Thread: How to handle this, ladies and gents?

I've been approached by a student from another class asking my charges. I am in line with two other teachers in the area but this girl's teacher charges 50% more and she, the student is on a limited income.
We all get on reasonably well in the area and I would hate to be thought of as "undercutting anyone".
How to handle? Should I feel bad?

Are your rates comparable with others in your area? If they are, perhaps this other instructor is charging higher than everone else instead of you charging way less than everyone else. I think it is okay that she would want to move to you due to price. For some, this is a hugh issue, it is for me. Beginners don't always know if they want to pay for expensive classes until they know how classes will workout and as they advance, they would pay higher prices. If you are really worried about this and you get along well with the other instructor, talk to her about about the pricing and compare notes. See if this is something that might cause a rift and go from there.

This'll be your rate for private classes compared to her rate for private classes, eh Liz?

No, I wouldn't feel bad - not if your rates are in parallel with other teachers, in the main. My own private teaching rate was on a par with other teachers of my dance level, but it meant I was higher than some others. I always accepted that students chosing on the basis of price came with the territory - after all, what other criterion are newbies going to use to choose a teacher? They sure don't know you from Eve!

It might be seen as "poaching" by the old teacher and really, there's nothing you can do about that but be nice if and when the situation arises. But fact is - students pick and chose their classes, and that's their right... they're no-ones property.

You know..I have been watching these undercutting discussions with some interest and curiosity. I am a realtor in my "unreal life" and it is the only career I have ever had. If I were to collude with my competitors about fixing fees in my local area, my state or nationally ... I, and anyone I was conspiring with would be subject to federal anti trust violations and subject to heavy fines and even jail time. I believe the same may be true of doctors and lawyers and maybe other professionals as well, I am only guessing here. I have been trained that the market place should seek and find it's own level and that competitors should not fix prices amoung themselves to the detriment of the general public. At my office we charge based on the cost of doing business plus an appropriate profit margin. We have cut rate real estate firms here as well...but people are welcome to contrast level of services to the fees charged and make a decision based on that as well as anyother factors that may come into play. If you were to put your home up for sale, would you want an agent who had just spent their lunch hour price fixing with the other firm you were about to call for an opinion of value? Tell me why this is ok to do as performers and teachers who are not affilited with each other in a common business venture. It just doesnt feel right to me. But...as I stated..I have never done anything else professionally...and I am the only bellydance game in town so setting my teaching and performing fees is a matter of my personal choice after considering my costs and do not impact on anyone elses practice, and even if it did, it is not my business...literally.

Am I all wet here? Go ahead...I can take it!!!

Anala, legally you are correct. It's the same in my "daytime" field -- language services, specifically in the area of law. Practically speaking, though, as dancers we get away with it, because we're too small and informal an economy for the entities that enforce such things to notice or care. (There are other legal issues associated with our art form to which this also applies, but you won't catch me stirring up that hornets' nest again any time soon!)

Whenever this question comes up someone will cite sources supposedly proving that setting professional rates has nothing whatsoever to do with price-fixing (which it does), mixed up with lots of arguments for why it's in our interest to set prices or at least price ranges (which it absolutely is). I concur with the latter but don't buy the former, and neither do the attorneys for whom I work. The principle is the same whether you're in real estate, translation, or bellydance, but only the first is regulated meaningfully, or at all. Lucky for us. ..g.:

that hornets' nest again any time soon

ahh..come on!! What did you do? You can tell a sister...;-)

Liz, you're fine. The student is just shopping around, as is her right. If your rates were much lower than those other two teachers you'd have good reason to consider raising them, and if you had lowered your established rates specifically in order to poach the higher-priced teacher's students that would seem dubious to me. But neither of those is the case here. Congratulations on continuing to build your program!

Originally Posted by anala

ahh..come on!! What did you do? You can tell a sister...;-)

Hah -- that's more than my life's worth. They know where I live!
<hears footsteps>
Oh, no! I've said too much already! Aieee....
<scufflescufflethump>
<silence>

When it comes to class pricing, many factors can contribute to one location having higher rates. E.g., classes offered through the local folk music society are extremely expensive, even though (at least when I took one course there) the location sucked royally (the teacher had to bring her own stereo, and we had to move furniture before and after class!). They just had their set rates for classes - from bagpipes to bellydance. As long as a class is in line with the general rates (possible adjustments could weigh in location, studio quality, parking situation, ... ), I wouldn't worry.

There is no way I can compete with the very low cost of the community center, but on the other hand there are two or three big names close by that charge very high rates. I'm sort of in the middle with most of the other instructors in the area. I don't feel like I'm undercutting or overcharging. I have a feeling your situation is similar. So... go for it.

I think you're fine, Liz. Whenever we talk about undercutting, we talk about the fact that there should be a *standard minimum* and that some people may be able to charge more than that, but essentailly, anyone who feels they aren't worth the minimum should reconsider beginning to teach.

Sounds like in your case, one teacher can command a higher rate. She must know that this means she'll lose some students who are price-shoppers, and she'll gain some who are quality-shoppers. OTOH, I realize that some people want EVERYTHING all at once and will always blame others for the problems they create. If that's the case, there's nothing you can do about it.

Anala, your daytime field is very different because:
1) You have to be licensed to practice at all
2) No one is volunteering to sell real estate for nothing just because it's fulfilling for them.

If you take away points 1 & 2, realtors WOULD begin banding together and discussing reasonable rates. Actually, my guess is that they DID at some point early in time form the Associations that still stand today for exactly that purpose, and I'll also guess that there is a de facto minimum rate that most realtors adhere to.

It would be price fixing if we tried to force compliance in some way from the undercutters, but that's not what's happening. All that goes on so far is education -- professionals discussing what the market will bear, the hidden costs that go into performance, what other pros are charging in this and similar fields, etc. There is no enforcement of any kind, only education and discussion.

2) No one is volunteering to sell real estate for nothing just because it's fulfilling for them.

These days - thats a bit what it feels like!!! LOL

Not to thread jack too shamefully, the National Association was formed to stop price fixing, not to start it and to get all Realtors to adhere to a strict code of ethics. Not all real estate licensees are Realtors.

de facto minimum rate that most realtors adhere to.

Nope...our fees are falling all over the place for the last few years..

I'm not disagreeing with what Lauren wrote above, but I do want to add that there have been efforts in some markets toward forcing compliance, and that's where it gets sticky. Those are the situations I was mainly thinking of -- where there is that element of coercion or a move to institute it.

On the one hand we have "let's educate dancers about reasonable rates" and "let's not encourage undercutters by referring gigs to them or helping them get work" -- both of these are absolutely legitimate. But often the discussion slips into "dancers who are charging less shouldn't be allowed to work" and "let's band together to keep them out" and that's where we run into potential problems, as I understand the law.

Am I all wet here? Go ahead...I can take it!!!

I would say dancers are more akin to actors using union scale rather than fixing the marketplace. Unfortunately, we don't have a union. You think SAG would take us?

I live in an area that pays dancers the least in probably the entire country, not because of undercutting per se (at least not always) but because we have sooooo many dancers here. I frequently see what happens when dancers are paid what the market will bear ... bupkiss. And that's not a close cousin of hummus.

Sounds to me like your rate is just fine and that hers is the one out of notch.

If the average rate is to be raised effectively in your area, the best way is to do so collaboratively, I feel.

If she just raised hers out of the blue, I don't feel that you should be obliged to follow suit (although you could, if you wanted).

You wont believe what I charge, and I am competiton free! I just cant charge more, cause my market wont bear it. I will have an empty studio. I am a true non profit.

I really would like it if all the dance/teahcers got together and agreed on what was a the right rate for the job. But what is that? As a matter of fact I pay the most rent and have to travel more but I have done my sums. Also I do put off students as I charge for blocks of lessons. I just will NOT do drop in..either you are serious about dancing or keeping fit or what's the point? I do allow students to buy 4 out of 8 lessons in case they are shift workers.
At the start of this block yet again I had the ...."but I only managed 1 or 2 out of the last block, can't I have them" and this was said while everyone else who hasn't yet paid is listening in. My rent ,my teacher training, my insurances my expenses are no respecter of weeks off I have to remind folks. Sooo I am no easy option for a potential student.
Thank you for your thoughts. I shall stop feeling preturbed.

slight spin-off, referring back to the original student in question who is on a limited income...

does anybody offer classes on a sliding scale? or a scholarship basis? the idea first occurred to me when I read a blurb on a local dancer's website that 'she believes all women deserve access to dance instruction' and that she was willing to adjust her fees if you asked. I thought that was a really neat idea. and, with the nonprofit dance org I work for, we learned that for better access to grants we should offer certain discounts or scholarships - so for any of our workshops we let area teachers know that if they have a student that could use help with the fees, they can write a very brief essay, and the 'winner' will get a discount or free ride.

either way, it's possible to offer instruction in very specific instances, as needed, for lower than the area rate, without undercutting anybody.

If a dancer contacted me privately about missing classes through illness or unemployement or bereavement, I would always carry on ready paid for block payments. What I won't do is what happened last week when a girl who pops in and out a lot asks in front of everyone if she can do that!
I would charge 14-18 year old students less if they asked but the 2 I have just cough up my fees which are not a lot by gym and night class standards anyway.I teach in an affluent area.
I would also do one off classes cheap for say women's groups in deprived areas.
At teacher training I spoke with a teacher who actually is paid nothing ...yup no wages but all her expenses training, equipment and premises are covered. She teaches in a very run down city area and it's community work. That I would do any day.

I've made allowances for specific students when there is a compelling reason why they've missed a lot of classes in a session.

I don't offer a sliding scale, but I have offered work/study, and continue to do so.

I'm always fascinated by these discussions; so many of us want to do the right thing! But, as was pointed out, many factors go into my fees.

I have one ongoing class for which I charge $5. Don't scream, I'm not undercutting! I am working through the hospital's wellness committee, and I get the room free and am under their liability. They handle the promotions. When I need to move to a studio, they know that I need to up my rates to cover the room.

My professional class, which is always limited in size, is $15. Which makes me comparable to everyone else.

Could there be claims of undercuting? Maybe, but it's not on purpose. This is a community service.

Kitty

When I was unemployed, one teacher offered to lower her tuition price if I did some website work for her. I don't know if you're in the position to have someone help you like that, but I think the work-study idea is a good one