the Suhaila catagory? Related to the styles thread

[shems]

So while I was getting feedback on my styles primer, somebody mentioned Suhaila Salimpour to me saying she's a very influential and famous contemporary figure in American Belly Dance and that she should be mentioned. But the question is where? She isn't Egyptian style, certainly not Lebanese and she isn't really Vintage Oriental either, at least she hasn't stuck as close to that style as Ansuya has (even though Ansuya also has her innovations). She does seem to keep to the spirit of the category, a sort of fusion of middle eastern styles and western innovation, but it feel stranges to call what she does vintage.

Maybe it's time for a new category? Or an updated descriptor? I like "Vintage Oriental" which is what Artemis calls the early American phenomenon of belly dance (Am-Cab never seemed quite right), perhaps "Modern Oriental"? Sort of how we generally update "Golden Age Egyptian" to "Modern Egyptian" (Although it always leaves me with the question of the people in between - when does modern start? I feel like an art historian). How do we define these movements? And if we have "Modern Oriental" what other dancers besides Suhaila really belong there? Bellyqueen? - Maybe Jillina really belongs here and not under Egyptian?


What do y'all think?

[*Shira*]

I would describe Suhaila, Bellyqueen, and Jillina as all being dancers whose extensive Western dance background (jazz, ballet, etc.) strongly influences their style. I see Suhaila as a jazz dancer who has added some belly dance influence to her jazz, but is still predominantly jazz. (Ditto Dalia Carella, based on a workshop I had with her last weekend.)

[Lauren_]

I also see Suhaila as a jazz-fusion dancer. I'd put her in the fusion category.

Jillina, the BDSS, and non-ethnic but not-quite-fusion dancers are harder to place, for me!

[nisaasaintlouis]

And then Suhaila went to the Middle East and performed in clubs for a decade.

Really? She performed overseas for 10 years? (I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically.) Or am I misunderstanding? I had never heard this before.

I ditto Lauren. Suhaila is definitely fusion. It bugs me though that repeatedly in her bio she describes what she does as ME dance - The Real Suhaila Salimpour. Yes there are elements of ME dance in what she does, but in my opinion she has fused too far to call what she does ME dance.

[anala]

Dalia Carella seems to defy categorization as well. She is never the same. A workshop with very versitile instructors may well lead dancers to say she is such and such, but it is a snapshot in time, and the next class may have by a totally different flavor. But then...she was my first "biggie" and I took 3 days with her 5 years ago in Taos and she didnt let us sit down except to scarf food. I felt sorry for the vendors..no one wandered off to shop...

[bananarchy]

Really? She performed overseas for 10 years? (I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically.) Or am I misunderstanding? I had never heard this before.

I ditto Lauren. Suhaila is definitely fusion. It bugs me though that repeatedly in her bio she describes what she does as ME dance - The Real Suhaila Salimpour. Yes there are elements of ME dance in what she does, but in my opinion she has fused too far to call what she does ME dance.

You know what, I might be wrong about that. I know she danced in Lebanon, but perhaps it was not as long as that. I might be confusing the stories/chronology. I know she traveled in the ME and danced in the ME, but maybe it wasn't all at one time, and maybe it does or does not add up to 10 years. Sorry to spread misinformation! I'll check my sources next time.

[bananarchy]

Kajira interviewed Suhaila in 1996. She shares some of her thoughts on belly dance, style, etc. that might be of interest:

Suhaila's Interview

[Lauren_]

Dalia Carella also seems like a fusion dancer to me, although it sounds like she's mixed it up more over the years. The one time I saw her live, I thought of her as modern dance fusion.

I know Suhaila has studied other dance forms, but she consistently performs jazz fusion, to my eye. That's not a bad thing, LOVE Suhaila. But didn't SHE say, after last years' Ahlan Wa Sahlan festival, that she might be interested in studying & performing more traditional ME dance in the future? So she knows she's fusion, right? It's not meant to be an insult, just a statement.

(and I also had the idea that Lebanon was more of a visit for her than a living/working arrangement? But I could be wrong.)

[Athallia]

Dalia performs many styles of belly dance. If you saw her perform recently is likely that it was Modern fusion (or Contemporary Belly Dance as she calls it). She also performs Turkish-American (she "grew up" in the NYC dance scene when that was the norm), Turkish Rom, Egyptian Oriental (though I haven't seen her do that style lately), all sorts of modern and ethnic fusions all together and of course the styles she created Dunyavi Gypsy/Rom and El Mundo.

So I think it's be better as putting her down as doing all styles. Or better yet, Dalia doesn't believe in style as a matter of fact she really hates it how so many dancers lately seem to be cookie-cutter versions of each other and of famous dancers.

As for Suhaila, her "Suhaila Solo" DVD is very Egyptian to my eye - live Egyptian music, lots of layers, emoting and so on. Of course, she's not gonna stop being Suhaila and using her glute-based technique just because she's doing what would be considered Egyptian style.

[ErikaOH]

Suhaila is most definitely Egyptian style...well...and Jazz...and Fusion, etc. Whatever her mood, and whatever music moves her at the moment, that's what she is. And she absolutely did dance and toured overseas in Egypt for many years in her earlier days. She has her own Arabic band, and Athallia you're spot on! - if you check out her "Suhaila Solo" dvd, it's most definitely Egyptian in style. "Unveiled" is another of her solo dvd's that should not be overlooked.

One of the wonderful things about Suhaila is that she can - and does - dance so many different styles. And as far as her technique goes - it can be applied to any style of belly dance whether Egyptian, Hip-Hop or Jazz Fusion, Tribal, or whatever.

[shems]

Sooo,

Contemporary Belly Dance?

Oriental Fusion? (I can't exactly put her in the Tribal Fusion category)

Modern Oriental Dance?

Contemporary Oriental Dance?

Contemporary Oriental Fusion?

Any votes on what we should call the Suhaila, Dahlia Carella, BDSS, Bellyqueen, etc, phenomena of current American trends in belly dance? I think we should name it.

I'm actually kind of digging Contemporary Oriental Fusion - that seems to kind of capture it for me...what do you all think?

[Reinaa]

I like Contempory Oriental Fusion! ;}

[shems]

I like Contempory Oriental Fusion! ;}

I'm going for it and adding the category to my styles primer. I'll post a new thread too to encourage people to use this term.

..g.:

[bintbeled]

I like Contempory Oriental Fusion! ;}

Me too! ..g.:

[shems]

I've decided on Contemporary Oriental Style Dance, since it was mentioned to me that the word fusion might cause confusion with tribal fusion. Also I was watching the video clips as I was putting together a playlist and I still some of the fusion is really quite subtle a lot of the time, so I think this will still get across the same general idea.

[Lauren_]

I don't have a better suggestion, Shems, but I wonder if calling it "contemporary' will confuse people into thinking that Randa, Dina, Orit et al are not 'contemporary?' I already hear tribal fusion dancers referring to Egyptian/Arabic styles as 'old school.' ,r:;

But since I have no constructive suggestions to offer, I guess I should just keep my mouth shut. ,f::

"Westernized Oriental" comes to mind, but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms, I'm afraid. (like how 'westernized' is Randa?)

I call myself "American Mongrel" but I wouldn't put that title on others.

[shems]

I don't have a better suggestion, Shems, but I wonder if calling it "contemporary' will confuse people into thinking that Randa, Dina, Orit et al are not 'contemporary?' I already hear tribal fusion dancers referring to Egyptian/Arabic styles as 'old school.' ,r:;

But since I have no constructive suggestions to offer, I guess I should just keep my mouth shut. ,f::

"Westernized Oriental" comes to mind, but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms, I'm afraid. (like how 'westernized' is Randa?)

I call myself "American Mongrel" but I wouldn't put that title on others.

Randa, Dina, Orit are "Modern Egyptian Style" according to my little styles primer. I know it's just a matter of semantics, but if a bunch of people just start to use a certain terminology, then we can at least communicate about things. (I considered Contemporary American Oriental, but non-American seem to be in a similar vein...it's all so confusing)

Really, I just want my students to be able to get an idea of what they are seeing when they see a belly dancer and talk about it semi-intelligently. Anyway, I'll try it out for a bit and see if it fits.

[Suzana]

I'm happy you're doing this, Shems. It's a great discussion.

For me there's a (fuzzy) line between the Suhaila/Bellyqueen category and the Jillina/Aziza category. I'm trying out the Contemporary Oriental Fusion idea for the former, where the weight seems to be more on the jazz/modern side, and I like it. For me the latter (and perhaps also Amar Gamal when she's doing solo Oriental) fit better into the Modern Egyptian group with Orit and company, who after all have jazz/ballet/modern influences themselves despite what feels to me like a closer connection to the Arabic roots of the dance than I perceive in the COF group. But the line really is fuzzy, of course -- you can't objectively quantify the percentages of this influence and that influence and come up with a mathematical formula to put every dancer in a category that everyone will agree on. These are just my thoughts.

A while back we kicked around the term "American Egyptian" for the Jillina/Aziza category: those who are working in an "Egyptianesque" style and musical interpretation and have roots in Egyptian technique but don't take a purist approach, incorporating elements of Western dance forms, maybe bigger theatrical gestures, maybe more extensive veilwork, etc. I'm not suggesting you add another category (and I don't think we're all American), but I'm inclined to think those dancers still fit best under "Modern Egyptian," broadly construed. Does that make sense?

ETA: I should clarify that I'm thinking of Jillina's solo work when I describe her as Modern Egyptian. I've seen her do some incredibly soulful, subtle dancing that had a roomful of Arabs on their feet and captured the essence of the music in a very "eastern" way, and that response wasn't diminished at all by the inclusion of judicious amounts of bouncy, jazzy, theatrical stuff. It's a question of proportion. I'd put BDSS and Sahlala as a whole -- the big flashy production numbers especially -- under Contemporary Oriental Fusion.

[Lauren_]

I see your point. Makes sense. I already posted on the other thread, though. D'oh.

[Suzana]

See whose point -- my point? I just re-posted this over on the other thread, in case you want to see it over there, too.

(Sorry to be redundant, but I thought this thread had gone to bed and didn't want to waste all that typing.)

[Lauren_]

LOL! Sorry, I should take the time to quote the post I'm replying to.

I meant Shems (hey, it's her categories, so ultimately her logic reigns).

I see your point, too. The categories are all fuzzy, and will remain so. Eventually, even putting Jillina and Aziza into a category together will fall apart, or Suhaila and Bellyqueen. And Randa is more like Virgina than Mona, while Nour out-Egyptians them all in spite of being Russian.

Because we try to put dancers in these little boxes, but only a few of us are *trying* to dance in boxes -- and then usually only to learn more about the box, not to live in it.

Most dancers, ultimately, are striving to express their own unique interpretation of the music. It's the beauty of our art form, and the most frustrating aspect. Because it's ultimately a solo form, each dancer wants her own unique shimmy, hip circle, etc. Because we don't limit our pros to those with the exact same body (like ballet, or the Radio City Rockettes) even the same moves look different on us all. We don't dance to classic choreographies, we each interact with the music on our own (through improv or through our own choreography) so there can be as many musical interpretations of a song as there are dancers.

*sigh* I love it. And I hate it.

[Lauren_]

Geez, Lauren, get sidetracked much?


All I was trying to say was yeah, it's hard to categorize.

[Suzana]

I didn't see that as you getting sidetracked. I think those are essential points to keep in mind in all of these discussions where we're trying to define terms and label things so we can talk about them from a shared perspective. Everything's a construct, in the end -- but we need constructs or there's no discussion.

[shems]

LOL! Sorry, I should take the time to quote the post I'm replying to.

I meant Shems (hey, it's her categories, so ultimately her logic reigns).

I see your point, too. The categories are all fuzzy, and will remain so. Eventually, even putting Jillina and Aziza into a category together will fall apart, or Suhaila and Bellyqueen. And Randa is more like Virgina than Mona, while Nour out-Egyptians them all in spite of being Russian.

Because we try to put dancers in these little boxes, but only a few of us are *trying* to dance in boxes -- and then usually only to learn more about the box, not to live in it.

Most dancers, ultimately, are striving to express their own unique interpretation of the music. It's the beauty of our art form, and the most frustrating aspect. Because it's ultimately a solo form, each dancer wants her own unique shimmy, hip circle, etc. Because we don't limit our pros to those with the exact same body (like ballet, or the Radio City Rockettes) even the same moves look different on us all. We don't dance to classic choreographies, we each interact with the music on our own (through improv or through our own choreography) so there can be as many musical interpretations of a song as there are dancers.

*sigh* I love it. And I hate it.

True, true - there is so much subtlety and crossover and shades of gray, so to speak, that making definitions that really fit every individual dancer is impossible.

However, I really want to give my students some kind of jumping off point and I think it's good to acknowledge that there is something distinct about the contemporary American approach to Egyptian and other styles of belly dance then that of Egyptian Egyptian dancers, even contemporary ones like Randa.

Randa despite her incorporating some western dance tradition, still is very much Egyptian to me, very heavily rhythm based, carries her energy low in her body and has the posture, carriage and expressiveness distinct to Egyptians. It's like she's added new moves and elements into what is a distinctly Egyptian base.

Jillina, Aziza, Amar Gamal can be wonderful expressive dancers respected and loved by Arabs for the way they interpret this art form, but from every performance I've seen live or on video (and I've seen several performances for each of them) solo or otherwise, there is no mistaking a distinct difference, that western dance training that makes me want to create a unique category for them. I think most of them had a western dance training base and built Egyptian movement on top of that. Now that could be considered a subtle difference, but to me it seems like a very real one. One that my eyes see.

I think I'll just put a little explanation that this is my own made up category - to sort of represent that interpretation that seems unique to our current time outside of the Middle East, particularly present in America.

[Lauren_]

I think you're doing a tremendous job with a tough task. It's interesting stuff to think about.

When this comes up, and my students get frustrated with the notion that 'the only way to understand it is to watch a LOT of dancing' I always tell them this: Imagine that you're trying to explain the difference between country, pop, and rock to someone who's never heard/seen any of them. What would you say? "Well, they all have guitars and drums, but sometimes country can have harmonica -- but not always -- and...."

And how many artists wouldn't fit into whatever descriptions you might come up with?

(when yours is done, can we all just piggyback on your work?)

[Suzana]

I think most of them had a western dance training base and built Egyptian movement on top of that.

I see that, too, and I understand that it's important. You're right, of course. Just wanted to bring up a different way of thinking about where to draw the line.

[turkishdancer]

Then what would you call Mahmoud Reda, the legendary Teachers' Teacher with his Fred Astaire and ballet and jazz feetwork and combinations...
In my opinion Suhaila is definetely has everything. She can do what they call "Egyptian Style", "American Cabaret", "Tribal", "Fusion" and more...etc.

[bellydancewear]

Good point Dilek! I love you girl!! I always thought that myself. I have taken from Mahmoud Reda at least 3 times in my life and for me I don't care for his choreographies because they have so much ballet and traveling steps and turns. I only forced myself to take from him because everyone says you should and that he is the master of Egyptian style dance. Perhaps the mater of Egyptian stage-folkloric style. But having gone to Egypt as much as I have and taken from so many people there I tend to prefer the more raw and for me authentic Egyptian style. I like Lubna and Tito's shaaby style the best. And all forms of Saiidi. What is often considered Oriental is what seems to me a ballet fusion. We ALL do fusion, and no one outside of true blooded Egyptians should ever say they do only Egyptian style, they are fooling themselves!! But back to Suhaila....she can do whatever she wants whenever she wants. I have seen her do a very classic style Oriental performance, and I have seen her do some jazz-belly dance-fusion, she is well versed and can pull out of her hat whatever she feels like at the time. And we have no business trying to "label" styles when no one I know does any pure form of Middle Eastern dance. (Although Dilek you are a true blooded Turkish dancer, but even you have dealt in other styles and have learned to fuse them and separate them, which I think is awesome!!!) Labels can be so misleading and we all see things differently. I just love when someone goes to Egypt once and comes back and teaches a workshop in "Egyptian style." Yeah right, give me a break! I only want to learn Egyptian style from true Egyptians, not from some American dancer who grew up taking ballet, jazz, modern, and hip hop, and learned a few moves to incorporate into their dance. So why label anything when it is ALL fusion on some level?