancer. My life has been much happier and my dancing has only become richer and more part of my soul since making that decision.

Yes, the American general public has some expectation of what they think a belly dancer should look like. The reality is that a morbidly obese dancer is probably not going to be hired as a solo dancer in a restaurant or club. But there is way, way more to this dance form than that.

Souzan

Originally Posted by dunyah

That said, I do think each dancer should costume herself in the most flattering way, and if your belly is very large and wobbly, perhaps a covering of body stocking, dress or long fringe is not a bad idea. That's why I cover my own belly, though I am not obese. It's not a firm belly, and I want people to focus on my dancing, not on my wobbly belly.

Dunyah, this is the reason why I wear dresses and nets. Not only do I think it helps audience focus on my dancing, but it helps ME focus on it as well.

Originally Posted by afra14

and from the other side of the coin - not so long ago I overhead two women complaining to the organiser of an event I was performing at. They wanted their money back because '"she's way too skinny to be a proper belly dancer!"

Gaaaah, they actually said they wanted their money back on account of that? That is appalling and bizarre.

When I was a little thinner than I am now I also had someone once tell me I was "too skinny to be a belly dancer" -- and she thought she was paying me a compliment. <sigh>

Originally Posted by Saraia

As others have said more eloquently already, I couldn't care less about the body shape of the dancer -- I care about whether or not their performance moves me in some way.

Also, would like to share this link, particularly because I find the use of "obese" and "morbidly osbese" as medical terms really offensive and inaccurate.

Shakesville: Why BMI Is a Crock, in Pictures

I'm reminded of this site, too: Welcome - My Body Gallery - What Real Women Look Like

The kind of standards people want women particularly to conform to -- right down to making demands about quantifying weight in pounds as to what's "acceptable" -- is just flat-out ridiculous, and unrealistic. I might be carrying about 10 or 15 more pounds than I'd like, but rarely get told I look heavy or fat; I have a lot of muscle definition. But I weigh about 150 pounds at 5'1", which is allegedly teetering into that "obese" category. It's body type, but that hasn't stopped me from being told (when my actual weight is revealed) I weigh far too much and what I "should" weigh. To hell with that. We have women starving themselves to attain a "target weight" that isn't realistic for their body type. If I weighed what I've been told is the "right" weight for my height, I'd be ill, and I'd look it. I've been there and done that (when I was ill). Enough with the real-life concern-trolling body policing!

The assumption that a heavier woman MUST have health concerns because of her weight is nonsense as well. That's why "morbidly obese" sticks in my craw.

Other people's weight is NOT anyone's business.

Originally Posted by Suzana

I found your posts offensive, Lesedi. While we're all checking our perspectives, you might also want to check your use of language.

I don't understand what I said that could be considered offensive or bad language. If it's in reference to the words "obese" and "fat" I really don't know any other way of saying it and hope that someone here can kindly educate me as to how I misused any of those words. I was trying to be as PC as possible, and I definitely wasn't saying something outrageous like, "fat chicks go home." I was playing devil's advocate with regards to the commercial considerations of having a very large dancer in an American GP oriented paid show. Bad habit probably as I'm constantly having to do that when I teach to stir up interesting classroom discussions.

As far as the perspective comment goes, I was being sincere and wasn't implying that you all need to check your perspectives. Instead I was trying to say that conversations like these are a valuable way for all of us (mostly me) to hear a different angle or thought on the issue. I still stand by what I said in my posts, but I am also still forming an opinion on the whole thing, trying to keep an open mind, and have listened to and appreciated everything that everyone has said so far (and I agree with many of you at this point). That's what I meant by my comment on checking perspectives. I was not attacking anyone or saying that everyone is wrong except me (definitely not the case and not how I feel). It was more for me and how I approach and appreciate conversations and threads like this, because they help me see the other side, bring me out of ignorance, and sometimes even sway me to a different opinion than I had coming into it.

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

Also, fat people are everywhere, so I don't buy "shock" instead of negativity. Taboos and cultural norms are all about what's positively accepted or negatively shunned. So I stand by my comment re: negative people.

Anyone who choses to fixate on something to dislike or destroy instead of to see the part that's wonderful is coming from a negative space. But that's OK, because again - we don't need to own that negativity.

And to be completely honest. As a beginner at my first hafla, I was incredibly shocked to see a 400 pound woman dancing. Did I say anything to anyone about it? Definitely not (until this thread anyway). But I did think about it, and I was quite shocked. I'm used to seeing dancers of all sizes now, so I can appreciate a dancer for her performance now and not her looks (and I'm happy that others can do the same for me too). But I do understand how the GP might comment and react to a very large dancer, because I felt that way once too. It takes a lot to bust taboos and cultural norms... I don't think it's fair to expect an uninitiated audience to appreciate beauty and skill at any size.

Originally Posted by Suzana

Ugh, Afra, that's awful. I've had to remind students and friends that those kinds of remarks are just as bad as the opposite.

I once had a group of young women that came to me because they found their previous teacher (a good friend of mine) "too skinny" and hard to identify with. The language they used to contrast us made me very uncomfortable. On top of that, the whole situation was really baffling because they were all just as slender and athletic as she was -- much MUCH slimmer than I -- but they clearly thought otherwise. People's preconceptions are really, really interesting sometimes. :(

Sometimes you really do have to wonder what goes on in people's head don't you? I've faced flak from inside my own dance community over the years for being slender - sorry folks I can't help the way I am built! When I was recovering from a serious illness I went up two dress sizes. A reviewer in a dance mag said 'at last Afra has a real woman's figure!' The same woman actually accused me of 'letting the side down' when I went back down to my normal weight. :(

As I said earlier - I don't care what someone's dress size is, it's the dancing I'm there for!

I don't think it's fair to expect an uninitiated audience to appreciate beauty and skill at any size.

Ah, that would explain why so many of those poor poor Americans just can't handle having a black president. Because they're not initiated. The poor dears.

I think it is reasonable to expect any audience of any art form to watch and ask themselves why what they are looking at has been deemed worthy of an audience's time, instead of dismissing it right away as bad or wrong because they don't understand it. They can certainly still come to the conclusion that what they saw was bad. But if it's on a stage someone must have thought it was valuable, so they could educate themselves a little.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I think it is reasonable to expect any audience of any art form to watch and ask themselves why what they are looking at has been deemed worthy of an audience's time, instead of dismissing it right away as bad or wrong because they don't understand it. They can certainly still come to the conclusion that what they saw was bad. But if it's on a stage someone must have thought it was valuable, so they could educate themselves a little.

But then it comes back to the fact that often the general public doesnt see bellydance as "art" at all, but as just something entertaining (and to alot of people part of the entertainment is what they think of as a beautiful dancer in a sparkly costume). Not saying that is right, but its certainly not untrue in many cases.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Ah, that would explain why so many of those poor poor Americans just can't handle having a black president. Because they're not initiated. The poor dears.

Yes. That's the common reason given for allowing prejudice to be the arbiter, isn't it? The burden is on one to pander to the prejudice and not upset its carrier, rather than the carrier of such to be challenged.