Thread: I'll probably get fired for posting this

and admittedly I don't check back on bhuz enough to carry on a good debate but I just wanted to share a recent email from a dancer (I will just share the content not the name or who the photo is from originally as I am not sure who it belongs to)

an unnamed dancer sent me an image of someone else's work, some big cape thing i can't even tell how it's designed but it's called cape wings??? the unnamed dancer asked if i could make them. First of all, I have no pattern, and that is sooo not cool to find something on another vendor/artist/designer/supplier site and send me the photo. Second of all, who the hell other than a few burning man or fusion dancers are going to want big dancing capes? I tend to make rectangle veils and half circle veils, those items that can be sold with a quick turnaround..I keep my overhead VERY low and it reflects in my prices. Third..no at this time I don't offer cape wings. And don't plan to. I can make capes, I can make wings , but I am unsure what this 'special secret sauce' thing is that the unnamed dancer wrote to me about. And hey..ask the original designer? or supplier to make them for you, please don't email me with someone else's photo asking me to make them and lowball me an offer. jeesh.

I'm stocking standards now..rectangle veils in various widths and lengths that can be USED for poi or fans but I do not offer finished poi or fans. My overhead would be thru the roof to keep all those items stocked. Then i'd have to charge like $110 a pair for them. Huh uh I dye silk, so they're cheap (not as cheap as the stripey ebay wonders but they are handmade)

Also offer half circle veils in two different sizes

and skirts on occasion

other items I don't really advertise to dancers as I don't think they will have much interest in a see thru beach caftan. I have an entirely separate market than dance and MOST of it is not advertised online as it's local .

But anyways sorry for the rant or maybe I'm not sorry..I don't like when dancers email me someone else's work and ask if I can make it. I stick to the standard stuff ..experimental stuff is too expensive to make. I tried out the wired hem petal skirts and 'specialty' veils for fun and both flopped. I'd rather make beach wear :)

fire away..I'll be back in a few days (I won't name the dancer who sent me the email and I'm not even sure who is it offering silk cape wings but the answer is no, I won't do it )

Well now . . . You probably got this inquiry because of your reputation for doing beautiful and high-quality work with silk for dance. If it's not a project you want to take on that's understandable, and so you can say "No, thank you." But it seems like being asked has made you feel really irritated rather than flattered and I'm wondering why that should be. Unless it's just something in the "tone" of the e-mail that bothered you -?

Rosette

Originally Posted by jesennia

an unnamed dancer sent me an image of someone else's work, some big cape thing i can't even tell how it's designed but it's called cape wings??? the unnamed dancer asked if i could make them. First of all, I have no pattern, and that is sooo not cool to find something on another vendor/artist/designer/supplier site and send me the photo. Second of all, who the hell other than a few burning man or fusion dancers are going to want big dancing capes?

I would be uncomfortable with the ethics of copying someone else's design like that, too, but I'm not sure about the second question. I remember when people didn't understand why anyone would want Isis wings other than a handful of pharaonic dancers, and when people were walking around complaining that silk fans were Asian and not even the right ethnicity for belly dance, but those props caught on for mainstream use anyway. If it's a new gimmick (or in this case, a new twist on an old gimmick), someone will always want it, and it's anybody's guess why some things become popular and others don't.

Just wondering, are the cape wings something like what is in this video? If so, it's nothing new.

I don't know about the cape issue, but I want the skirt on that video...

Seeing that you're your own boss I can't imagine who would or could fire you.

I can't imagine anyone here is going to disagree with your stand not to deliberately copy the works of others for a client. It's generally agreed here on Bhuz that it is uncool to ask artists to do knock-offs of the works of others. You're preaching to the choir.

"Inspired by" is a WHOLE 'nother kettle of fish, but it doesn't sound like that's what this is about.

Big capes were popular in the eighties, and there seems to be some revival of interest in them. Unless there was something special about the design you were asked to copy, just making a big cape seems pretty generic to me, and not a rip off of someone's unique design, so I'm not sure why this rubbed you the wrong way. A huge silk cape might be spectacular on some dancers, I was always a bit put off by the chiffon ones that resembled lingerie, especially the ones with a ruffle, it was not a look that I wanted for my own costuming.

Originally Posted by ozma

Seeing that you're your own boss I can't imagine who would or could fire you.

I'm guessing she meant 'flamed'?

I don't have the time to check out the video now, so I can not comment on actual dancing with a cape... But a cape would make a cool cover-up, if planned well?

Originally Posted by Safran

I don't have the time to check out the video now, so I can not comment on actual dancing with a cape... But a cape would make a cool cover-up, if planned well?

To me.... it looks like isis wings without the sticks. and seemed to dance with it like that... spinning etc. then removed them (2 separate pieces) for the rest of the dance.

Not a silk cape, but a cape, used in bellydance...

I found this ad. Please note the warning to all copycats!

ORDER YOUR: NEW June2012! Very FULL CAPE-STYLE Floor -Length SILK WINGS by Fairy Cove - Fairy Cove Silks.com

Other than the use of the tie-die silk, I"m not sure if I agree with the "original design" concept as the Samara video proves the detachable cape style wings have been around for a while.

Although technically this looks like a cape that is split in the back and not really a wing. Nothing new there either has I made a cape with that design over 10 years ago.

ORDER YOUR: NEW June2012! Very FULL CAPE-STYLE Floor -Length SILK WINGS by Fairy Cove - Fairy Cove Silks.com

It's an interesting concept but I am not sure how original the idea is, those cape wings by Fairy Cove look quite a bit like those of Claire de Lune circa 2008. I think the main difference is she is offering them in color. The video is mesmerizing:

Oh, and check out these illuminated wings! SOOOOO coool!

Here's another from 2007:



From the 1890's:

Now, all that being said - Jesennia is 100% right - anyone wanting these should purchase from Meag at Fairy Cove. Not only are you getting what I estimate to be the equivalent of 4 veils in these, they would take a large amount of time as well to sew the pockets and closure. Her price is pretty good for that.

exactly! Who's to know who came first with any idea..maybe a better way to word it is 'first to introduce for sale in tie dye colors to...??

there's so many ideas out there it's damn hard to pin it down to who it came to first, if not simulataneously..especially with internet it's making it easier and easier to track down originals

I have this idea for a device for babies, it's so dang good (but I have no idea how to make it) and I am willing to bet someone else out there has had the same exact idea.

Patents are funny like that. And truthfully if you alter one small part of a "design" then the patent won't cover it.

But I do understand Fairycove wanting to corner the market on silk cape wings. There's a benefit to being the only one who offers something. They won't have any competition or stealing from me I'm much too interested in clothing in fact sometimes I'm surprised that ombre style veils are even still popular :) But I'll continue dyeing them as long as they are wanted.

I wish FC the best though! Might try marketing to some theatrical dance companies or even Burning Man. And her price seems more than fair considering how much silk goes into making them.

I'm gonna go doodle with dresses and figure out how to buy lighted wings. Damn those are cool!

Originally Posted by Shaula

Now, all that being said - Jesennia is 100% right - anyone wanting these should purchase from Meag at Fairy Cove. Not only are you getting what I estimate to be the equivalent of 4 veils in these, they would take a large amount of time as well to sew the pockets and closure. Her price is pretty good for that.

I know - I want those lighted wings now too LOL! Too cool.

Regarding the clip from the 1890s, there is no "claims to be" about it, that is Loie Fuller, she was extremely famous for her large winged dresses and her performances included colored lights illuminating the performance as she went along.

It is your prerogative to make or not make whatever you choose, but it doesn't seem worth getting upset about it when you are asked to make something somebody has seen elsewhere. Just say no or come up with a fee that would work for you for making custom work.

As far as copying another designer's original work, it is very respectful and appropriate to not want to replicate somebody else's original idea.

In this situation the concept of the wing / cape and variations thereof have been documented as being around since at least the 1800s, so creating something in that realm isn't stealing anything new. That is a little like seeing a dancer doing undulations before you had learned them and then choosing not to put any undulations in your dance because they had done it before you. It gets to a point of ridiculousness, there is very little new under the sun, mostly just new variations on very old themes.

If this designer has come up with a truly original re-interpretation of the concept, she could have an argument, but as far as I can tell it isn't a significantly different from several large capey wingy things I've seen dancers using for years.

So should you decide you wanted to offer your own version of a capey/wingy thing, I think you would be totally justified in doing so. You'd just have to choose the details that would make it your own.

Understandable, the part I don't like is the dancer using someone else's photo from their own website and asking if I can do it for $70 . It just seems deliberately underhanded to me to purposefully take someone else's picture and send to me to ask .. had it been found on the internet without any source or name attached that's a different story but it was taken directly from the vendor's site.

Originally Posted by Safran

I don't have the time to check out the video now, so I can not comment on actual dancing with a cape... But a cape would make a cool cover-up, if planned well?

The trick to making a cape function as a cover up is - Armholes! Without arm holes, one must open the front of the cape to use ones hands/arms, and reveals the costume beneath. I have a couple of cape style cover ups, they can be quite mysterious

Originally Posted by Shaula

It's an interesting concept but I am not sure how original the idea is, those cape wings by Fairy Cove look quite a bit like those of Claire de Lune circa 2008. I think the main difference is she is offering them in color. The video is mesmerizing:

Serena Wilson danced with a sheer cape back in the 70s. There's a photo of her in a cape in one of her books.

Originally Posted by jesennia

Understandable, the part I don't like is the dancer using someone else's photo from their own website and asking if I can do it for $70 . It just seems deliberately underhanded to me to purposefully take someone else's picture and send to me to ask .. had it been found on the internet without any source or name attached that's a different story but it was taken directly from the vendor's site.

People are always going to try to get things for cheaper. Some of it is deliberate and some of it is just not knowing what things are worth.

Originally Posted by Shaula

I know - I want those lighted wings now too LOL! Too cool.

And add me to that list as well! Those are incredible!!!!!

Originally Posted by jesennia

Understandable, the part I don't like is the dancer using someone else's photo from their own website and asking if I can do it for $70 . It just seems deliberately underhanded to me to purposefully take someone else's picture and send to me to ask .. had it been found on the internet without any source or name attached that's a different story but it was taken directly from the vendor's site.

On that I agree. The price they are asking is way too low for materials labor and design development. For me I would be more understanding if the intent was trying to have something special made, like a special variation on the theme that suited them specifically, then just hitting up a new vendor to have more or less the exact same product made for a lower price. You should get to set your own price for sure.

Originally Posted by jesennia

Understandable, the part I don't like is the dancer using someone else's photo from their own website and asking if I can do it for $70 . It just seems deliberately underhanded to me to purposefully take someone else's picture and send to me to ask .. had it been found on the internet without any source or name attached that's a different story but it was taken directly from the vendor's site.

This. I understand asking for help with something that is hard to find. I appreciate the costumer who replicated our original bedlah for new troupe members when our previous costumer proved unreliable. I make a "universal fantasy/sci-fi" cloak which I am willing to tweak to make you look as much as possible like your favorite character, but using my own design. That's all legit. Asking an artisan to abandon their own creative projects and preferences, not because you need help and can't find anyone else but because you want something cheaper or more convenient is just plain disrespectful, of both the original artist and the one of whom you are making the request. It also reveals you right up front as a PITA client who will probably ***** and complain through the whole process and is not worth working with. Ever. I guarantee every artisan out there has dealt with these kinds of requests and it is extremely frustrating. Think about a dance client who spends half an hour on the phone saying they just love bellydance, but they want you to do acrobatics like they saw on cirque du soleil and charge $50. It is crazy making! Don't do it!

design and development is hugely expensive! and then there's no guarantee the item will fly.. so to speak

aside from dyeing silks and veils I work with a dear friend who is also a clothing designer in Bali. we spend a lot of time and money collaborating on designs. I'm good at selecting fabric and/or dyeing it but I don't sew. She has a rock solid seamstress. We've spent HOURS on skype and express mail fees getting stuff back and forth ..we have some winners and some that flop. But I sooo love doing it and am greatful that my nurse income can fund such projects :)