Thread: How would you establish quality dancers and teachers ?

Re thread: your thoughts on these you tube instructionals

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

... I am perplexed by the boom of beginners teaching classes, and Six Week Wonders pursuing professional careers.
...
You NEVER see 17-year-olds in teaching ballet, hula, or Argentine tango after a year of lessons, or performing it on YouTube in their underwear.
...
Lisa

... this is a situation of belly dance where I come from. Few Six Weeks Wonders went pro, and built a wall around themselves made of complete amateurs who teach beginner courses, so that the mentioned SWW appear as real pros.
All together formed a community, not leaving much space for others to get in.
Now, their new game is to run down many well known real professional dancers, like Dina, and some other dancers and master teachers.
How do we go about reversing this against the SWW group ?

(RE the second part of the quote: unfortunately this is happening with other dance forms like hula, samba, and tango there, since that is a small place, far from America and any dance is getting popular, so especially amateurs look for ways how to cash on any opportunity.)

It's a profoundly disheartening situation to be in, when you feel as though you are outnumbered by Suzie Nippletassels and her gang. The frustration is compounded, of course, by the pretense of "sisterhood" of the dance: it's OK to ***** amongst buddies about the sketchier goings-on in your community, but if you dare to privately call the offenders out on their business practices, others will brand you as a sh*t-talker.

I can't say that my community is entirely six-week wonders, as that's not fair to the many professionals around here who truly work hard, charge fair rates, and have paid their dues - but let's just say there have been enough undercutters and trigger-happy beginners to noticeably disrupt the balance and, yes, the payscale. It's gotten increasingly dramatic and increasingly difficult to get a gig that pays more than $150 anymore.

I'd say the best M.O. is to counter their crap with class and skill. Go out and take as many workshops and classes as your budget and schedule allow. Upgrade your wardrobe to include the most exquisite costumes. Be professional, well-groomed, educated, and conduct yourself with intelligence. Be the polar opposite of Suzy Nippletassels and Nancy No-Pants, and your audiences *will* notice the difference.

Not sure where I stand on calling the offenders out. There are one or two that I'd love to "educate" about the going rate and proper costuming, with tact of course, but I'm afraid that'll come back to bite me. Any thoughts on this?

~Lisa

[

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

It's a profoundly disheartening situation to be in, ...

... others will brand you as a sh*t-talker.

Be professional, well-groomed, educated, and conduct yourself with intelligence. Be the polar opposite of Suzy Nippletassels and Nancy No-Pants, and your audiences *will* notice the difference.

but I'm afraid that'll come back to bite me. Any thoughts on this?

~Lisa

Yes, it is,...

...yes, they would.

Yes, I am. The audience did not help, since influenced by sww, they talk nasty about anybody else. One of the pro (I mean real pro) teachers has been pushed aside by the sww and their wall of block-h**ds already.

My problem is: I want to invite a well known master teacher from Egypt hoping her workshop might reconcile the situation little bit. The response I am getting is nasty again: mean e-mails, phonecalls, internet postings. I know their motivation is a plain jealousy, and they want to keep their jobs, so they want to prevent anybody else to show any better.
How can anybody talk so wrong about pros who danced and taught it all and succesfully, all over the world ? I understand they want to disrupt my bussiness but they will also cause much disregard to professionalism.

What I did is this: I set up a discussion board and asked to post their comments there. Suddenly, there are 0 (in words: zero) remarks.

(You are right, the back bite is always hanging in the air.)

this is a bit of a problem in Asia (with Asians ... I'm not talking about expats here) where students NEVER question teachers (it's disrespectful to even think your teacher might be wrong) and it is assumed your teacher knows everything. This is a cultural issue. Following from this, I have never seen students and teachers sharing a room with a Master instructor (which I tihnk is really STUPID - why would anyone pass up a chance to study with a Master? And especially an Egyptian Master?) I've grown up understanding that there is so much to learn in the world that no one can ever possibly know it all - and I am comfortable with the fact that I will always be a student, regardless of my "level". I pity those with smaller minds (like your SWW) because they will never grow as an Artist (which is probably not one of their goals anyway).

What to do about SWW? Publically calling them out, whilst perhaps making you feel better, would probably just result in an even nastier response from the SWW, their followers and onlookers (who have no idea about the situation and will probably see YOU as being the jealous one). From my experience, eventually people will see the SWW for what they are, and the SWW will realise they have to lift their game. Try not to get discouraged and just keep on with your business as best you can. The hardest part is biting your tongue.

Originally Posted by azhaar

... it is assumed your teacher knows everything. This is a cultural issue. Following from this, I have never seen students and teachers sharing a room with a Master instructor (which I tihnk is really STUPID - why would anyone pass up a chance to study with a Master? And especially an Egyptian Master?) ...


I pity those with smaller minds (like your SWW) because they will never grow as an Artist (which is probably not one of their goals anyway).

What to do about SWW? Publically calling them out, whilst perhaps making you feel better, would probably just result in an even nastier response from the SWW, their followers and onlookers (who have no idea about the situation and will probably see YOU as being the jealous one). From my experience, eventually people will see the SWW for what they are, and the SWW will realise they have to lift their game. Try not to get discouraged and just keep on with your business as best you can. The hardest part is biting your tongue.

You are right about Asians, although this applies to the direct teachers, not other instructors or master teachers invited over to teach there, is that right ?
(I have experienced a workshop student [studio owner and teacher herself] directly approaching very famous Egyptian master teacher 20 minutes into her workshop with a complaint that the choreo did not match the music. It was strange since I feel nothing like that would happen between this student and her Japanese teacher, organizer of the workshop.)

Maybe there is similar approach of my sww, to doubt everything outside of their group, even famous master teachers (which is stupid, really), and to prize everything they do.
Other reason of their blackhearted activity is that they want to cause me to start price cutting due to many complaints about my activity. I wish all bellydancers are happy, and not resistant as happen to be here. If somebody wants to learn, they go and learn happily from an authority, whoever the sponsor is. So sww here do not want to learn, and it is really their problem.

Might be there is a lack of understanding in bellydance public (students, supporters, onlookers) what a difference could be to study with a famous master teacher and a local instructor. Oh, let`s talk about this ! ...in a separate thread probably.

Not to forget fo comment on middle part of the quote: "my" sww have already established themselver here as Artists.

Thank you for your encouragement Azhaar, I will not call them out, I have different aims in my life. My baby girl is due in May... ..g.:

Originally Posted by Michaela

Not to forget fo comment on middle part of the quote: "my" sww have already established themselver here as Artists.

Thank you for your encouragement Azhaar, I will not call them out, I have different aims in my life. My baby girl is due in May... ..g.:

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! ..g.: ..g.: Of course this is MUCH more important than the stupid actions of those SWW ...

And as I said before, the SWW may strut around now believing themselves to be Artists but eventually THEIR students will learn what they truly are (all they have to do is open their eyes to the Internet) and move on.

May I ask where in the world you are located?

The workshop story is from Japan where I live most of the time.
My nationality is Czech. So are my SWW.

A couple of years ago, I received an e-mail from a young woman who was part of a perfromance group from one of the local Universities. She, at the time she contacted me, hadn't been allowed to perfom as she didn't have any ME back ground or training besides what she was getting from the group. The leader was a young woman who was of ME decent who had also never had any formal training but was 'of the blood' so she was the leader.

The point of the e-mail was the writers desire to find classes so that she might advance in the group.

I sent her a list of teachers, workshops and resources. MECDA, Shira.net, IAMED, etc. She was thrilled!

When she took the list to her group, she was told that I was a posuer. That I obviously knew nothing about ME dance and that all I was trying to do was sell something. That the group was the only authentic group and knowledge base and that anyone else hadn't a clue and would lead them down the wrong path!

The writer wrote me and expressed her disappointment with the group. HEr feeling was that she would never be allowed to dance and that the posuer was the head of the group. She was sadly disillusioned and left the group inorder to find better teachers and perfromance ops.

I share this story for two reasons: one, it happens everywhere, and 2, if you can get one person to understand that there is something better and greater out there, maybe there can be a trickle down effect and sooner or later, the SWW will be put out of business.

{{{HUGS}}}

PS: My Mom is Czech. It's a beautiful country!

Originally Posted by Kirabellydancer

Re: Dealing with dancers who sabotage others ... - advice needed

... influences others to not attend workshops because they will learn the best from her.
...
Seriously, there is a semi-famous dancer in a neighboring city 2 hours away. None of this dancers group will attend a workshop or show she host. They also boycotted a workshop my friend held with a semi-famous dancer. This dancer lived in Egypt for 4 years. This was embarrasing to the communitee. The dancer of the workshop was aware of the boycott and offered her condolences to the communitee.

So how do you deal with a dancer/instructor that holds so much control in sabotaging your performance and the communitee?

Originally Posted by Kirabellydancer

... This from a dancer/instructor that boycotts semi-famous dancers show and workshops, who is not on any video or has posted a video of her performance on the internet, but makes fun of famous dancers calling them crap, while she attempts to pass herself off as the Queen of Bellydance to new students.
...

Hehehe, if she is the Queen of Bellydance she should dance in 5* Cairo, no ? Not in local community, huh ?

Just found this thread from last December. This is a similar situation maybe ?
I understand somebody boycotts me but when makes fun of famous dancer *copied from the qoute above* - this is where I miss a point.
Actually, I thought the problem might be with a Caucasian girl`s pride (rahter then confidence) in their own culture over Arab culture ? Like they want to say: we don`t need to learn from dancers who danced in Arab world because we surely know better then them. This is really st*pid and sad idea on the verge of racism.

Kirabellydancer, are you there ? Can you hear us ? Is there any development in your case ?

Hi, Tahira!

Nice to meet you again!

I see we talk about similar issues.

I outrule a racist issues, actually. It might be just me, me, me, and me, because I dare to organize any event.
I am no competition to anybody here, I just have one event. And here it comes back to the loop: why disrespect to big names ?,f::

Chances are that they are disrespecting a big name becaue 1) they have no idea who the big name is, and 2) they are afraid that if their folowers go to take class / see the big name perform, the will discover that the leader is not all she has advertised herself to be!

Morocco tells the story of the first dancer she saw. I'll try to do it justice.
Morocco went with her teacher and saw a dancer who she thought was fabo! Wanted to be just like her. Worked for a year in class, at clubs, studying. Went back to see her inspiration and and was very disappointed. Morocco asked her teacher: when did she become so bad? her teacher responded: She was always bad. You have just become better.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Chances are that they are disrespecting a big name becaue 1) they have no idea who the big name is, and 2) they are afraid that if their folowers go to take class / see the big name perform, the will discover that the leader is not all she has advertised herself to be!

Morocco tells the story of the first dancer she saw. I'll try to do it justice.
Morocco went with her teacher and saw a dancer who she thought was fabo! Wanted to be just like her. Worked for a year in class, at clubs, studying. Went back to see her inspiration and and was very disappointed. Morocco asked her teacher: when did she become so bad? her teacher responded: She was always bad. You have just become better.

{{{HUGS}}}

I love that story!! I remember Aunt Rocky telling it at boot camp a few years back.
I feel bad for what you are going through, but yes, it's in many communities, people who think they have the right to "own" the community, and everyone should answer to them and their decision of what's "best" for the community, that is a dictatorship, and it's simply crap!!! What they think is best is usually whatever feeds their ego, and their pocketbook, and has little to do with preserving and teaching the art!!

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Chances are that they are disrespecting a big name becaue 1) they have no idea who the big name is, and 2) they are afraid that if their folowers go to take class / see the big name perform, the will discover that the leader is not all she has advertised herself to be!

{{{HUGS}}}

I send a promotional e-mail with teacher`s short bio and ws invitation, and the teacher is on internet, so everybody can find out. Locals probably don`t believe such well known teacher would bother to come over here, but anyway they publish nonsense gossip and lies on internet.
Tahira`s No.2) - This is exactly the reason of resistance/boycott, and gossiping I feel.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Morocco tells the story of the first dancer she saw. I'll try to do it justice.
Morocco went with her teacher and saw a dancer who she thought was fabo! Wanted to be just like her. Worked for a year in class, at clubs, studying. Went back to see her inspiration and and was very disappointed. Morocco asked her teacher: when did she become so bad? her teacher responded: She was always bad. You have just become better.

{{{HUGS}}}

Luv the story completely !
How true, that individual`s view changes.

Aradia: Thank you for your kind support dear .
You are right, it is not happening only here.

How I envy Bhuzzers from Belgium, they seem to go along well, and meet up at workshops (I read a thread about Bozenka`s ws there).

*goes slightly off topic*
Hey, Tahiradancer, I have heard that Bozenka`s mother`s Czech, too! May be we still have some chance to become bdss ! !

Michaela - We've always known that the most beautiful women in the world are Czech. Although the Brazillians come a close second. ;)

As for BDSS. I think I am a little too old and, er. fluffy, for Miles! But if you are interested, go for it, by all means! I tcould be an exciting adventure!

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Michaela - We've always known that the most beautiful women in the world are Czech. Although the Brazillians come a close second. ;)

As for BDSS. I think I am a little too old and, er. fluffy, for Miles! But if you are interested, go for it, by all means! I tcould be an exciting adventure!

{{{HUGS}}}

I am too short I guess. ,f::

Originally Posted by Michaela

How I envy Bhuzzers from Belgium, they seem to go along well, and meet up at workshops (I read a thread about Bozenka`s ws there).

Hi Michaela,

Unfortunately not all bellydancers in Belgium get along,
And we do have our share of six-week-wonders and divas as well ..c::

But.. I am already very VERY very happy that there are some good dancers / teachers in my home country at the moment who are just as in love with quality bellydance as I am share their knowledge generously with their students ..g.: try to avoid politics .p:: and, you know, just focus on DANCING and learning how to do that ..l;,

But all the Brits are one happy fluffy sisterhood ...that so gals ?,r:;

Hi Khalida, Liza,

it`s nice to meet you.

I have one more question: why so many hobbyists and dancers in Europe seem to prefer learning bellydance and also Egyptian Raqs Sharqi from US teachers when the original authentic Raqs`s is waiting `round the corner` in Egypt or even hiding around Europe ?

This also might be another aspect of original problem in this thread.

Put in other words :
Is there too little awareness that it is better to learn authentic dance form with a teacher who has an authentic experience ?

:cg: X :cr: = ???


*I mean no offence to US dancers, there are some fabulous dancers and teachers.

You mean belly dance comes from the Middle East?

*ducks*

Reality is that many relly don't know who is who in Belly dance if they aren't advertised. Americans know how to market themselves. There are many wonderful ME based dancers who don't. So if you are marketing someone who is a "native" you may have less of a response because no one has heard of them.

{{{HUGS}}

Originally Posted by Michaela

why so many hobbyists and dancers in Europe seem to prefer learning bellydance and also Egyptian Raqs Sharqi from US teachers when the original authentic Raqs`s is waiting `round the corner` in Egypt or even hiding around Europe ?

I think it's because US teachers organize and present facts in a way that is compatible with the way that Europeans are accustomed to learning new material. There's a lot of verbalizing - explaining how to do moves, explaining posture, explaining what the music is doing, etc. In contrast, the overwhelming majority of Egyptian teachers simply do "follow the bouncing butt". Mahmoud Reda told me that when he started Reda Troupe back in 1959, part of what he needed to do was to learn how to teach dance. There was no established system of dance pedagogy for traditional Egyptian dance, only for ballet. So he had to create his own.

Another factor is that the bulk of people teaching dance in Egypt today come from a folk troupe background, and therefore do a lot of intricate stuff with footwork, weight changes, spins, arabesques, ballet-esque arms, etc. I remember my first experience in one of Aida Nour's classes, which was heavily influenced by folk troupe style of dance with lots of half-turns, direction changes, and intricate footwork - I found myself thinking that wasn't the style of dance I was looking for. I felt similarly about Randa Kamel's style of dance, which is heavily ballet-based. For those people like me who prefer the aesthetic of raqs sharqi from the 1980's or earlier, most of today's Egyptian dancers aren't the style of dance they're looking for.

Thank you Tahira and Shira.

Maybe it is a marketing problem. Since I focus on oriental style i prefer to learn from teachers w. ME experience. Their dance comes from tradition, went through certain development (ballet, etc.), and is adequate to the culture.

The problem might be that non-ME students feel they do not need or do not want to understand ME aesthetics. They might feel intimidated when they are requested to understand ME songs lyrics, feelings, way of life etc.
They might want use their own imagination/fantasy to interpret the music and songs. Then, raqs sharqi is slowly but steadily shifted from ME sensitivity to Western expression.

More down to Earth problem might be that Cz. travelling to Egypt don`t want to spend much money on entertainment, so they get to see only average and bellow dancers, and don`t see any reason why Egyptian belly dance is so famous. What is more, when students go to holiday in Egypt, they go with their teacher and learn from her as they have stayed at home.