Thread: Spin off: Benefits of early music training?

Hi Everyone

I was much struck by a comment that Sedonia made over on the classical dance training thread:

I do not think western dance training is necessary for oriental dance. Can it help? Sure. So can piano lessons or marching band (in fact, I am growing to think early musical training of any kind to be more beneficial than just about anything else).

What do you think about the benefits of early music training?

I'm in two minds on this. I started learning to read Western music and an instrument when I was quite young and have several formal qualifications in Western music theory and practice.

I've found that this has benefited me in that my 'ear' can register and distinguish ME instrumentation with ease - I'm always stunned when class mates say that they can't hear a drum, or a ney or even a mizmar!

On the other hand the whole rhythmic and structural side of ME music still eludes me from time to time.

What does Bhuz think? Is a musical background beneficial in learning the dance and if so how beneficial?

I think it helps. I did a lot of western classical music (piano, violin in many youth orchestras etc and singing (choral) between between the ages of 7ish and 22. I also did gymnastics as a child and I remember being constantly told of for trying to do my routines exactly in time with the music!

I think I had/have a more natural feel for arabic music than a lot of other dancers - even looking back to embarrasing baby dancer days I was with the music, I just looked like crap (I remember a teacher who tried to make us dance a 4 bar phrase out of sync with the 4 bar phrases in the music - torture). The rhythms, instruments may be different but there are ways of looking at and 'analysing' (and by that I mean mostly subconsciously) the music that are transferrable. A bar is a bar, a phrase is a phrase etc.

Also however, I have a very mathmatical/scientific brain (is that left side, can't remember) - my brain is always trying to see patterns in things. If I see a string of coloured lights or a carpet pattern I can't rest until I've worked out how the repeating pattern is made. That could just mean I am crazy though. The bars and phrases and sections of music are all about how it fits into the pattern of a piece. People accuse me of intellectualising this and not 'feeling' it (godessy waffle etc) but this understanding of the pattern *is* soemthing I juat feel.

Having said that, I do know of other dancers that have done western music to a decent standard (or are still doing it) that can keep on the beat etc but have no feel for the phrasing of arabic music. It may be something you either have or you haven't and people who have a natural feeling for music of any sort are more likely to have persued musical hobbies as a child anyway?

Wow that was a lot more waffley than i was intending

Z

I will agree with everything Zafirah has said. (And yeah, one of my pet peeves is when people go off about intellectualizing vs. feeling, as though they are mutually exclusive states of being, or go off on "right brain" vs. "left brain" as though most of don't have both halves working, and somewhat integrated at that.)

I am not a musician, but I did shown musical tendencies very early, picking tunes out on the piano as a toddler, then in grade school I took some violin (then moved to a school district with band only - no orchestra), a smattering of private violin lessons, choir in school (learned lots about music despite having a quite poor singing voice), a semester of music theory in high school, another spattering of piano lessons (after self-teaching most of my life), then in graduate school taught myself a bit of recorder (needed an instrument I could take camping during field biology research), and a very small bit of tabla once I started dancing.

I think all this had alot to do with how I picked up on things like finding the "one" of a measure, hearing rhythms, and playing finger cymbals when I was a baby dancer, long before I could actually "dance", and today I feel like my musicality exceeds my body's ability to do what I want it to.

I have also sometimes informally polled students about whether they have past musical or dance experience. These backgrounds seem to enhance their learning speed and abilities in ME dance differently. In the other post, I expressed my thoughts that perhaps musical background helps more than dance background because ultimately, being a good dancer depends upon musicality, and those are much more esoteric things to learn than drilling dance technique.

Of course, it is impossible to say how much of these skill sets are correlated innate tendencies and how much is from the "training".

Thanks for clarifying that Sedonia. You're quite right that this isn't a measurable thing.

Perhaps what early music training can do is 'tune in' our ears a bit more. I showed some musical talent quite early and without tuition but it did take formal instruction to train me how to listen to music and pull out the nuances in there.

Originally Posted by zafirah

Also however, I have a very mathmatical/scientific brain (is that left side, can't remember) - my brain is always trying to see patterns in things. If I see a string of coloured lights or a carpet pattern I can't rest until I've worked out how the repeating pattern is made.

Yes, supposedly that is left brain. And some people would probably assume that if you see these mathematical patterns, you can't appreciate the wholistic beauty or pattern of the carpet or lights (right brain), which is generally bunk, unless one is towards the extreme of an idiot savant.

I also find mathematical patterns in arabic music. I'm not talking pi to a thousand digits or golden ratios here, I'm talking simple integer patterns. However, I don't talk about them much, because I've had some very negative conversations with people about how wrong it is to "intellectualize".

Oh, and then there was the MED-list thread from a decade or more ago, in which certain people just couldn't get it through their heads that people who were "scientists" or "mathematicians" (both being ignorantly assumed to be a predominantly "left brain" activity) could actually be creative dancers. One person just kept coming back with varying degrees of faint praise, the progression being something like:

person: scientists/mathematicians must find it very hard to learn dance
me -- [insert rant]
person: oh, well scientists/mathematicians must rely heavily on counting out measures, etc.
me -- [insert second rant]
person: oh, well perhaps scientists/mathematicians have different strengths in the dance. For example, they probably like working with choreography rather than improvisation.
me: [beats head against wall]

Oh, and then there was the MED-list thread from a decade or more ago, in which certain people just couldn't get it through their heads that people who were "scientists" or "mathematicians" (both being ignorantly assumed to be a predominantly "left brain" activity) could actually be creative dancers. One person just kept coming back with varying degrees of faint praise

What twaddle!!,f::

Some of the most famous Mathematicians and Scientists of all time were accomplished and expressive musicians. Anyone heard of Einstein and his violin?!

I'd never really thought about whether those recorder lessons I did when I was 6 helped with my dancing ..g.: but since those led onto more formal musical training with another instrument (practice and theory until I was 18) maybe they did! Certainly exercises in describing the instrumentation and structure of western classical pieces helped when I came to writing my own choreographies. I think that it's all well and good having a natural aptitude for something, but you won't make the most of it without training. If you immerse yourself in a variety of music then I think you do develop a feeling for structure and phrasing, which helps when faced with an unfamiliar style (I have to admit I still struggle with rhythms like 9/8 though!).

Zaf, I know what you mean about being out of sync with the phrasing, it's physically painful! If I accidentally do it in class I have to stop everyone and start again, my students probably think I'm crazy.

I studied piano as a kid, and was in marching band. Not a huge amount of musical training, but I think it helped. Being able to intellectually understand music helps when trying to hear and feel the music. Thanks to marching band, I know where the one is. Thanks to the ability to read music, I can understand better the discussions of rhythms. But there were still some areas about music I never understood until I started dancing. Just recently, I learned what the second number in 9/8 or 4/4 means. I thought I knew what it meant, but I was wrong - a classmate cleared it all up for me. (she's a professional musician).

I really hate it when a dance is taught with music, but not to the music. I took a hip hop class once where the teacher was doing the same routine over and over again, with accents and all - but with different music throughout the class. The normal hiphop class I would take - the teacher/choreographer would teach segments of the dance to the music, and keep restarting the music so that it constantly matched the choreo. Sometimes when I see western dancers (i.e. so you think you can dance), it seems like they are not dancing TO the music at all and I don't get how you can dance, without responding to the music.

I took violin as a kid and have taken music lessons for the past 10 years.
I've not considered how this may have affected my dancing.

I do know I love to sing along and respond to the vocals as well as the beat. To me it's given that the voice is an instrument that can be followed in dance. I can sing in spanish, german, italian and french but I've only taken classes in spanish, much of what I have done is by ear so the maths relationship doesn't work with me. I hear it and repeat so I guess that makes me a parrot

my first set of 45's, was all classical.then in 1953, i started formal dance training.learning the "sections" involved in classical music and dance really help those with no ear for M F music.
i find when i coach a dancer with that backgroung, i teach useing music terms..."this drum solo is stacato etc".singing opera 10 years helps too.
it's all about the music!
z

Originally Posted by ssipes

Yes, supposedly that is left brain. And some people would probably assume that if you see these mathematical patterns, you can't appreciate the wholistic beauty or pattern of the carpet or lights (right brain), which is generally bunk, unless one is towards the extreme of an idiot savant.

I also find mathematical patterns in arabic music. I'm not talking pi to a thousand digits or golden ratios here, I'm talking simple integer patterns. However, I don't talk about them much, because I've had some very negative conversations with people about how wrong it is to "intellectualize".

Oh, and then there was the MED-list thread from a decade or more ago, in which certain people just couldn't get it through their heads that people who were "scientists" or "mathematicians" (both being ignorantly assumed to be a predominantly "left brain" activity) could actually be creative dancers. One person just kept coming back with varying degrees of faint praise, the progression being something like:

person: scientists/mathematicians must find it very hard to learn dance
me -- [insert rant]
person: oh, well scientists/mathematicians must rely heavily on counting out measures, etc.
me -- [insert second rant]
person: oh, well perhaps scientists/mathematicians have different strengths in the dance. For example, they probably like working with choreography rather than improvisation.
me: [beats head against wall]

Yes, I have had a LOT of stick for this sort of thing, but mostly from one individual who's issues with me extend beyond me being a scientist. It bugs the **** out of me, that as soon as I mention breaking the music down into sections or counting bars I'm being a scary robot scientist and not feeeellling it. I do innately feel these patterns but I have to break it down and vocalise it/write it down to explain it. I actually taught a workshop on musical interpretation that started with basics of bars and rhythms, onto phrasing then on to how to find sections in the music by rhythm and instruments etc etc and had several people come up to me afterwards saying ‘it was all very interesting but I’m not mathematical’ or ‘it was all very interesting but I can’t count these things’. GAH.

I think if I was up against the person you were against Sedona, I would also point out that any good scientist has their work constantly subjected to peer review and learn to be critical of even their own work. Hell, some of the more um . . ‘feeeellyy’ dancers could really do with a more sceptical view of their own work !!!

I think any type of early musical training helps one develop an appreciation for music...and without that, a dancer has an uphill battle!

I did jazz/ballet/tap classes as a kid, and sang in HS "show" choir and I think that, and coming from a musical family, helps a lot with my musicality (along with Zahra's geniousness). [And, incidentally, I also obtained a degree in Math from UCLA.]

I've taken lots of drumming classes and can play most rhythms out on a tabla, BUT, I noticed recently when Leila of Cairo was here that I often listen to and dance to the melody of most songs rather than the rhythms and syncopated accents that are so fundamental to Egyptian style dance.

So, I guess I think it could be both helpful in some respects and an obstacle in others.

I think being exposed to music -- lots and lots of music -- of various genres is extremely helpful. I am not a trained musician by any means, but I've been singing since I was a toddler -- lots of exposure to music in general, plus rhythm, dynamics, construction, etc in choirs starting in grade school.

Exposure to what westerners often (erroneously) term "classical" music, from Baroque to Romantic and beyond (that's quite a spread), is helpful for the complexities of Egyptian/Lebanese "classical" music; really listening to the music and capturing the nuances in the changes, etc, is really helpful!

Quote from Zafirah: "as soon as I mention breaking the music down into sections or counting bars I'm being a scary robot scientist and not feeeellling it. I do innately feel these patterns but I have to break it down and vocalise it/write it down to explain it. I actually taught a workshop on musical interpretation that started with basics of bars and rhythms, onto phrasing then on to how to find sections in the music by rhythm and instruments etc etc and had several people come up to me afterwards saying ‘it was all very interesting but I’m not mathematical’ or ‘it was all very interesting but I can’t count these things’. GAH."

DOUBLE GAH!!!

How else are ya gonna teach it if you don't explain it???!!! I've met some musically-untrained folks with a natural understanding of music who might actually be a bit confused by all the explanation, but these are people who already "get" the music somehow and more or less just need some help in selecting movement; these folks are rare and were probably not in Zafirah's workshop! Oh, the frustration . . . ..cr.:



I believe western musical training is helpful, just as I believe dance training is helpful, but it isn't strictly necessary nor will it much help those who, though they love it, will never get it.

Deborah

Oh I definitely think music training helps. My mom was a music teacher so i was exposed to music at a very young age. Recorder, flute, french horn, choir, marching band. When I first started belly dancing I caught on real quickly because I did have this music training, especially when learning to play zills.

Formal dance training on the other hand I don't think helps as much as musical training. Western dance styles and belly dancing are two very different styles of dance. I often have the most problem with students who took ballet.

I do however find it's helpful to study other dance styles LATER. Like ballet or flamenco to help improve posture and arms.

I took violin for many years, and I really feel that has helped me a lot in terms of understanding music and how it is created, in addition to all the technical things like counting measures, phrases, time signatures, etc. Plus, sitting in the middle of a full orchestra or even a quartet means you'd better learn to pick out different instruments as they all play at once, otherwise you'd never be able to play along with others. Or I suppose you could, by just counting, but it wouldn't have any soul.

As importantly, I grew up in a household where music was always playing, and a wide variety of it. My dad played largely classical music spanning all eras and jazz from its earliest roots up through the classic 50s and 60s cool jazz and bebop. The jazz especially trained my ear to hear different rhythms--a 9/8? Oh, that's like Dave Brubeck. African rhythms? Oh, that's like Art Blakey. My mom played Buffy Ste. Marie, Donovan and Joan Baez, which I think helped me understand some of the nature of folk music and to recognize a good hook when I heard one. Both of them would play albums from all over the world because they were curious about what the music would sound like. From both my parents, it was instilled in me that music is something to be passionate about. And I think that's one of the big reasons that belly dance took such a hold on me--it was a way to channel the passion that I feel for music. Do you need this kind of background? No, but I don't think I'd be the dancer that I am now if I'd grown up in a quiet household.

Originally Posted by zafirah

Yes, I have had a LOT of stick for this sort of thing, but mostly from one individual who's issues with me extend beyond me being a scientist. It bugs the **** out of me, that as soon as I mention breaking the music down into sections or counting bars I'm being a scary robot scientist and not feeeellling it. I do innately feel these patterns but I have to break it down and vocalise it/write it down to explain it. I actually taught a workshop on musical interpretation that started with basics of bars and rhythms, onto phrasing then on to how to find sections in the music by rhythm and instruments etc etc and had several people come up to me afterwards saying ‘it was all very interesting but I’m not mathematical’ or ‘it was all very interesting but I can’t count these things’. GAH.

Double GAH! These people must never have had any musical training, because by their logic, music students must never "count" or "break down", else they will never "feel" the music. Yeah, right, a professional classical musician playing Bach or Beethoven isn't feeling the music because they started out reading the musical notation. Right.

I think if I was up against the person you were against Sedona, I would also point out that any good scientist has their work constantly subjected to peer review and learn to be critical of even their own work. Hell, some of the more um . . ‘feeeellyy’ dancers could really do with a more sceptical view of their own work !!!

Also, non-scientists are generally clueless as to the amount of creativity and "right brain" cognitive skills required to do science.

I also think that the best scientists have creative interests and hobbies: music, art, dance, woodworking, or whatever. Of course, if I say this around colleagues who don't do any of these things, they tend to get rather irritated...

In our graduate student orientation seminar, I tell them they have to have 1) a creative outlet and 2) regular exercise or they will be in the nuthouse before they finish their degrees. In my department right now, two graduate students are in professional bands, one is in the civic orchestra, one is in my dance troupe, one does ballet, my department chair has a full woodworking shop at his house, I know of at least two faculty who at least play an instrument.

"Formal dance training on the other hand I don't think helps as much as musical training. Western dance styles and belly dancing are two very different styles of dance. I often have the most problem with students who took ballet. "
****** wow, ballet helped here, and hula dancers are my worst to teach!they bend the knees to much.jazz dancers want to lift their feet, instead of sliding.i actually teach ballet for belly dance

..i think i still haver buffy st marie ablums!

by their logic, music students must never "count" or "break down", else they will never "feel" the music. Yeah, right, a professional classical musician playing Bach or Beethoven isn't feeling the music because they started out reading the musical notation. Right.

No, that's eeeeeevil western patriarchal music. It's sick and wrong and anathema to us womynlywimmin, who should be experiencing things Naturally in a Different Feminine Sensitive WooWoo Way. Also known as "I just do what I feeeeeeeel (and I am superior to you because of it)."

Originally Posted by zumarrad

No, that's eeeeeevil western patriarchal music. It's sick and wrong and anathema to us womynlywimmin, who should be experiencing things Naturally in a Different Feminine Sensitive WooWoo Way. Also known as "I just do what I feeeeeeeel (and I am superior to you because of it)."

..l;, I knew it, not only am I an inferior left-brained robot scientist, I'm probably a bloke as well.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Also, non-scientists are generally clueless as to the amount of creativity and "right brain" cognitive skills required to do science.

I also think that the best scientists have creative interests and hobbies: music, art, dance, woodworking, or whatever. Of course, if I say this around colleagues who don't do any of these things, they tend to get rather irritated...

In our graduate student orientation seminar, I tell them they have to have 1) a creative outlet and 2) regular exercise or they will be in the nuthouse before they finish their degrees. In my department right now, two graduate students are in professional bands, one is in the civic orchestra, one is in my dance troupe, one does ballet, my department chair has a full woodworking shop at his house, I know of at least two faculty who at least play an instrument.

Yes yes yes! Sedonia I agree about creativity in science and well, everything you say really. A lot of our work is problem solving, how to design an experiment that answers our particular question - I think sometimes you do need leaps of creativity beyond logical progresson for that. btw I'm doing my post doc in cell/cancer biology at the moment, I think I remember you are a PI in some sort of plant biology?

I was going to say this earlier, but thought it might be a little controversial. I think generally scientists are pretty well rounded people - as you say most of us (except a few individuals who are generally quite scary and I would never want to work for) have some sort of creative or sporty pastime. How many people in creative fields do something logical in their spare time?

Z

edited to add: actually my auntie was a violin teacher and collected stamps as a pastime - that's sort of an example?!

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

..l;, I knew it, not only am I an inferior left-brained robot scientist, I'm probably a bloke as well.

A quote from Steven Pinker: "Among the claims of "difference feminists" are that women do not engage in abstract linear reasoning, that they do not treat ideas with skepticism or evaluate them through rigorous debate, that they do not argue from general moral principles, and other insults."

Found in "Unweaving The Rainbow" by Richard Dawkins, which has a short discussion of "feminist science" guaranteed to make you want to rip your hair out in frustration at the idiocy of some women.

Sedonia, interesting theory about the creative outlet, I think that explains a lot about some of the scientists I used to work for!

I had early training in classical Western music - from recorder lessons to playing in a youth orchestra to getting my (*boast alert*) Grade 8 clarinet. Of course, I haven't touched an instrument since I was about 18 (when other stuff became more appealing than practising an hour a day!), but that training stays with you. My dad is also a jazz buff, so I was exposed to a lot of traditional and experimental jazz growing up.

Although this musical training hasn't helped me in my dancing per se, it has helped me with understanding the music that I dance to, and I think that in turn helps my dancing. Like others have mentioned, I can distinguish different instruments, distinguish rhythms and phrasing - this I think is due to musical training.

I was a musician for a little more than 12 years - up until freshman year college. At the time I wanted to be a professional musician. So yeah, I have a lot of experience. My opinion is that, even though I was trained in Western music, that training still helps in Eastern music. Yes, the rhythms are different, but something as basic as counting a measure out is lost by other colleagues. I also think that being a musician helps you be music-oriented. With a well-trained ear you can listen to music and distinguish melody and countermelody, rhythm changes, tempo changes, crescendos, etc.