Thread: Troupe Costuming Issue...........

Okay, here's my question - at what point should a troupe require a dancer wear a body stocking? I don't want to be mean but for an upcoming performance on a concert stage, the entire troupe of 12 has to wear veil across shoulder and tucked in at front with bra & bvelt because of ONE dancer who has extreme belly and back roll issues. This is an inexperienced intermediate level dancer who also has an "attitude" about costuming; she refuses to pin her belts so they ride up in back and droop and gape in front, is always late and unprepared for performances and expects everyone else to rush to her assistance. Being 1x size myself, I am sympathetic to a point with her weight issues but when the entire troupe has to "cover up" because of one dancer, I think it's ridiculous. ,f:: ..c:: ,f::

Honestly, all of her other traits as you describe them would be enough for me to kick her out without ever having to deal with her belly. You adhere to a certain standard of professionalism in a troupe (student or otherwise) or you don't dance. You don't get to be disruptive and make the group as a whole look bad. If she doesn't pin her belt, she's going to look like hell with or without a bodystocking!

See, problem solved!

Originally Posted by Zana

Honestly, all of her other traits as you describe them would be enough for me to kick her out without ever having to deal with her belly. You adhere to a certain standard of professionalism in a troupe (student or otherwise) or you don't dance. You don't get to be disruptive and make the group as a whole look bad. If she doesn't pin her belt, she's going to look like hell with or without a bodystocking!

See, problem solved!

You're right of course and I think it is leading up to that since the disruption she causes crosses over into every class and she doesn't listen to directions, ugh! I'm just fuming over one leetle performance this weekend -well, it is a paid gig and the director is taking no chances so I don't blame her. After that, there will be time to "deal" with her lack of professionalism. I just had to vent, loudly, after trying on the veil drape which covers most of my bra, all of my nicely coin draped belly, and a good part of belt that I worked HARD on this week. Grrrrrrrrr!..cr.:

I should say I know that doesn't really help with the bodystocking question, but your description really made me think how much I would not want to have to work with this person.

I've often been the largest in a group (fellow 1X here) and am trying to think how I would want to have that handled if I were the one with the rolls. The trouble I guess is that often an appeal to vanity will work -- it would work for me! -- but it doesn't sound as if she has much.

I have to agree with Zana. Body-issues aside, any "attitude" in a troupe is not a good thing. If it's not dealt with, the attitude can spread, causing animosity among members. Pretty soon, the group disassembles because people can't get along. I've seen it happen sooooo many times!

I guess I'd ask you to clarify--is this a student troupe or professional? Who's the director? Is there a director? Or is it a bunch of friend getting together and having fun? I'm just asking b/c these things affect the dynamics of the troupe--and give a clearer understanding of who's in charge (who can make these sorts of costuming/membership calls).

My take is that even though bellydance is for all shapes and ages, one should wear costuming that flatters the dancer. And, it seems to me that the troupe member does not quite stick to that idea as she should for public performances.

I'd require a body stocking, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with discriminating or body image, it is a matter of professional attitude, not to mention supporting the rest of the troupe. Sometimes, when dancing in a troupe, one has to make compromises.

But, overall, it sounds as if this lady needs a good talking to about professional attitude.

We crossed there, sorry! I'd definitely be annoyed, too.

Still thinking about how to approach the bodystocking itself because it's a matter of some personal interest to me....

But coming at the costuming issue from a different angle, just as a thought to play with, what about varying the veil drapes so everyone's doing one but they differ in placement and shape. She's more draped, you're less draped, maybe someone else is in between? This would make the drape part of a cohesive look but you -- and your pretty costumes -- wouldn't all be covered to the same extent. And you wouldn't have the problem of trying to push her into a garment no one else is wearing.

If this dancer weren't a 'problem child' in other ways, I think I'd start by setting some ground rules for costuming & put it in writing. Something like:

"Costuming must look professional and flatter the dancer. No transparent skirts; no gaping bras or tops; armpits must be clean-shaven, etc. We welcome dancers of all ages and sizes but our first priority is public acceptance of our group and our art, so dancers who are overweight will be asked to wear a body stocking with their costumes."

(Now comes my theoretical waffling. I'm so torn on these issues. Would a dancer with an ugly face be asked to wear a bag over her head? Who decided which bellies are attractive enough to be seen and which ones aren't? What if a dancer is thin but has loose skin or stretch marks or surgical scars or a skin condition?)

Still, I wouldn't want to put any dancer in a situation where I felt she might be laughed at or ridiculed by the audience. So if the written notes didn't work, I'd take her aside and say "We're happy to have you dancing with us. But I'm worried that our audiences at these events might not be ready to accept both a new form of dance AND a new definition of female beauty at the same time. If we're going to advance our art, then we have to work within their frame of reference. So I have to ask you to wear a body stocking (or dress or whatever) when we're dancing for the public. It's not necessary for haflas, recitals and workshop shows, but for the general public it's required from here on out."

(more self-conflicted waffling going on in my head now, all about grown women making their own decisions, but I'll spare you.)

It seems like it's gotten kind of mixed as to what this thread is about . . . but if it's about whether it's right for everyone to be forced to dress in exactly the same way with the costume choice being driven by one dancer's body type . . . I'd say the answer is no, this is not the best approach, but the responsibility for this lies with the troupe leader, teacher or director. Some directors are very attached to the idea of identical cookie-cutter costumes for the whole group. When the members of the group have really varied body types, this typically means that someone is forced to wear something they feel is unbecoming while the costume choice favors someone else's appearance. There's bound to be resentment about this. Other directors develop costumes with enough commonality to present a unified theme while also working in varations that flatter the individual dancers. In my opinion, this second approach is the better one. The dancers like it better that way and so does the audience.
Rosette

One more thought. In order to implement the "flattering variations" approach, the director does have to take the time for individual consultations with dancers about their costume options. That's not just a secret meeting with "the fat one." Everyone should be given the same opportunity to discuss their costume concerns privately.
R

I also think that it's wrong to adjust the troupe costuming because one person acts unprofessional. What I was wondering: it sounds to me that she's not making an effort to fit into the group. Chances are that the rest of the group will have their draped veil (as instructed) and she's not wearing hers. If she ignored the suggestion to pin her belt down in the first place, why would she follow other advice on costuming matters?

In short, I think you should adres her about her behavior because it damages the image of the group. The costume issue seems to arise from her attitude and asking her to wear a drape would be a temporary measure that would not adres the attitude that causes this problem.

Originally Posted by Rosette

One more thought. In order to implement the "flattering variations" approach, the director does have to take the time for individual consultations with dancers about their costume options. That's not just a secret meeting with "the fat one." Everyone should be given the same opportunity to discuss their costume concerns privately.
R

As someone who has costume issues due to being really skinny on top (shoulders, etc.), but more normal sized on the bottom (and with a high waist), I have to agree. Even though weight wise, I'm considered "ideal", I'm not ideal appearance-wise. Having "flattering variations" would be really nice in a troupe situation.

Originally Posted by Rosette

Everyone should be given the same opportunity to discuss their costume concerns privately.
R

This is a very good thought. Nobody wants to be singled out and treated like The Problem, and everyone's got concerns about this or that fat or skinny or pale or dark or short or tall bit -- even the apparently perfect beauties. Making a quick private "consult" part of the costume decision process would smooth things out in a lot of situations, IMO.

Eek -- this thread is giving me flashbacks. But it's a good topic, if a hard one.

I'll try to answer all the questions; yes, there is a director, the troupe is a mix of levels from strong intermediate to advanced to what I'd term "semi-professional". The director wants a uniform look but allows some creativity with belly drapes so every body type can look good. The real problem here is the uncoooperative, disruptive attitude of one dancer among a dozen. If she was cooperative, there wouldn't be such a problem with her costuming in the first place.The ground rules for costuming have been reiterated and I just sent out an e-mail reminder at the director's request as to exactly what is required costume-wise for this gig; they must arrive in full costume and makeup since dressing room is not availagle. In order to perform, they must check in with her first.
I guess what I'm getting with all this is that a body stocking alone will not solve the problems with this dancer. I also realize that I don't have to cover up "completely" with the veil drape as long as it is over one shoulder it can be folded narrower so my pretty assuit coin bra and coin belly drape shows..g.: Thanks for letting me vent girlz! I'll let you know how this works out.

I used to be in a troupe, where the women varied from size small to XL/1X, from short to tall, from B cup to DD, and every shape-hourglass, pear, and apple.

Here is what I think:

~Weight and size has NOTHING to do with being professional. It doesn't matter if you are a size 2 or 22, everyone in a performance should have rules given to them by the director. These are professional rules such as having shaved armpits, proper makeup, fitting and pinning costumes properly, a clean costume that fits, wearing some sort of cover up when not performing, attending rehearsals, and so on and so forth. The same rules should apply to everyone.

~Unless you are in a professional troupe like Jillina's ladies or The Rockettes, where there are guidelines for size/shape and who is accepted, I don't think that cookie cutter costumes are good for troupes. I just don't. Basically, it is like being a bridesmaid. Too many figure/height/shape/size variations a lot of times, for it to be flattering to all.

The troupe that I used to be with (and designed costumes for) used color schemes, or fabric types, as the troupe costume-not everyone in a gold bedlah and red skirt. It just worked better that way. It is much more flattering to say "The troupe costume is going to be fire colors-red, rust, orange, gold" and have a few suggested fabric choices...it is going to look much better. Everyone can coordinate, but wear costumes that flatter their figures better. The troupe that I used to be in did this, and we always got SO many compliments.

~I don't think that a certain weight, or size, should be the rule in deciding who must wear a body stocking. Body shape, and physical fitness/body fat is more important. For instance, you can have a woman who wears plus size jeans in a 16 or 18...but she could be a pear shape, and most of her weight is covered by her harems and skirt. She could have a nice hourglass waist-even if it isn't a size 2. On the other hand, you could have a dancer who is a size 6, but she might have had 3 kids and be in her 50's-and even though she isn't heavy, a body stocking would make her look better. I don't think that a body stocking should be required for SIZE.

I love the idea of individual consultations for everyone, and I love Ambrehl's suggestions for themed costumes for troupes.

I'm sooo uncomfortable with the idea of deciding that this individual's belly is pretty enough to be shown, and this one's isn't. In a pro troupe where the dancers are paid to be there, you can dictate. But when it's all recreational anyway? Let them make their own decisions about how comfortable they are with types of costumes.

The decision to have everyone drape a veil is a nice option for some things (I've done it for parades, etc. where we want to be more covered but still look like 'bellydancers"). Doing so because the director wants one dancer's belly to be covered isn't a great motivation though.

This thread hurts my head and my heart.

Nisima, since you're not the director and don't have control over the situation, I think your decision to just get happy with a way of complying with the drape that doesn't hide your costume is the best possible plan.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I love the idea of individual consultations for everyone, and I love Ambrehl's suggestions for themed costumes for troupes.

I'm sooo uncomfortable with the idea of deciding that this individual's belly is pretty enough to be shown, and this one's isn't. In a pro troupe where the dancers are paid to be there, you can dictate. But when it's all recreational anyway? Let them make their own decisions about how comfortable they are with types of costumes.

The decision to have everyone drape a veil is a nice option for some things (I've done it for parades, etc. where we want to be more covered but still look like 'bellydancers"). Doing so because the director wants one dancer's belly to be covered isn't a great motivation though.

This thread hurts my head and my heart.

Nisima, since you're not the director and don't have control over the situation, I think your decision to just get happy with a way of complying with the drape that doesn't hide your costume is the best possible plan.

Yup.;,r:;

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm sooo uncomfortable with the idea of deciding that this individual's belly is pretty enough to be shown, and this one's isn't. In a pro troupe where the dancers are paid to be there, you can dictate. But when it's all recreational anyway? Let them make their own decisions about how comfortable they are with types of costumes.

Thank you so much for saying this, Lauren. As the 50-year-old who's had 3 large babies, I do feel it's up to me to decide whether or not I'm comfortable baring my belly. I'm always perfectly happy to go along with troupe costuming decisions, but whether or not I wear a body stocking with the troupe costume is my own decision, in my opinion.

Now, to be sure, I'm not a paid, professional dancer (nor do I ever expect to be--I'm well aware that I don't have the look that most places want from a paid dancer, for one thing). I dance in a student troupe at community and city events, fundraisers, and events within the bellydance community. In those circumstances, I do believe that all body types should be accepted (and are, for the most part, in my experience). I think I would feel quite humiliated if my instructor/director were to tell me, however, tactfully, that my belly is too hideous to bare in public, and I must wear a body stocking. After being a skinny size 3 in my teens and twenties, it took me a while to come to terms with my belly. Now that I've done so, I expect others to like it or lump it. If they are so disgusted by looking at it, they don't have to look at me. They can look at the other dancers. Again, that hasn't been my experience. I've had many compliments from members of the public on my dancing and my costumes.

Now, the lack of professionalism is another issue. While this person is, presumably, not a "professional" dancer in the true sense, if she is not willing to 1. be on time, 2. be in costume, 3. make reasonable efforts to avoid costume malfunctions (pins are an essential element of a dancer's wardrobe!), and 4. get along with the group and contribute to a supportive, enjoyable atmosphere, then perhaps she's not ready to be part of a performing student troupe. I think the director has every right to expect troupe dancers to bring a certain amount of commitment and professionalism to the troupe.

I'm curious.

Have you ever taped a perfomance and has this dancer ever seen how she looks when her belt is riding up? ,r:;

Costume malfunctions, wether they're riding up, falling down, belt continues to spin around you, when you've stopped (happened to me when I lost weight .w.: ), etc., all looks BAD, and unprofessional.

I hope she starts working with you.

Originally Posted by gothique

I'm curious.

Have you ever taped a perfomance and has this dancer ever seen how she looks when her belt is riding up? ,r:;

Costume malfunctions, wether they're riding up, falling down, belt continues to spin around you, when you've stopped (happened to me when I lost weight .w.: ), etc., all looks BAD, and unprofessional.

I hope she starts working with you.

Hmmm, that's an idea but since she has a habit of blaming everyone else for her costume "malfunctions" i.e., "costumes should be made to fit right" I dought it would have any effect. What it will take is the director telling her privately, point blank that she cannot go onstage with her belt gaping 4 inches in front and riding up her back any more than a dancer whose bra isn't fitting can. She is not any more entitled than any dancer in troupe as far as costuming requiremets but it is odd that she seems to think she is exempt, somehow, from taking responsibility.

Originally Posted by aazura

[. . . ] any "attitude" in a troupe is not a good thing. If it's not dealt with, the attitude can spread, causing animosity among members. Pretty soon, the group disassembles because people can't get along. I've seen it happen sooooo many times!

This is the "ethylene effect", ethylene being the odorless, colourless gas that promotes ripening in fruit. This is why it only takes one bad apple to really spoil the barrel. It emits a lot of ethylene, which causes the other fruit to start producing ethylene and soon afterward they will all be rotting.

Teachers and troupe leaders, if you have a dancer or dancers who are spoiled rotten or who are spoiling the atmosphere for anyone, including yourself, watch out. Better yet, don't sit back and watch and hope for weeks on end that it might improve, like I did; call or meet for a one-on-one to help this dancer or these dancers turn things around or find another dance experience altogether.

If someone is unhappy in a class or troupe, whether it's a costuming issue, or class agenda, then it behooves that person to communicate *directly* with the teacher/director in order to find a solution. How else is the teacher to know and make improvements if nothing is openly communicated????

Education is a two-way street.

The ultimate decision lies with the teacher/director, who will undoubtedly have a greater vision for the direction of the class/troupe than do its members. This does not mean that concessions can't be made, of course; the best teacher/director will do her or his best to keep everyone happy and at the same time maximize the agenda and artistic vision set out for the troupe.

If a dancer is really that unhappy or insists on being unhappy, then it's best he/she move on, no problemo. No need to poison the collective atmosphere with eyerolling, pouting in class, backstabbing, and saying within earshot of new students, "I'm really not enjoying so-and-so's classes anymore".

I've posted it before in another thread: I highly recommend Dr. Cheryl Dellasega's insightful book "Mean Girls Grown Up". Once you can identify the dynamics within you and in others, you can draw your own line in the sand that much earlier, and save yourself and others in your group that much more anguish.


Moving forward in peace

Khalida

Originally Posted by khalida777

If a dancer is really that unhappy or insists on being unhappy, then it's best he/she move on, no problemo. No need to poison the collective atmosphere with eyerolling, pouting in class, backstabbing, and saying within earshot of new students, "I'm really not enjoying so-and-so's classes anymore".

I think this is absolutely spot on.

Another idea. Why not have the whole troupe wear body stockings, then? I was reading with interest another thread on how to make these inexpensively, using Danskin tights. Why not make them part of the costume, adding some sequins or rhinestones to them, so that they are part of the "ooh la la," instead of being something only one member is supposed to wear, because her body supposedly doesn't live up to some people's standards?

That way, the rest of the troupe wouldn't have to hide their pretty costumes with veils, and one person wouldn't be singled out and shamed (which could be a factor in her attitude, perhaps???? (not saying that makes her attitude okay)).

Danskin's no seem fishnets (I think it is style 202?). They come up to size C/D. Cut off the legs and they work great. Really suck you in as well! (the legs could then be used to sew guantlets!). Add some beads or crystals to the body stocking and they will be lovely for everyone.

We're all adults... I'd have a talk with her about what you expect out of her in regards to both costuming, rehearsal and performances. If she's unresponsive and does not improve, then it seems to me, the only way around it is to ask her to leave.

She knows she's overweight... I wouldn't fancy-foot around the issue and would take her aside and gently discuss this with her. She may be comfortable with her weight, but if she is substantially overweight - people will be fixated on her weight instead of her dancing. Not that I agree with society's narrow vision of beauty, but it's the truth.

Originally Posted by Zana

Honestly, all of her other traits as you describe them would be enough for me to kick her out without ever having to deal with her belly. You adhere to a certain standard of professionalism in a troupe (student or otherwise) or you don't dance. You don't get to be disruptive and make the group as a whole look bad. If she doesn't pin her belt, she's going to look like hell with or without a bodystocking!

See, problem solved!

I completely agree-when you are part of a troupe you need to be mindful of the rest of the group. Sounds like she shouldn't be dancing if she takes no pride in how she or the rest of the group presents themselves. Maybe she should work towards a solo :)

Update: So we all "covered up" more or less with the Assuit shawls draped over one shoulder and tucked in at one hip. As a group, we looked better on stage as far as equalizing body types, but but not exactly right over a 25' big skirt in various colors and tribal bra & belt - the Assuit is part of a more glitzy troupe nightclub type outfit with black velvet straight skirts with one slit.
Anyway, the director is now interestingly enough on a mission for all dancers to wear substantial coin belly drapes with the tribal look which goes with that look anyway. I would prefer that to body stockings which make me feel too "hot", however lovely they are.

The bottom line is that the director does need to find costuming that is flattering for everyone and make it a requirement that all the components are worn and belts pinned that's the basic problem with this one dancer as we've discussed. We are looking into getting different big skirts and what will be nice is that the "body issues" will be addressed without singling any one person out because we are all going to be wearing belly drape/coinage.