Thread: I'm so green (subtitled: help me with live bands)

And I don't mind jealousy or costume color..w.:

So I feel pretty confident performing to a CD but I've discovered a whole new area where there are different rules, assumptions, etc. Live bands. Tell me all your tips for dancing with a live band.

Two weeks ago, I showed up to dance with a live band for the first time at a restaurant, and the organizer was out sick, so I had to figure everything out for myself. I was only supposed to dance for five minutes, but no other dancers had showed up that night (everyone was sick). I ended up doing several songs. After the drum solo, they announced my name and I thanked them and bowed - and asked "Is there another song?" One guy said "yes", the other "no", so when they struck up with another song - I used it as my exit music - and got off the stage. I asked my teacher about this later and she said I was probably right - after all, you don't want to outstay your welcome.

So this time, I went back because she needed to see me do the five minute show before I can be on the ten minute schedule. I arranged my set with the band (Aziza, short veil, drum solo). It was going pretty well (except the drum solo, despite people's compliments, that particular drummer always makes me feel like we're playing battleship and he's winning)...and then after the drum solo, they announce my name. I take my bow and gather my veil and put my zills on and dance out of the restaurant (to a 9/8). Later on, the organizer asked me if I didn't know how to do karsilama? I said "No, I can do a little karsilama, given the right costume." She said "Oh, well, you left during your karsilama so I thought maybe you didn't like them. I know you didn't tell them to do one, but they probably wanted to let you dance a little longer." We talked a little more and she said "I think you haven't danced with a live band before?" and I agreed - that's true.

So now I'm freaked out that I've insulted the band by leaving during the last song! And for some reason, every time I do a show with a live band (this is my third), I feel anxious and confused afterwards instead of exhilarated. I know dancing with a live band is supposed to be great.... but I haven't felt that yet. I really want to do it - it's part of the tradition - and the audience on band nights is a great family audience. But I need all the help I can get not to make any more n00b mistakes.

By the way, should I email the band to apologize for leaving during the last song or....do you think they even noticed? I'm not even sure if there is supposed to exit music or if you're supposed to stay on stage until the music stops. I'm not sure when to leave! I don't want to be the dancer who never leaves.

communication is the key. So yes email them and ask if you were exiting at the wrong place and if they will let you know what music they are going to use for the finale.

If you are working with the same band regularly, get to know the way they work, the songs they like their quirks. Talk to other dancers that have worked with them, go see other dancers shows when they work with them. Talk to the band to about how they like to do things, talk to them about how to cue off one another. They may give you some valuable hints. Every band is a little different. Often there is a point man you ask questions to que off of or que to etc. See if you can ferret out who that is and direct your questions mostly to him or her.


Next know what you want your show to be and then communicate that with the band. They should, in theory do what you ask. Usually you will communicate that in advance of the night of the show and right before the show if possible, name tunes and hum them, etc. Feel free to be specific, even with the drummer. You can ask for a particular drum song if you have one on CD (give it to the drummer in advance), sometimes drummers will do that for you. Or just ask for a pattern of rhythms, start maqsoom for a while, break into rolls in the middle then go into an ayoob. If they know you know what you want, they are more likely to give it to you.

Be ready to roll with whatever. They often have a mind of their own and they might ignore your cues even if they discussed them with you. Be ready to just go with it with a smile.

Drum solos are a particular adventure. Stick close to your drummer, stand right next to him, look at him and try to guess where is going. He should be repeating patterns of 4 so you can catch on. If he isn't and is all over the place that's when you have to pull out your sense of humor. Interact with the drummer, joke around with him. If there is no way you can follow what the drummer is doing, then see if you can have fun with it instead. There are some really fine example of how to do this around, look for dancers who can pull this off and learn how.

There are a lot of little tricks and cues and things that happen in live shows if you pay attention. Watch a lot of live shows on video or in person and pay attention to what is happening between the dancer and the band, how and when they interact, how they cue off one another, how they start and how they finish each song and each set, when the dancer ignores her band and what happens, when the band ignores their dancer and what happens then.

don't be afraid to talk to your band between the songs in your sets. you can request an ending even. Can you play the finale next? I'm tired. Or what do you think, should we throw in a karsilama before the end. You do have a say. or at least you should.

I've learned it's generally a bad idea to tell the band "surprise me".

Ask for a specific finale. It sounds like you don't know when you are expected to leave. If they don't give you the finale you asked for, you should be able to recognize a finale, dance until it comes or until the band gets on the mic and says "thank you - good-bye". Any band worth it's salt should give you a finale, actually 2 finales. The first finale you take your bows, thank your audience, show your appreciation for the band and thank them, dance a tiny bit and do a ta-da ending pose. The second finale if for you to dance your way off stage.

Thanks Shems - that answers my questions about "finales". Next time I will wait for the second finale to leave. And I will talk to the band about this before my show.

Every time I go, I give them some song requests but that doesn't mean that they play them. The first time I asked for Aziza and a drum solo, and I got Aziza, a LOOOOOONG Bir Demet, and a drum solo. The second time I asked for Aziza, a short veil and a drum solo - and I got Aziza, a chiftetelli, a drum solo, and a karsilama.

A mid-set "veil song" usually means a chiftitelli to an American band (could be a rumba/bolero also). Sounds like you have Turks playing, yes? Karsilama is the traditional final song for "AmCab" sets, so Shems' advice is good. And do make sure you thank the band by acknowledging them before you go offstage (you probably know this but it's important).

The more you work with them and talk to them, the more fun it will be for you. And just remember the audience is impressed that you're up there in the first place! :)

Looks like a job for...Dancing to Live Music Workshop!

As mentioned above, communication is very important, as is listening to the band. My co-facilitators explain, for example, that they can't stand it when they're playing a piece of music and then they stop playing but the dancer is still dancing. Or the dancer is not keeping eye contact during a finale to know exactly when to end. Proximity is important. You can go out and dance with the audience but drum solos (also mentioned by Shems) and finales, stick close by.

Drum solo is usually a very focused part of the set (perhaps why they announced your name), normally followed by a medium/fast song that can be used as tip/get the audience up to dance/finale number.

If they are dancer-friendly, conscientious musicians, it helps to speak with them before the set to understand what kind of set they intend to play. Not necessarily the songs and how long (often they don't know that until they're playing), but at least if they're going to do a fast-slow-drum-medium-exit format, etc. Sometimes they'll want to know what you'd like to dance to.

Hopefully you will get to perform with them more often so that you build a familiarity with each other's styles. Dancing to live music is awesome and when I'm "lazy" it's the best, I don't have to worry about a CD or set choreography. It is extremely helpful to listen to music constantly so that whatever they play, you've at least heard it once.

Keep smiling, keep your ears open, and have a great time!

Originally Posted by nasila

A mid-set "veil song" usually means a chiftitelli to an American band (could be a rumba/bolero also). Sounds like you have Turks playing, yes? Karsilama is the traditional final song for "AmCab" sets, so Shems' advice is good. And do make sure you thank the band by acknowledging them before you go offstage (you probably know this but it's important).

The more you work with them and talk to them, the more fun it will be for you. And just remember the audience is impressed that you're up there in the first place! :)

Armenians - I think. I found that out when I googled them today to email them. Most of our bands here are Turkish, Greek, Armenian or a combination thereof. There are also Lebanese bands but they usually play - as far as I can tell - at different places than where I'm dancing. Most of the music is standard AmCab fare. Not my favorite, but it's what we got. I do love Aziza though.

Oh, come on! Surprise me can be fun! See my Youtube!

One piece of advise I read long, long ago was that when you are dancing to live music - especially to unkown band - you tune into the drummer. If he is dancer friendly, you'll be fine. If not, then, well, you are the dancer. Play with him! Challenge him! Make him work for you! It can be a great time for all concerned to see if you can start getting the drummer to doum and tek when YOU want him to!

{{{HUGS}}}

The drummer wrote back to my email and said that they absolutely did not take offense to my leaving the stage and look forward to working with me again. Phew!

I am loving this thread. Live music scares the bejesus out of me - I haven't done it in years and so I've had a lot of time to think about why it makes me nervous! I wish I had all these little tips when I used to dance with a band - it might have made me a little less terrified!

Originally Posted by nasila

Karsilama is the traditional final song for "AmCab" sets, s

Karsilama is the final song, but not the finale song right? Just want to make sure I understand you correctly here.

Yeah, I think a Karsilama is often the final song in an AmCab-style set, but then they will play a short finale (often a little clip of the entry song, in this case Aziza) so the dancer can dance off stage...just a few bars or so.

I do think it's better to skip out early than outstay your welcome though...no biggie to dance off stage during the 9/8 as long as you bow and thank the band first! :)

Lots of people have posted great tips. I know Artemis (Mourat) (www.serpentine.org) wrote a really extensive article on working with a band. You could definitely email her and buy a copy.

If you know what band you're dancing to before a show, and they have a CD, buy it and listen to it. If they don't, go watch other shows they do, talk to other dancers who have worked with them.

Talk to the musicians before the show, be friendly, request songs by name, or be able to hum them in case they don't recognize the names or you don't know the names. If you don't know the songs they play at all, it can help to request, for instance, an entrance with a specific rhythm, a slow 9 for a veil piece, followed by saidi for cane, followed by a drum solo, followed by a fast finale...whatever you like. Or ask them what they like to play, ask how you can communicate with them better, see if you recognize the songs or like their typical set structure. And I think it always helps to be enthusiastic, friendly, listen carefully to what's being played, and genuinely enjoy the music that's being played.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Later on, the organizer asked me if I didn't know how to do karsilama? I said "No, I can do a little karsilama, given the right costume." She said "Oh, well, you left during your karsilama so I thought maybe you didn't like them. I know you didn't tell them to do one, but they probably wanted to let you dance a little longer." We talked a little more and she said "I think you haven't danced with a live band before?" and I agreed - that's true.

Sounds like the organiser doesn't know anything about it either otherwise they would tell you want I'm telling you now.

For an Arabic band, when you hear a song with the Malfouf rhythm, normally after the drum solo, that is the exit song. You take a bow, acknowledge the band, maybe do some travelling moves with a veil if you want, then exit.

Don't feel bad not knowing. First, none of this is written down. It normally Arabic tradition to past this information on aurally. Second, back in the days when it was common to work with bands the dancer would go to band practice.

Now in this particular case it was unusual that after the drum solo the band did Karsilama. They probably did want you to stay longer it it was out of the norm.

Going to a more advanced stage of working with live music, if the band is playing a set piece, eg Aziza, the dancer can choose to stop the melody while the drummers keep going on the same rhythm for a drum solo phrase of a few bars before the dancer chooses to start up the melody section again.

You would only do this if the band really do know how to follow the dancer's signals. Unfortunately these days it's true to say this generation of musicians don't know how to work properly with dancers.

Thanks HubicRuzz.

Now, I am going to have the chance to perform with a different live band, that someone told me is a bit more "Arabic" in style. She said there wouldn't be any long slow rhumbas, which means I don't have to start with a veil wrap. I hope they know some Egyptian classics.

9/8 is common in American Caberet.

In this area, you have to let the band know if you don't want one.

And with every single band, you talk before you dance, and then pray!

Originally Posted by kina

9/8 is common in American Caberet.

In this area, you have to let the band know if you don't want one.

And with every single band, you talk before you dance, and then pray!

That is true. What I was getting at is that it is normal for an "exit song" to be played after the drum solo, which is normally the finale.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Thanks HubicRuzz.

Now, I am going to have the chance to perform with a different live band, that someone told me is a bit more "Arabic" in style. She said there wouldn't be any long slow rhumbas, which means I don't have to start with a veil wrap. I hope they know some Egyptian classics.

Ok, let me try and give the crash course on live music. I'm generally talking about Arabic nightclubs like Lebanese, Egpytian etc. I wasn't sure if what we do in Sydney was unique but talking with Issam Houshan of BDSS I think it's the same over in the US as well. Even the dancer and drummer signals are the same.

In general a 20 min show consists of

*Entrance - A song with malfouf. This is optional. Sometimes a show can start on the next step
*No props peice - Arabic standard like Zeil Howa, normally upbeat
*Cane dance - Egyptian Saidi or Lebanese Dabke depending on the audience
*Taqsim - veil or sword
*Drum Solo - Good to use well know solo's like Bassem Yasbeck's Amani solo [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIhemk2WOqI]YouTube - Doumbek Bellydancing Solo Esther[/ame] . Issam recommends the Hagala solo which is also well known.
*Finale - Malfouf song

Talk to the band leader beforehand and run through the show with them so there are no suprises.

Normal signals a dancer uses to communicate with the band leader on stage, normally the drummer, are

*stop/wrap up - closed fist
*softer - rubbing your thumb, index and middle fingers like the money signal
*Drum roll for shimmy - shake your hand
*repeat - with your index finger pointed up, move it in a circular "loop" motion

These signals can be done with you facing the audience and your hand behind your back, assuming the band leader is behind you.

There is a lot more to it, especially if you talk about two way drum solo improvisation, but I think that will be enough to get you in the right direction.

Just another footnote about that youtube clip of the Amani Solo, at about the 2 min mark, that is when it goes totally improvised from the drumming side.

It's not the best video to show dancer signals but when the rhythm changes from Saidi to Fellahi, just a few moments before the change the dancer stops dancing to the current Saidi rhythm and into the Fellahi. The drummer sees that and does the drum call for the rhythm change before going into Fellahi.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

I think it's the same over in the US as well. Even the dancer and drummer signals are the same.

Just a quick response to this. Actually, no, it isn't the same in the US.

If you are working with straight up Arabic band it is very similar, however here in the US we have a very long belly dance band tradition that came up here and is fairly unique to us. It is the bands that are made up of Arabs, Armenians, Turks, Greeks, Roma, Persians, etc. all mixed together. They play a mix of dance music from all over the Middle East, and they have a belly dance show structure that is unique as well. A tradition that has been built up in almost the last 100 years here in the US in ethnic nightclubs. It's glory days were in the 60s and 70s and a little bit into the 80s. It's called American Cabaret (am-cab) or one of my teachers calls it Vintage Oriental (I like that better). It isn't the same as the BDSS style, which are new American hybrids, it is it's own unique monster.


Anyway, that was the style of band our greenie was first working with, hence the 9/8 being the last piece before the finale. But don't worry, all your advice is valid and helpful because she will also be working with more traditional Arabic bands that work more in the style you are familiar with.