Thread: No Classical Dance Training, Feeling Discouraged

Something I've been wanting to get off my chest for a very long time.

In recent months, I've taken a ridiculous number of workshops with super prominent, star-caliber instructors. I'm improving tenfold, but of course, I'm going through an awkward case of growing pains, where every one of my insecurities and flaws feels as though it's been put under a magnifying glass and blown up 200%.

And all of my weak spots, I feel, stem from a lack of solid ballet/jazz/modern training.

My hips and torso move like liquid, I'm a master of pops and locks, and my shimmies are sensational....but my posture isn't the greatest, I can't tell a port de bras from a friggin' pas de bouree, and I still feel as though I'm two left feet. I'm noticing more emphasis on classical stylings in workshops now than ever before, and I'm feeling totally lost and, stylistically, a touch uncouthe.

Sometimes, my lack of Western training makes me feel quite pure in Arabic style. (Many critics would argue that there IS such a thing as a BDer being too Westernized). Other times, it makes me feel hopeless, as though I am at a severe disadvantage for having started so late in life and with nobody to harp on my feet, arms and carriage. Especially seeing that so many BDers, it seems, have been doing the standard ballet/jazz curriculum since they were zygotes.

I have every intention in the world of sticking it out through this rough patch, and improving all of my weak spots. Perhaps, I'll take an adult ballet class if I can carve out some time in my insane schedule.

But I'm wondering, is it possible to truly succeed in BD without classical Western training? And, to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, why must we legitimize our skill in BD by how much training in a seemingly opposite dance form we have? Do Latin ballroom dancers justify their talent vis a vis previous experience in hula? How necessary do you all rank classical training in terms of mastering Oriental dance?

I'm not sure how I feel about any of the above and would love to get tons of opinions.

Let's talk....

Lisa

I do not think western dance training is necessary for oriental dance. Can it help? Sure. So can piano lessons or marching band (in fact, I am growing to think early musical training of any kind to be more beneficial than just about anything else).

Of course, if you are *wanting* to do very jazz-influenced, westernized oriental dance ala BDSS, then sure, the western dance background probably becomes much more important.

You can train the arms, upper body lift and carriage through oriental training with oriental instructors. You don't need ballet lessons for this, although taking a ballet course might be one avenue to achieving this goal.

I agree with your Devil's advocate that we need to stop judging this dance by western criteria and training standards.

I go back and forth on this stuff, too. Fifi was such a breath of fresh air to me, style-wise. But I long for that effortless grace that comes so easily to the classically trained.

My answer so far is a compromise. I do ballet workout videos. By far my fave is the first New York City Ballet one, but I rent all the beginner ballet vids I can get my hands on through Blockbuster.com and try them out. The barre work and centering are so valuable (though all that turnout is wasted on me and I don't try too hard to emulate the lower-body stuff).

I feel like it's helping. But then, like you, I keep questioning whether it's really necessary. After all, when I fell in love with this dance, it was the shimmies & isolations that captured my attention. Yet saggy posture & arms really detract from that and leave the dancer looking amateurish. I feel torn sometimes.

Kimahri will be teaching a 'Belly up to the Barre" workshop in my studio -- ballet skills for bellydancers -- in a couple of weeks, I'm looking forward to that.

Originally Posted by ssipes

You can train the arms, upper body lift and carriage through oriental training with oriental instructors.

Some Oriental instructors. Mine didn't teach it, and I get the impression that many don't.

My observation--for doing lots of choreography, yes, classical ballet training is a huge advantage. For improv, no, not really. Having a really good feel and/or understanding of ME music seems to be a real advantage for improv.

Just my 2 cents!

I think Western dance training is helpful if you aspire to do "Egyptian folk troupe" style, such as what is taught by Mahmoud Reda, Farida Fahmy, Aida Nour, Mo Geddawi, and other folk troupe alumni.

I recently attended a workshop that was essentially a jazz choreography that contained a few token undulations and shimmies. It had been advertised as "Egyptian pop", but there was nothing Egyptian about either the music or the choreography. I felt as though my time had been wasted. If I wanted to take a jazz class, I'd sign up for a jazz class. When I go to a belly dance class, I expect to do belly dancing.

Back to your original question, I have noticed that there are things that are a standard part of Western dance pedagogy that are valuable for belly dance but rarely taught by belly dancers. These would include centering, carrying the arms in a way that doesn't throw you off balance or cast shadows on your face under stage lights, stage presence, etc. Now, an excellent belly dance teacher could also teach these skills, but my experience is that most lack either the knowledge or the pedagogy skills to teach them well.

I would say that if you don't particularly want to do a Westernized limb-oriented style with lots of traveling steps, spins, and arm flinging, then maybe you need to ask questions about what the instructor's style is like and skip those workshops that don't fit with the kind of dance you prefer to do.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

And, to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, why must we legitimize our skill in BD by how much training in a seemingly opposite dance form we have? Do Latin ballroom dancers justify their talent vis a vis previous experience in hula?

Lisa

No, but they do justify their talent vis a vis previous ballet training.

It's not that you need to be proficient in just any opposite dance form, it's the ballet that helps.

The body awareness, posture, arm and hand placement, and upper-body positioning are skills you learn in ballet and can be transferred to any dance form.

I am one of those "dancing ballet and jazz since I was a zygote" type of people. I never have to worry about my arms being sloppy, or my hands looking like claws, or my posture being slouched - these are all things that have been drilled into me from such a young age that they come naturally to me and without any thought. But they are also things that I regularly correct and drill my students on, because, as most of them do not have Western training, they need a lot of work in these areas.

I posted a blog on this a while ago (link below) and hosted a "Ballet for Bellydancers" workshop - so obviously I think this is an important thing. No, ballet is not necessary for perfecting the shimmies and the locks and all the other fun stuff that we love about bellydance. But it sure is helpful for the rest of it - your hips can be shimmying something furious but if you are hunched over and your arms are weak, you won't look polished or complete.

I tell all my students to take ballet as well. It's never to late to learn!

Right. I guess the fact that I've studied with several of the BDSS and other similar instructors probably explains all the classical stylings I've noticed.

It's odd, I took a BDSS workshop a few days ago and was kinda scratching my head the whole time, wondering where all the hip and torso work went. It was all chasses, pas du bourees and chainee turns, with a few gooey moves thrown in at a brief segment at the end. Lovely as this instructor's personal style is, it really felt sort of....well....BD-lite.

Granted, arabesques and other balletic moves make for lovely entrances in Egyptian style, I do wonder, like Lauren, how much of this the audience really picks up on. Do they really notice the what our feet are doing, or are they paying attention to whatever juicy moves our hips or chest are doing? (Do they even notice the feet much at all, with our long skirts and costumes that draw the eye to the torso?)

And to further my devil's advocate, do we bolster BD with references to classical dance to align ourselves with "higher" dance forms and thus, boost our reputation? (Kinda like "Look at us. See? We roll with the elite crowd, too.") Not saying yes or no to that theory, just throwing it out there.

Yeah. Feeling really, really torn on this. I'd personally prefer to fuse subtle elements of ballet and jazz when applicable (just as I do hula, flamenco and even the cute little leg flicks and showgirl walks of burlesque)....but I'm just skeptical of the notion that Western dance is 100% necessary to greatness in a dance form from a distant corner of the globe, a disparate movement vocabulary, and a different cultural tradition.

Not saying I dislike ballet, or knocking the classically trained by ANY means, by the way....just kind of wondering and thinking aloud on all of the above points.

Lisa

This thread has been really helpful, I've been thinking the exact same thing about whether I would benefit from some classical dance training. My footwork is pretty clumsy, and I always seem to end up with my weight on the wrong leg. My shoulders and arms can be a bit tragic too due to long days in front of a computer and a tendency for my shoulders to end up next to my ears.

I'm doing a workshop with Sabah at Raqs Britannia - "Ballet for Bellydancers". Hopefully this will help me with some of these issues!

I'm wondering about the same thing after taking workshops with some members of the BDSS. However, Aziza also incorporates ballet in her class (port de bras, anyone?) but with less stress on the feet and more on the arms and posture. I'd like to take some more ballet to get this drilled into my body, the New york city ballet dvd helps me work on it at home.

Arabic audiences often say that western bellydancers 'just spin a lot' and the more western bellydancers I see, the more it makes sense. Unless you layer your travelsteps with some kind of bellydance move, you're taking the focus away from the torso moves that are typical for ME dance and more towards floorpatterns, using the whole stage, and fancy footwork.

The point is: if you want to be a really good bellydancer and you have no intention of relocating to the ME, you need all the extra dance stuff that we like in this part of our world. To most people folkloric styles are boring. If you want to be a professional bellydancer you have to dance in a way that gets you hired. Save the fifteen minute beledi performance for audiences that appreciate it.

It's one of the things that I hate and love about belly dance. I love it that you can be a bellydancer without a background in other dance forms or classical training. But I hate it that if you want to be a really good dancer to western standards, you need that background to get there. However, if taking ballet classes is the fastest way to smooth out arm/posture issues, I'll take it.

Oooooh nice, I bet Sabah's workshop is very helpful. I'm thinking of squeezing in an adult ballet class too, at some point.

To Mekyria's point, I think there IS a middle ground between just spinning a lot and being crunchy folkloric. (I'm not a fan of either of the above.) All comes down to studying with a variety of instructors and being a sponge for as many different styles as you can pick up, and doing what's aesthetically pleasing across the board. I'm still not entirely convinced that one must immerse oneself in ballet/jazz to be marketable to Western audiences: after all, they do love the gooey hip moves and shimmies! I think polished posture and carriage are key, whether you get that from a great Oriental instructor or from a course in ballet.

I'd love to take an Aziza workshop for the points that were mentioned: arm carriage, posture, and the finishing touches without the crash course in ballet footwork.

Originally Posted by Vandelay

I'm doing a workshop with Sabah at Raqs Britannia - "Ballet for Bellydancers". Hopefully this will help me with some of these issues!

I can speak from personal experience that Sabah is a master at improving one's carriage, posture and arm frames. You'll love her!

Lisa,
I can totally relate to what you wrote. I've had some workshops with Mahmoud Reda, Farida Fahmy, and the like, and last year I had a huge identity crisis over this whole issue. I have never had any formal Western dance training (just what has been filtered through ME dance teachers). I found it ironic that in trying to learn Middle Eastern dance, I should feel inadequate because I didn't study ballet.

One thing that I really benefitted from in Reda's workshops is his disciplined, structured approach to teaching and choreographing - undoubtedly a product of his Western dance background. As both a teacher and a performer, this helped me very, very much. I'm Western, my students are Western, and I think culturally, we CRAVE structure, even though it's not intrinsic to "pure" raqs sharqi.

On the other hand, I realized quickly that I would never succeed as a 100% Reda-style dancer because I didn't start out as a ballerina, and frankly, I don't WANT to be a bellydancer-lite. I look at the great golden-age dancers like Tahiya Carioca and realize, THAT'S the type of dancer I want to be. All those golden-age dancers were "Western-influenced", but when they did raqs sharqi, there was no doubting it was raqs sharqi.

You captured my thoughts right here:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

All comes down to studying with a variety of instructors and being a sponge for as many different styles as you can pick up, and doing what's aesthetically pleasing across the board.

Also:

I think polished posture and carriage are key, whether you get that from a great Oriental instructor or from a course in ballet.

Agreed! And also: footwork/traveling.

Nisaa

having started so late in life

LOL... snif...wipes tear of laughter...Sorry...

I am 53 and while I will never be a bdss, I am becoming more comfortabe and growing in my skill level every month - still...after 6 years, and no training in dance, ever.

I think there is hope for you yet Satin!

I took up ballet in an adult ballet class a year ago to improve my posture, arms and weight placement for traveling moves and turns. And that's exactly what it did.

I'm getting compliments now on what I saw as my biggest weak points before.. It is just a really good way to train coordination, flexibility and strength.. important stuff for any dancer.

I felt like a dork the first few weeks but I keep going ;)

Aziza uses a LOT of her classical dance training in her shows and workshops, not only for the arms. Her legwork is phenomenal as well but not as heavily emphasized in her workshops.

I teach simple port de bras in my belly dance classes to help students understand moving the arms from the torso muscles and how to relax the shoulders and neck when using them. I call the exercises "ballet arms" and differentiate them from "oriental arms" which we also do. "Oriental arms" have different feelings and pathways but still initiate from the torso muscles. I find it really helps students open their backs and relax the upper torso.

Dance techniques can be quite different, but to use a speech analogy, you can speak a different language and use different speech sounds ("9" anyone? :-) ) but poor articulation is never a good idea. Do what you need to do to speak with clarity. :-)

One of the things which you will find you get from ballet training aside from what has been mentioned is those tiny nuances such as where to look and foot placement - one teacher I had siad that she could always tell who had has dance training because htey knew which foot to step on in a change of weight. ie: if you are standing with the weight on your left foot, makes sense that when you go to move you'll want to use your right foot, yes? You have no idea how many people get that wrong!

of course, I come from a ballet background, so that does set some things up for me. I can sometimes have to opposite problem. I have issues with accents. But that is also my body type. I just don't think the read well.

{{HUGS}}}

what I love about dancers that took a lot of ballet is the little nuances that Tahira mentions. They just look so damn graceful all the time! I think that looking for the middleground between western influences and oriental dance is what makes someone a good bellydancer.

I'm aiming for the golden era-feeling when I dance, great dancers of that time also did ballettraining for posture/arms/footwork. Wish I woldn't feel so ungraceful in a balletclass.

oh, deja vu here, I know I've said this before, but why can't/aren't these skills such as arm carriage, balance, centering, weight placement, etc. taught in oriental dance classes? If they are indeed a valid part of traditional oriental dance, then what we are seeing here is not so much a need for western cross-training, but a weak or non-existent area of our pedagogy as teachers. The Egyptian dancers have lifted upper bodies and graceful arms -- even the ones that did not have extensive ballet training. It is our own cultures focus on "hips" as the important thing in this dance to the exclusion of everything else that has lead to belly dance classes being too much about hips and not enough about these other things.

I give my students exercises that are my attempts to develop awareness of center, weight, and arms. However, having no ballet training that I can remember (I had some at age 5...) I guess I do not know how my methods compare to what one gets in ballet training.

I am looking forward to Kihmari's ballet for belly dancers that I will attend in a few weeks. However, my lack of enthusiasm for seeking out regular ballet training is that I have no desire to spend time/effort working on all the other parts of ballet that have no place in oriental dance: turnout, certain footwork, jumps, etc. Also, I have read a book by a sports medicine doctor who makes a very strong case that many of the flexibility exercises done at the bar are damaging to the joints and ligaments.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

One of the things which you will find you get from ballet training aside from what has been mentioned is those tiny nuances such as where to look and foot placement - one teacher I had siad that she could always tell who had has dance training because htey knew which foot to step on in a change of weight. ie: if you are standing with the weight on your left foot, makes sense that when you go to move you'll want to use your right foot, yes? You have no idea how many people get that wrong!

of course, I come from a ballet background, so that does set some things up for me. I can sometimes have to opposite problem. I have issues with accents. But that is also my body type. I just don't think the read well.

{{HUGS}}}

i have had the same insecrutiites about 5 years ago, when i really tried and decided to go "more" pro;

i wanted to do ballet as a little girl but wasnt allowed, cause it was bourgeois. i was send to jazz dance classes, but only took them for a few years, than some how ended up in more theater stuff, and than at age 14 finally in bellydancing.

i took up ballet, jazz and modern in my late twenties, and though i'll never be any good at those, the classes have helped tremendously, and each style helped with something else. so i stopped stressing about the fact that i didnt have ballet as a little girl. that's something i cannot change anymore so there is no use being upset about it. but what i can change is to work on my problem areas/weaknesses of the moment. and whether the answer is ballet, yoga, tabla classes, arabic classes, private classes... or simply some rest and a holiday, that's what i'll do.

I do think a ballet background definitely helps with arms and hands.

personally, i too, found myself a bit 'lacking' in the classical background.....wanted to in my youth, but the 'rents held the pursestrings and nixed it.....in seeing the golden age dancers, while they were sharqi, you could see the ballet infused into it, to appeal to western audiences (and thus, oriental as we know it was born :p), at least after those wonderful movies......

because tahia, and samia and others had similar training, and in trying to work into that style of dance, i plan to take ballet as well.....it can only help, we just have to be careful to not 'stiffen' ourselves or become to linear and maintain the fluidity of raqs sharqi.......

for me, it would improve the 'line', refine travel, arms, etc......which is why i plan to............can't hurt, could help

I second the Sabah workshop, of course ;)

I think ballet is important for posture, carriage, lift, and spin. Most of us have horrible posture, and that translates through the rest of our moves.

Lisa I think at this point, the ballet class I'm taking will only serve to improve those specific areas for me. I dont really feel the need to thow any pirouettes into my routines or anything, but I think the balance and coordination to execute one in my practice can only be beneficial...I recommend an adult class if you can stand the humiliation (which I feel often in mine) ;)

Originally Posted by ssipes

oh, deja vu here, I know I've said this before, but why can't/aren't these skills such as arm carriage, balance, centering, weight placement, etc. taught in oriental dance classes?

I do teach these things. Now I have had a lot studets in different parts of the world and I can see the lack of knowledge. Most of all the students that come to me have problems with these. Many of the students tell me that they never did any ballet - as it seems for them that I have. But it's not true - I never did. We only have very good teachers in Finland and Reda-technique helps a lot.

I hope I can explain this correctly: The ballet itself is not important. The universal dance rules and body postures are. Ballet is good way to learn them but not only one. These are very important for upper body and arm postures and any turning etc. Not only for turning a lot, but turning once very quickly as an accent, which is very modern Egyptian dance style as well.

If you feel you need classical training, get classical training. There are adult ballet classes everywhere.

I feel like ballet is important to follow some teachers. By follow, I mean actually know what they're talking about. Most of my teachers have used ballet terms to describe what we're doing, which is difficult since my last ballet class was when I was 6 or7

I think the reason why people flock to western dances is because there is such codification with posture and weight shifts and all that jazz (no pun intended). I think it's also very accessible for western dancers. I can think of so many places off the top of my head where I can get schooled in ballet or jazz.

I find, though, having an awareness of my body and what every little bit looks like is helpful. I take classical Indian dance for that, though. A different demon all together but some of the things I learn (like the importance of your hands, eyes, facial expression, etc.) translate over well

This thread is so interesting - thanks, everyone, for all the diverse viewpoints.

I'm especially in agreement with Sedonia here. It's not so much the chasses or the chaine turns or the arabesques that we benefit from or even use all that often in our dance, but the alignment, arm carriage and emphasis on body lines. All things that, in theory, can be taught through a lens of Oriental dance. I've studied with several instructors who emphasize all these great things without delving too far into outside dance influences: Zahra Zuhair, Virginia, and Shareen El Safy are just a few who emphasize perfect form yet keep it all relevant to the realm of bellydance. These great instructors are out there, but quite rare.

Ballet for BDers classes are a fantastic idea. I do take issue, however, with workshops billed as Oriental dance that are really mostly jazz or ballet with BD combos sporadically thrown in. If I want jazz, I'll take a jazz fusion class.

Definitely going through an identity crisis right now. I am 100% open to signing up for a ballet course, but I'm not entirely convinced that all the answers lie in learning an entirely new dance form, nor do I dig some of the elitist attitudes I've encountered along the way toward classical training and the lack thereof. I suppose it's a struggle between improving my craft through traditional means and adhering to a very comfortable personal style.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I go back and forth on this stuff, too. Fifi was such a breath of fresh air to me, style-wise. But I long for that effortless grace that comes so easily to the classically trained.

.

I don't think I've ever really come to a conclusion on this either. When I fell in love with Egyptian music I felt for sure it was the neo-classical fifi and soheir stylings I wanted to emulate... I really wanted to pursue pure sharqi.

But come my first aida workshop and finding the folkloric based sharqi material so easy and satisfying I started getting conflicted.

On one hand I had something I was naturally good at; spacial relations, footwork and being able to pick up choreo fast (thanks early jazz) and on the other I *knew* it wasn't the pure form I was hoping to learn. I was faced with the choice of indulging myself in something I was suited to or trying to train myself to a more non-folkloric influenced style.

The choice was partly made for me in the availability of training. Most Egyptian teachers that travelled were of the ex folkloric type so I indulged and enjoyed and ended up doing adult ballet to improve my upper body carriage and to strengthen my feet.

But I still have that conflict periodically, so I just tend to do my baladi-ish stuff a bit more polished (ala lucy) and my folkloric influenced sharqi stuff a bit more earthy (ala aida). Nicely avoids my having to make a decision

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

But I still have that conflict periodically, so I just tend to do my baladi-ish stuff a bit more polished (ala lucy) and my folkloric influenced sharqi stuff a bit more earthy (ala aida). Nicely avoids my having to make a decision

GOOD call!

Huh, I'm thinking Ballet for Bellydancers would be an interesting idea for a DVD.