Thread: Teacher dilemma

I've been spending a lot of time here reading, checking out various links, and in various ways, learning as much as I can about belly dance, as much as one can do so through reading.

I have decided that, for the most part, I think my teacher is a good teacher. We've been doing a lot of choreography, but that's partly because I started the class later than the other students. Today, for example, she did a really good job of explaining some moves that I've had troubles with, and I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere!

But, I've only been taking classes for about a month - maybe a couple weeks over that. Today, she was describing different styles of belly dance, and she talked about the hip-figure-eight movement, saying that Cabaret styles call it a maia, but that tribal calls it taqsim. She then said she didn't know why they used two different words for the same movement.

To return to my first paragraph, I've been reading a lot, and so I've learned that taqsim isn't actually a movement, but a solo (and that it means "solo" in Arabic). But she was the teacher, and I wasn't sure what to say. Being shyer in person than I am online was also a factor, probably the largest factor. She's also fairly dismissive of non-tribal style (she said tribal was more difficult). Should I have said something to her even though I've only been a student of hers for a little over a month?

I almost wish I'd already studied the Arabic language, so I could have simply said, "Oh, that means "solo" in Arabic: is this movement usually a solo one?"

Any ideas? I really do like her, but I also believe that incorrect information shouldn't be taught as if it's correct. I don't want to overstep my bounds with her.

I should also note that there were two people in the class who were completely new to belly dance, and this was one of the reasons for the various explanations.

Originally Posted by Varuza

I've been spending a lot of time here reading, checking out various links, and in various ways, learning as much as I can about belly dance, as much as one can do so through reading.

I have decided that, for the most part, I think my teacher is a good teacher. We've been doing a lot of choreography, but that's partly because I started the class later than the other students. Today, for example, she did a really good job of explaining some moves that I've had troubles with, and I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere!

But, I've only been taking classes for about a month - maybe a couple weeks over that. Today, she was describing different styles of belly dance, and she talked about the hip-figure-eight movement, saying that Cabaret styles call it a maia, but that tribal calls it taqsim. She then said she didn't know why they used two different words for the same movement.

To return to my first paragraph, I've been reading a lot, and so I've learned that taqsim isn't actually a movement, but a solo (and that it means "solo" in Arabic). But she was the teacher, and I wasn't sure what to say. Being shyer in person than I am online was also a factor, probably the largest factor. She's also fairly dismissive of non-tribal style (she said tribal was more difficult). Should I have said something to her even though I've only been a student of hers for a little over a month?

I almost wish I'd already studied the Arabic language, so I could have simply said, "Oh, that means "solo" in Arabic: is this movement usually a solo one?"

Any ideas? I really do like her, but I also believe that incorrect information shouldn't be taught as if it's correct. I don't want to overstep my bounds with her.

I should also note that there were two people in the class who were completely new to belly dance, and this was one of the reasons for the various explanations.

Isn't the use of taqsim for maia a Carolena coinage? I am also not sure why different words are used. So in tribal taqsim is really a move, even if it is a stupidly confusing choice for a name. Maybe you could mention the alternate meanings for taqsim if it comes up again, but your teacher is not going to change her word usage, because it part of Tribal dance.

And as a Cabaret style dancer, I am finding parts of Tribal dance to be much more difficult (the arms). But maybe if I had started in Tribal, I'd be having problems learning Cabaret arms?

Since when has more difficult been the same as better. People often assume and teach that egyptian is basic and that tribal took all the best bits of it and added even more exciting bits and that it is therefore by definition better.

Learning good egyptian styling could take you years, but it is essntially a solo dance at that level. At some stage if you know what you want, and you get the opportunity, you can choose what you want to do. Many people don't want to go solo, or find that tribal is what they really want to do. My objection is the number of teachers who are dismissive of other styles than their own

You are already reading widely. Log on to Youtube, either following suggested links here, or by finding adncer that you admire and then see if you want to subscribe to that persons channel to see more to educate yourself in the visuals of dance style. I do that far too regularly.

Well, there are always 100 different views on everything. I notice that teachers who travel a lot say something along the lines of "there is no right way, no wrong way - but I am teaching you my way today, learn it, then take it & make it your own". I think you have to accept that your teacher will be teaching her way, and her view on the dance.

Originally Posted by Varuza

I almost wish I'd already studied the Arabic language, so I could have simply said, "Oh, that means "solo" in Arabic: is this movement usually a solo one?"

Any ideas? I really do like her, but I also believe that incorrect information shouldn't be taught as if it's correct. I don't want to overstep my bounds with her.

You're both right. Tribal does call that move a taxism, it gets called a maia in cabaret as well as a bunch of many other terms. You're right in thinking Taqsim is also the word for an instrument solo (althought it's also coming to mean any slow portion of music for some people)

Before you start off on the wrong foot "correcting" your teacher your first month of class, realize that your reading about dance online is JUST as likely to bring you to miss-information and conflicting reports as it is well thought out information.

No, no... I didn't mean that difficult was better: it was the way she worded it (about being more difficult, and also the way she described the different arm movements from each style - it was definitely negative towards what she called cabaret style (I haven't figured out what to call everything yet)) that made me wonder, but you're right: people in different forms *may* have negative opinions about the forms they aren't interested in. As for taqsim, I didn't know that: I've seen other teachers criticized for using the word "taqsim" to describe a movement. And, I suppose I'm somewhat of a linguist purist, since most of my study has been with languages, not dance (although unfortunately, not Arabic).

So far, it seems the consensus is that I was wrong to worry about this, so I will stop worrying! I didn't mean to suggest that I didn't want to learn from her. I was mainly wondering if I should have said what I thought I happened to know (from other sources, particularly language-wise). Apparently, I didn't know what I thought I knew, which is good for my own learning. And to be honest, I'm rather glad I shouldn't have said anything. Makes me feel less like a coward ;)

I didn't think that you meant that I was ranting at the teacher. I feel that the majority of new dancers are handed a set of prejudices belonging to their teacher, which they may have got from their teacher and so on.

Teachers should encourage students to appreciate good dancing, and what makes it good in any style

.....

maya (downward vertical figure of eight) is a tribal term...call a downward figure of eight to an Egyptian trained dancer over her and she'd go...What!!!
Taqsim does refer to solo twiddly bit or even longer bit of dance or instrumental piece say accordian ( sorry to be so technical hehehe) but also to a tribal move.

pS Yeh agreed don't go correcting teacher( we get very very irritated even when we are wrong) but you could ask her about things after class.

maya (downward vertical figure of eight) is a tribal term...call a downward figure of eight to an Egyptian trained dancer over her and she'd go...What!!!

Maya is a *Salimpour* term. I've been doing mayas since before anybody in NZ knew what tribal was.

I'd say it's likely that this teacher is a tribal-only teacher and if you are doing tribal, then you stick with what tribal says. *Some* tribal teachers have no interest in ME dance, are openly prejudiced against "cabaret" and wouldn't care if taqsim meant cold water tap in Arabic. Others are much more open. It's good that you are getting the wider knowledge, but it's not appropriate to correct a teacher in class, or to teach in that teacher's class.

Whenever a teacher is really down on another style, it usually has something to do with their personal insecurity. Just saying.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Maya is a *Salimpour* term. I've been doing mayas since before anybody in NZ knew what tribal was.

I'd say it's likely that this teacher is a tribal-only teacher and if you are doing tribal, then you stick with what tribal says. *Some* tribal teachers have no interest in ME dance, are openly prejudiced against "cabaret" and wouldn't care if taqsim meant cold water tap in Arabic. Others are much more open. It's good that you are getting the wider knowledge, but it's not appropriate to correct a teacher in class, or to teach in that teacher's class.

Whenever a teacher is really down on another style, it usually has something to do with their personal insecurity. Just saying.

Right American but not necessarily tribal ..I see..

Good for you! I'm so glad you are taking the initiative to learn as much as you can about this style of dance. As mentioned previously, there are many different names for the same movements, just as there are many different theories about its origin, music, etc. Taksim is spelled a mariad of different ways and it translates as a division or partition in Arabic, not solo. You can draw the reference that it is a solo...

You'll find the teacher best suited to your needs - in the meantime, remember that your first teacher opened the door for you to experience this amazing art and deserves at least that respect.

Best of luck in dance,

Sabra*

I have learnt it from a woman who lived in Morocco for 7 years, Judit Joos, who teaches tribal, that calling maias a taksim is really correct terminology, they call it that way. and I think they dance it a bit differently but I am not really into tribal.

Setanta, vertical 8s are the kind of moves that often fit nicely *into* a taqsim, so the chances are high that someone referred to what someone was doing, which was a maia, as being a taqsim-type movement. In my experience people in the ME/NA don't actually name many of their steps/movements, they just do them, because the dance is informally learned.

Just to make it particularly complex, it was my understanding that taqsim in tribal referred to an upward 8, not a downward one - they call that one maia, I thought.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Setanta, vertical 8s are the kind of moves that often fit nicely *into* a taqsim, so the chances are high that someone referred to what someone was doing, which was a maia, as being a taqsim-type movement. In my experience people in the ME/NA don't actually name many of their steps/movements, they just do them, because the dance is informally learned.

I agree with Zumarrad....

No, I don't think you ever correct your teacher in class. It's disrespectful. However, if you have questions or concerns about what she has said or is doing, I'm sure she would welcome a discussion about it after class in private.

As for the term "cabaret", that's not exactly an accurate term either. It's a pet peeve of mine because I feel it cheapens our dance. In my understanding, the ladies dancing in the cabarets in Egypt are very rarely respectable gals. So for most of us, I think the term "oriental dance" or "raks sharki"... is more accurate. Others may not agree with me on this, but it goes to show that there are a slew of terms out there for much of what we do... a lot of it, neither right or wrong.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Just to make it particularly complex, it was my understanding that taqsim in tribal referred to an upward 8, not a downward one - they call that one maia, I thought.

That's how my tribal instructor uses the terms. Maia - downwards fig 8, Taqsim - upwards fig 8.

Both my tribal and my Egyptian/cab/whatever term one likes instructor also use Taqsim to refer to slow movements, usually performed during an instrumental solo.

But, anyway (to the OP), I've learned that there's no point getting too attached to specific terms for specific movements--that different instructors sometimes use different terminology. So, I just go with the flow and enjoy what different instructors have to offer.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Just to make it particularly complex, it was my understanding that taqsim in tribal referred to an upward 8, not a downward one - they call that one maia, I thought.

I began/continue to learn primarily as an Egyptian raqs sharqi student, but when I had a "taste" of Tribal this past weekend in a mini-lesson with the wonderful Christina King, the above is how she explained those specific moves to us. I really appreciated that she was very all-inclusive in describing the styles/movements and variations thereof, did a short comparison of Tribal and "Oriental Dance", and she was very astute to note that in her opinion Oriental Dance and Tribal seemed to be "difficult" for any given student to learn dependent upon which style you learned first (made sense to me:)). She did also mention that the terminology is so vast b/c of the non-codification of the Dance. Chris is so knowledgeable and really took the time to explain things (clearly and concisely) as she demonstrated moves. I think I will definitely sign up for her Tribal Style for the Oriental Dancer workshop! OK, sorry to digress; just that I'm an even bigger Christina King fan now...

I agree with what the other bhuzzers have said. I think the bottom line is that because our art form is not codified & there is no uniformity of names for a lot of moves (hip bump/hip pop), teachers are going to pass on the knowledge as they were taught or maybe even how they name things themselves...it prolly gets even more complex if the styles are different, like Oriental Dance and Tribal (e.g., Downward or Reverse Vertical Figure 8 OR Maya, respectively). So NO, definitely do not correct your teacher--trust that she is in the position she is in because she knows what she is teaching (your teacher was good enough to give you an overview of the different styles and give an example of the different names for a particular move within two of those styles). It's also good to keep an open mind that there are even different spellings for certain things within the dance, e.g., maya/maia, raks sharki/raqs sharqi, taksim/taqseem/taxim. Man, IF I only had the time, I think it would be really interesting to put into a spread sheet the different terms/names (maybe even the different spellings:)) for certain moves from different teachers from whom I've taken. Hehehe...

Yes, I definitely was unclear. I did not mean to suggest that I should have, in some way, corrected her *in class*. In fact, that was the very reason I was posting. I also think my original post came off a *lot* more arrogant than I intended. I hadn't meant for it to come of as arrogant at all, but looking at it more objectively, I see that it does. My main concern (originally) was to find out:

1. Whether I should have said anything at all, and
2. If so, how to do it in a respectful manner.

Having read the rest of the replies, I see I definitely shouldn't have said anything, since I was wrong. But - in the future - if I receive conflicting information on a different topic, how do I learn the truth? Do I just assume everyone is right, even if they're criticising each other and saying they're wrong (which is what happened in this case)? Do I ask the teacher or bring it up to her in some way - and if so, how do I do it in a respectful manner? I could always keep posting here every time something comes up, but that seems a little overboard. And what happens if I find out the teacher *is* wrong about something? Or is nothing ever really wrong (I'm so confused, since that's what I had originally thought, but was told/convinced that there are right and wrong things, due to the fact that we are dealing with another culture - aside from just incorrect movements). To be honest, although I feel really stupid about the manner of my post, I'm really glad I was wrong, since it means I don't have to deal with any of that.

However, this discussion has become really interesting! I honestly had no idea there were so many different terms for these things! For point of reference, she calls them taxem and reverse taxem.

What's really confusing about all of this is that I've read somewhere that a maia is a vertical figure 8, which to me, would look exactly like the number (as opposed to a horizontal figure 8, which would be the number on its side) and would have to involve the rib cage/chest/shoulders in some way. Maybe vertical in this situation simply means starting up?

Originally Posted by Varuza

What's really confusing about all of this is that I've read somewhere that a maia is a vertical figure 8, which to me, would look exactly like the number (as opposed to a horizontal figure 8, which would be the number on its side) and would have to involve the rib cage/chest/shoulders in some way. Maybe vertical in this situation simply means starting up?

Vertical plane as opposed to horizontal plane.

It's funny how some moves have so many different names. I was never sure which one was being referred to with the term "maia" so I call them vertical eights, either up and over or down and out. Or even "vertical eights....this way" if I'm in a hurry

Just to add to the confusion, I've also heard figure-8s referred to as "infinity loops." I guess this makes sense from a visual standpoint since the infinity symbol does look like a figure-8 that fell down on its side.

A bit like this:
∞

Originally Posted by jaded

Just to add to the confusion, I've also heard figure-8s referred to as "infinity loops." I guess this makes sense from a visual standpoint since the infinity symbol does look like a figure-8 that fell down on its side.

A bit like this:
∞

Oh, yeah! Me, too--I've heard this, too! One more for the spreadsheet...


Thanks for such an interesting topic, Varuza! BTW--I think it would be totally fine and respectful, actually, to keep open communication with your teacher during a water-break during, after class, or, if she has another after your class & you have it, Email her at another time :) I would think your teacher would really appreciate knowing that you're being proactive and learning as much as you can from other sources, i.e., printed literature, online, as well as from her classes. She might even bring up the discussion at your next class to open/share w/the whole class. I've done this myself with my wonderful teachers:)) I also know a number of teachers that don't like it when students are "silent", if they don't ask questions, interact w/the teacher, etc.

Originally Posted by jaded

Just to add to the confusion, I've also heard figure-8s referred to as "infinity loops." I guess this makes sense from a visual standpoint since the infinity symbol does look like a figure-8 that fell down on its side.

A bit like this:
∞

yup

..g.:

Deborah

Varuza, I absolutely love your quest for knowledge and the fact that you're asking so many questions early on. I'm glad too that you refrained from "correcting" the instructor in class since, at 4 weeks of study, that may have been a bit premature, in addition to disrespectful ;) though I know your intention would have been merely to clarify, not offend. You did the right thing posting on Bhuz--this site is an awesome resource.

Looking at the study of dance from the viewpoint of linguistics presents some challenges, as it may seem to contradict the movement you're seeing, but I think its advantages are greater--your linguistic study will lend a wonderful depth to your study of Middle Eastern dance. Just allow that language, like dance, like anything really, is fluid and ever-changing, so it may be easier to release concepts of "correct" or "incorrect."

My original dance background is in ballet, which has been codified in the extreme--a fact that's pretty helpful when crossing cultures, sharing information, etc. But even within ballet there's different styles, e.g. "Balanchine" arms v. "classical" even though it's the same "second position".

Regarding correct v. incorrect, it's like the question of authenticity... It is by its nature unanswerable. Who is to say what is correct or not? What is the "real" dance, and where it "really" came from? Who bestows the badge of authenticity?

That said, there are elements characteristic of each style, less a question of correctness as a question of definition. These defining movements include movements, how similar movements are performed across styles, costume choices, music choices... it's really profound how diverse and rich this dance form is. Would we all be here it if weren't? ;P

The one correct v. incorrect that is critical, is whether a move is being taught in a way that's safe for the body or not. Safety first! Or as Maleeha puts it, "I want to be the most popular girl at the old folks' home!" I want to be able to dance until I take my last breath! I bear that in mind in my own practice and in how I present the dance to my students.

Good luck on your journey!! You are in for a fantastic trip :D

Originally Posted by jaded

Just to add to the confusion, I've also heard figure-8s referred to as "infinity loops." I guess this makes sense from a visual standpoint since the infinity symbol does look like a figure-8 that fell down on its side.

A bit like this:
∞

Yes, the reason some dancers prefer the term "infinity loop" is that it spans all writing systems, whereas in some languages the number eight is not represented as a little circle stacked on top of a big circle (ie, 8) the way it is in ours.

For example, in the Arabic language, the notation for the number eight resembles an upside-down V. Because of this, the dancer Morocco once said, "If you ask an Egyptian to do a figure 8, they'll probably stand like this: (and then she stood in a straddle position).

I know that Neon uses the term "Infinity Loop" on her videos. Maybe it's because she's Russian. I don't know how the Cyrillic alphabet (ie, Russian language's alphabet) writes the number eight, but maybe that's a factor for her too?

I kind of like the term "infinity loop", myself. I still say "figure 8" out of habit when I teach, but I like "infinity loop" for several reasons.

I have problems with the name game, because I have had a bunch of different teachers. There is really no codification among the naming.. When someone calls something, for instance, an "Egyptian 1", I have no idea what it is until they demonstrate it. I then ask, to make sure I caught all the points in the move.

Because I enjoy learning, I also may ask if it's a difference between tribal and cabaret names. My teachers in the past have been great about sharing that.

Perhaps if you're unsure, brooch things like that? I have never once done that to correct a teacher, though. I've been pretty lucky overall; my teachers are really on the ball when it comes to this dance

Do I just assume everyone is right, even if they're criticising each other and saying they're wrong (which is what happened in this case)?

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying that your teacher was putting down other teachers for using different terminology?

See, I would have a problem with that. I don't care that one teacher uses a different term than another teacher or has a different method of explaining a move or whatever. Some teachers are more structured, while others are more spontaneous. Some students click with certain teachers better than they click with other teachers, for whatever reason. I think most teachers have something to offer, though, and I'm happy to learn as much as I can from as many people as I can, and I don't expect a teacher to be perfect or to be all things to all students.

But when a teacher criticizes other instructors or puts them down, or when a teacher discusses a student with other students, those are two things that make me lose respect for the teacher. If it were me, I'd probably look for a different teacher at the end of the session.

Back to the original discussion about Mayas/Taxims/figure 8s. And I'm pulling out some dusty, early 80 knowledge, here ,r:;

Taxim does indeed mean "solo" as in solo instrument. And, back when many of us performed to live bands, it meant that part of the song when the non drum insturments took over, which gave rise to the "rhythmless taxim" such as oud, ney, saz, etc.

In those places and times where there weren't live bands and most folk performed to "canned" music, the concept of a solo improv kind of died. And what took its place was the "taxim" as a concept of the slow, creamy, dreamy part of the dance. Hence, standing and floor taxim sections.

Does that help?

Now, the downward hip movement with slide: I was taught it as a "bicycle" because that's how it feels. Later Orienale teachers taught it as a Maia-apparently after a dancer that did them a lot. Figure 8 down is a nice descriptive term, and I use it a lot.

Kitty

Having read the rest of the replies, I see I definitely shouldn't have said anything, since I was wrong. But - in the future - if I receive conflicting information on a different topic, how do I learn the truth? Do I just assume everyone is right, even if they're criticising each other and saying they're wrong (which is what happened in this case)? Do I ask the teacher or bring it up to her in some way - and if so, how do I do it in a respectful manner?

OK, what you do is, either during or after class, whenever is most appropriate, you go "Teacher, I've heard/read on the internet that X is blahblah. Can you tell me more/is that right/do you think blah." But it's still risky in the extreme because it can be read as (and indeed, can actually BE) you passive-aggressively undermining the teacher by pointing out stuff you think they don't know, and that they actually might not know. A lot depends on circumstances, the teacher in question and your skills at gauging when's the right time to ask in front of the class. Otherwise, after class is probably good, if she's not busy.

But you have to remember that not every teacher knows every thing, but all teachers believe themselves as a rule.

[QUOTE=zumarrad;162806

But you have to remember that not every teacher knows every thing, but all teachers believe themselves as a rule.[/QUOTE]

I would say this applies to all people, not just teachers.