Thread: Spinoff-unasked for critique or teacher guidance?

Varuza, come back! Its great to get other opinons and insights into things.
I dont think anyone intended to bully or berate, their are some strong personalities on Bhuz and sometimes the hammer just keeps hitting the nail even after its driven into the wall.

Originally Posted by Varuza

I shouldn't have posted anything. I did not mean to make a fool out of myself. I should have just kept reading and not tried to express an opinion here, because I either don't know enough about bellydance or I can't explain my thoughts in a way that people will understand.

Veruza, please don't bow out. You've made valid points earlier in this thread with respect to the craft of teaching - ie, it's best to correct someone BEFORE the performance, it's best to explain WHY something is incorrect rather than just saying "that's wrong", and when the issue is a student's artistic choices talking to them about how what they meant to say might not be what the audience "heard".

I think the only thing we disagreed on was your position that belly dance is almost all about artistic choice, while I believe that there is a "grammatical" foundation of the dance which does have rules for what is correct and what not. But there are a lot of things we agreed on - things that were worth bringing up.

Okay - I'll try one more time...

Yes, I think if someone intends to do one thing and they do something else instead: it's wrong.

But the problem I see here is that the teacher, strong, beautiful, and intelligent though she may be, cannot see into the student's head and know what the student is intending. That's why it seems to make more sense to me to say: You're doing *x*. Is that what you intend to do? For example, saying: "You're doing a completely Egyptian dance, with no other elements. Why are you using Turkish music?" What if the student's goal was to show that Egyptian dance looks good with Turkish music? That's different than indigostars wanting to do a pure Egyptian dance, where the Turkish music *would* be inappropriate. The teacher cannot know these things without asking, and to simply say, "You can't use Turkish music" would not be helpful to the student whose goal is to combine the two.

I guess my thought on this is that if you're not willing to allow your students to make these kinds of choices because they're not advanced enough to do so, then it makes more sense to do what other dance disciplines do and have the *teacher* make all the choices: choreography, music, and costumes. I did ballet, tap, and jazz for years in high school, and never once did a student get to make those choices. If you are letting them do it, then you need to respect that their choices are now theirs and not yours.

I do believe there is a grammar in belly dance, but I think (and perhaps wrongly, since I'm just beginning) that it is in the moves. People do belly dance to modern American music. It's still belly dance, right? Maybe not a particular style of belly dance, but still belly dance (although I've read that youtube videos of belly dance are filled with comments saying "That's not belly dance!). To me, if it's grammar, it means, that aside from a few exceptions (or in English, lots of them), that rule applies across the board. If it only applies to a particular circumstance (religious music), I don't think it can be considered grammar.

Finally, to sum up: it makes more sense to me to focus on *what* the problem is (to the teacher) than whether it is "right" or "wrong". Because then, they can make the choice they want to make. If you don't want them to make any choices, then decide everything for them from the beginning. Don't give them an illusion of choice and then take it away.

Originally Posted by Varuza

I guess my thought on this is that if you're not willing to allow your students to make these kinds of choices because they're not advanced enough to do so, then it makes more sense to do what other dance disciplines do and have the *teacher* make all the choices: choreography, music, and costumes. I did ballet, tap, and jazz for years in high school, and never once did a student get to make those choices. If you are letting them do it, then you need to respect that their choices are now theirs and not yours.

Hmmm, very good point! Yes, I see what you're saying here!

Originally Posted by Varuza

People do belly dance to modern American music. It's still belly dance, right? Maybe not a particular style of belly dance, but still belly dance (although I've read that youtube videos of belly dance are filled with comments saying "That's not belly dance!).

I had to add my two cents' worth on this one. Belly dance is more than just a set of movements. The cultural origins/context of belly dance have imbued cultural meaning to this dance. Just as flamenco is more than stomping one's feet, belly dance is a lot more than shimmying. Because this is essentially a dance with very specific cultural origins, then it behooves a student to learn the particulars of the cultural context in addition to just the movements. In other words, yep, there is a "grammar" - a cultural grammar.

This is of course an ongoing source of discussion (and Varuza once you start cruising around Bhuz you'll find a bunch of threads on what is or isn't belly dance...it's kind of a heated debate...understatement of the year).

Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I what is or isn't belly dance...it's kind of a heated debate...understatement of the year).

Nisaa

..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

Yes. There are avid fusionistas, Belly Police, and everyone in between.

Is it still Hula if you do it country/western music and wear a Flamenco dress? Is it still African dance if you do it to Beethoven and wear overalls? Is it still Native American dance if you do it to heavy metal wearing a tutu?

*ponder ponder*
*brain explodes*

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

This is of course an ongoing source of discussion (and Varuza once you start cruising around Bhuz you'll find a bunch of threads on what is or isn't belly dance...it's kind of a heated debate...understatement of the year).

Nisaa

Yes, I figured that, which is why I put that part as a question rather than a statement. I was guessing that it was probably like the SCA: you have people who wear fairy wings and completely modern outfits and people who make their own shoes and do NOTHING out of the period of their persona, perhaps as strictly defined as just a couple years. And a lot of heated debate.

I'm a little weird, in that I generally tend to be on the permissive side for other people, but strict with myself.

I think I understand this a little better. It seems that what you're saying is that there are certain cultural issues that are extreme enough that if they do them, even if the moves are the same, that it isn't belly dance. So, if someone were to do them, they would possibly still be a great dancer, but no longer a "belly dancer". (In which case, if I knew it and was a teacher - unlikely to be sure, at least for a long time - I'd tell them, "If you do that, it's not belly dance anymore.")

Originally Posted by Varuza

It seems that what you're saying is that there are certain cultural issues that are extreme enough that if they do them, even if the moves are the same, that it isn't belly dance. So, if someone were to do them, they would possibly still be a great dancer, but no longer a "belly dancer".

Yep, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. But bear in mind I'm a stodgy traditionalist!

But let me add that the same thing goes for other ME dance styles, not just belly dance. A student who claims to be doing sai'idi dance but who chooses Algerian rai music and wears a khaleegy thobe is NOT doing sai'idi dance. If a dancer does this sort of thing with intent, she can call it world fusion, but she shouldn't call it sai'idi, or Algerian, or khaleegy. It's important for students to learn the fundamentals before they go about creating these sort of dance mash-ups.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I had to add my two cents' worth on this one. Belly dance is more than just a set of movements. The cultural origins/context of belly dance have imbued cultural meaning to this dance. Just as flamenco is more than stomping one's feet, belly dance is a lot more than shimmying. Because this is essentially a dance with very specific cultural origins, then it behooves a student to learn the particulars of the cultural context in addition to just the movements. In other words, yep, there is a "grammar" - a cultural grammar.

I agree with Nisaa, and to take the analogy a level further (borrowing from Shems's article on the subject), there are words, phrases, sentences, and poetry.

Stringing words (movements) together from the oriental dance movement vocabulary does not guarantee you'll get a sentence, or even a meaningful phrase. just like "le etre maison du je pas il" is not speaking French, even though all the words are French.

And to get poetry, not just sentences, requires even more nuance and pattern.

So yeah, it is possible to put on some Middle Eastern music, a bedlah costume, string some shimmies, hip drops, arm undulations, hip circles, etc. together and have something that does not even resemble belly dance in any way, because it is a random assemblage of "words".

Originally Posted by ssipes

So yeah, it is possible to put on some Middle Eastern music, a bedlah costume, string some shimmies, hip drops, arm undulations, hip circles, etc. together and have something that does not even resemble belly dance in any way, because it is a random assemblage of "words".

Hey! I'm right here, I can hear you talkin' 'bout me, ya know. ..l;,

(actually this is really well-stated, I love it. Someday I hope to become nuanced enough to write a poem with my dance.)