Thread: What is a Professional?

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

HAHAHAHA! Olympic Level is brilliant. When I'm not practicing or taking workshops, I'm at the gym, training. Or otherwise working on costumes. All while running on maximum energy levels after a long day at work and commuting to work.

If "professional" is off-limits, I think we need to claim "Olympic Level" as our own. I like the sound of it, better :-P

Yes, think how great that would look on a business card! "Olympic-Level Bellydancer" Yippee!!..g.:

since someone mentioned me (waves at charlotte),

well. i am a "professional dancer". i get paid to perform and teach. and i like to think of myself as professional in the non literal sense as well, as in that i behave, look, and dance in a professional manner

the fact that i also earn money with another job has little to do with that. i just have "two" jobs.

i get really annoyed at so called "not" being a professional in the eyes of others because i also have a day job. that does not make dance my hobby ir make me less committed. i live and breath dance; i get up with it and go to bed with it and am 300% commited. it comes before anything else really. ha, in that sense, yes, maybe that's more being an "artist" than being a pro dancer.

but, i quite simply have two jobs. just like other professional dancers are also vendors to make ends meet (that's another job than dancing - and even the Big Names sell merchandise to double their income), or sponsors/event organisers, or run studios (where also other classes are held and you do admin for it)... so those are sources of income other than dancing/teaching/performing as well! i choose to make ends meet by writing academic articles as well as teaching and performing. cause i'm better at writing academic articles than i would be as a vendor.

i have contemplated giving up my day job for most of the last year (yes no yes no). i have deciced that i can earn a decent living from teaching full time, and i would need to teach 10-12 classes. well, i decided i'd rather keep my day job as that is way more easy to combine with the international work i'm starting to get, and the loads of gigs i'm doing lately, than running 12 classes a week would be. giving up my day job to run a full time dance school would mainly mean more admin. not more dancing. i can do more dancing when i keep my "other" job!


when i was still studying, dance was my only income (next to my students grant/my parents sponsoring). so i was professional then? and then suddenly would not be anymore cause i started getting paid for my research. i was unemployed for a few months last year and so then dance was my only income. was i more professional those months than when i managed landing a new research grant?


on the other hand. none of this really matters. what matter is: getting hired, doing a good job, getting paid for it and hopefully in the process make other people happy as well as myself ;-). the fact that it's not the only way i pay my bills... i think the people who hire me mostly dont care about that. they want a professional job done,



and come to think of it, i dont think of either dance, nor the academic work in terms of "how i pay the bills". both of them really are just me, what i'm good at and want to do with my time/life... the payment is nice and necessary, but for neither job the main reason i do it...

Originally Posted by zumarrad

My personal view is that you are a professional belly dancer if the majority of your income comes directly from your work as a belly dancer. Anyone else is a paid hobbyist, no matter how good they are.

So, until recently Dr Mo Geddawi was not a professional dancer/teacher/choreographer because his main income was from his medical profession?

Good point. I tend to take a rather professional view of professional; if it's your profession, you're a professional. But obviously it's different in the arts.

Originally Posted by CFerhat

One can also make the distinction between full-time and part-time professionals. A dentist who chooses to work 20 hours instead of 40 hours a week is still a professional. The training, services, code of ethics etc. remain the same, but the actual amount of time spent "performing," and the associated renumeration would be lower.

You're so smart . . .

Deborah

It's surprising to me how volatile this subject is, due to my involvement with writing forums where no one really cares. Everyone is assumed to be a serious writer. Then, there are published writers (who, obviously, have had something published). And professional, full-time writers (of which there are very, very few, since it doesn't pay). No one seems to care about these distinctions, but here, everyone cares. I really did not mean, in my post, to make anyone feel bad.

And it's not "the arts" that is the issue, unless writing fiction isn't an art...

*confused, and feeling somewhat bad*

Artemisia. I agree with you - you have two jobs. Your time is split roughly 50/50. Your commitment to each is equal (or maybe slanted towards bellydance)

But how about if you were working full time as an academic and teaching two bellydancing classes a week or doing a regular Saturday restaurant gig? In that case your primary profession is clearly your day job.

For example, if I broke my leg I would be completely without income until it mended. People with full time day jobs (unless they are physical jobs) would still be able to pay the mortgage.

Also, I don't think the argument about vending is the same - in the case of dancers/teachers who vend or promote workshops, they are still making their living out of bellydance. Just as when I was running a public relations company I was a marketing consultant, a corporate identity developer, a manager, a saleswoman, an office administrator, an accounts clerk, and a damn photocopier repairer as well as actually writing press releases. But I was still working in public relations

But I must say, I think the term hobbyist is completely derogatory. I would never use it.

since i decided to keep the "day job", i think it's just important for me personally and psychologicall to define myself as a professional dancer. i've only recently really started doing so. i had some arguments with a choreographer lately about my level of commitmment not being enough cause i had my academic job still. it's hard to explain to people that my academic job is a commitment too. i dont keep it just for the money. i keep it because i'm good at it. though i'm pretty sure i'll chuck it one day. right now i'm thinking of making my academic job "self employed" too. and to start freelancing once this current contract ends. i wouldnt mind writing a few books about women's work in belgium, without being connected to an institute that requires me to me there at certain times. Ha, maybe dance is my profession and academic are my "hobby"!!!

if someone however would refer to dancing as my "hobby", that's when i want to get mad ;-). i almost jelled at a journalist a while ago because of it. they wanted me on their tv show to present my "fun hobby". i said well lady, it's not my hobby, it's my profession and having ME at your show will cost X. ha!

Artemisia--I tried to pm you..did you know your mailbox is full?

Originally Posted by Varuza

It's surprising to me how volatile this subject is, due to my involvement with writing forums where no one really cares. Everyone is assumed to be a serious writer. Then, there are published writers (who, obviously, have had something published). And professional, full-time writers (of which there are very, very few, since it doesn't pay). No one seems to care about these distinctions, but here, everyone cares. I really did not mean, in my post, to make anyone feel bad.

And it's not "the arts" that is the issue, unless writing fiction isn't an art...

*confused, and feeling somewhat bad*

I think the sensitivity is because many people struggle to be taken seriously for being belly dancers of any variety. Since I'm not a professional in any sense of these definitions, I can't say for certain, but I think saying someone isn't a professional may imply to others that they don't take the dance seriously.

It's sort of like how people make the distinction between being a belly dancer and taking belly dance. How do you know whether you are a dancer or simply someone who takes classes?

well, while i don't think 'hobbyist' is necessarily pejorative, it does or can be perceived as trivializing one's commitment if one puts alot of time, money, education, passion, energy and heart into an art they've made into a potentially lucrative business.............

i too, hold a day job, out of security, tho i DO like my job a great deal, and the people i work with, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.....many of my colleagues do the same.....these are talented and committed dancers....professional in every sense, so tho some are scientists, lawyers, admins, and IT's, they're still professional dancers for the committment and ethics they present for the compensation they get

my soapbox moment, nothing personal here, just me humble opinion :D

I'm very much interested in this issue but am crashing on deadline for my other job -- the one I hope and believe doesn't preclude me from calling myself a professional dancer if I have all my other ducks in a row.

I agree completely with Ruta and Artemisia and thank them for writing my thoughts up so nicely. Other job has used up all of my coherent language for the day....

Aargh, can't help myself:

I am probably in the minority here, but I really don't like the term "semi-professional." Its use was encouraged by some in my area for a while (maybe still is) to connote a level above the "mere hobbyist," describing dancers who did professional-level shows, normally for professional rates, but didn't perform as much as those who called themselves "professionals." Possibly that's a useful distinction in theory, but in an area where the overwhelming majority of "professionals" also have other jobs so aren't defining their "professional" status by having dance performance and teaching as their primary source of income -- and this includes many of the very best, most experienced and committed dancers -- where's the real line between "semi-pros" and "pros?"

Around here, in practice, the distinction often seemed to be: "I am a professional because I do an average of n shows per month. You are a semi-professional because you do n-1." Turned me off right quick, that. I like my labels meaningful, and as used locally, that one wasn't. Your mileage may vary, of course.

hmm, under that distinction, i wonder

i've lost gigs, got them, walked away from another (actually a blessing now as i want to devote more time to studying more aggressively, so i'm not seeking anymore)

so, if i don't do x amount of restaurant shows now, when i'd been doing so much more before, and focusing more on private gigs and my education, does this mean i go from pro to semi simply cuz i don't feel like filling up my 'dance card' with more restaurant gigs? even tho i teach on a weekly basis?

again, not feeling personal here, just trying to figure out the process in some areas...........

See? That's exactly the problem, as I see it. It's just too fuzzy a term. You're still the same dancer with exactly the same level of professionalism -- you're just prioritizing your time differently.

I tend to do many more private gigs than restaurant gigs for reasons that will be apparent to those of you who are familiar with my physique and what the majority of restaurant owners are looking for. I was recently told that not having a regular restaurant gig made me a "semi-professional," even though -- if it's a question of earnings -- I'm damned sure the person who described me as such made half as much (at most) at her restaurant shows last month as I did at my weddings, bridal showers, engagement party, and bat mitzvah. It's just not a useful yardstick.

ETA: IMO, cutting back on gigging and/or teaching to invest more time in your dance education can only increase your level of professionalism, not take it down a notch. Sez me, anyway...a person who's currently doing the same thing. ..g.:

(I suppose this is a tangent? Sorry!)

I do understand and appreciate the way those of you who have full time jobs and also dance professionally feel. And I was in exactly the same situation as you when I was working full time in public relations and singing as my 'other career' I was a complete professional in everything I did in my singing career:

I paid a LOT of money for singing lessons - far more than most bellydancers do. Singing lessons are always privates - never classes; typically £75 an hour. Singers take a minimum of a private every week, plus regular coaching such as leider, opera or language coaching. I did daily practise, regular summer schools and competitions and my performance clothing wasn't quite as expensive as bellydance costumes, but it certainly wasn't cheap.

I did regular paid gigs - weddings, funerals, choral solo work, recitals etc but like all singers in my position, I never called myself a professional singer - always a semi-professional. Or I would say I sing professionally. I think there's a difference.

And I recognised the big difference between me and those singers trying to make it as full time professionals. They may have been no more 'professional' in their approach to their art than I was, but they did make a much bigger commitment.

I also worked for several years full time and then part time, when I was building up my bellydancing career. And believe me, once I gave that job up, things felt very, very different. It is a whole new ball game now that I am a full time pro dancer/teacher, than when I was dancing and teaching, but with the security of a day job.

So I've been in both situations (as a singer and as a dancer) and believe me, full time pro is a heck of a lot different from part time dancer/singer, no matter how professional you are.

But of course, someone like Artemisia who is splitting her time equally between two careers is different again...

Blimey, I must try to type quicker! Threes posts appeared above while I was composing this one - to refer to them... I don't think it matters whether you are dancing in a restaurant, or for private gigs. It's down to whether you are involved in any other profession than bellydance: performing, teaching, vending, promoting, or whatever.

oh, no doubt.....full time commitment is HUGE, and can both be rewarding, and very, very stressful, knowing brave souls who do it......

perhaps someday, but at this point in my development, i can't afford to go full time quite yet, but i admire and respect those who do.......it IS a different ball of wax...........and my hat is off and glass is up in salute to every full timer!

I was gone for the weekend and am trying to catch up on this thread now. While I've only breifly skimmed most of the comments, here is my two cents.

A "professional" is anyone who gets paid. Period. It does not require a certain level of skill, dedication, whatever.

Olympic figure skaters are "amateurs" because they compete and do not get paid. When they are done with their Olympic dreams, they "go pro" and join the Ice Capades or Stars on Ice, or some equally mind-numbing traveling show. Does their training schedule greatly diminish once they do this? You bet. Do they get a little older, a little more out of shape, a little less "on their game" the farther away they get from their days of competition? Yep, they do.

But then they were amateurs and now they are pros. Why? Because now they get paid.

When I had a full-time day job, I still considered myself a professional dancer, although I considered myself a full-time IT geek and a part-time professional dancer. I take the dance seriously; I take classes weekly with two fantastic teachers, gig on the weekends, and travel frequently for workshops, I am ethical, don't undercut, etc. Right now, since I am not working during the day, I still consider myself a part-time professional dancer, and an IT geek on hiatus. I think the term professional has a much deeper meaning than just getting paid.

amen, damiena

Originally Posted by damiena

I think the term professional has a much deeper meaning than just getting paid.

It might have a deeper meaning *to us* because we genuinely care about and have a passion for what we do - but on the bare bones of it, anyone who gets paid can call themselves a professional whatever, regardless of their passion, interest, or skill level.

Thank you to everyone who has commented, and I hope to hear more! This has been very fascinating. So, do you all think that beginning students should be given sort of a "caveat emptor" prior to selecting a teacher...how does the dance community promote high standards among it's professionals, etc..?

It seems that if the term "professional" is defined in such a way that it carries no value judgement in and of itself, that students/others who have never seen the art form should be made aware that "professional" does not imply "top of the line"...does that make sense? I'm speaking from experience with disappointment in past teachers, as well as from observations, and out of genuine curiosity and a desire to report in my magazine from as objective a point of view as possible.

Thanks!!

PS... I found this article & would like to hear what ya'll think about this definition of what makes a professional bellydancer.

WHAT IS A PROFESSIONAL DANCER

I tend to disagree with that article - I don't think any of those things are "necessary" to make one a professional. Those are all wonderful qualities to have and wonderful ways to act to carry yourself "professionally" as a dancer, but they do not make you a professional. They make you a stellar professional that others in your community should look up to, but they are not requirments for professional status.

I think that's a fantastic article and I agree with every aspect of it. Very to the point and realistic.

Edited to add: Daniela, though I agree with the article (and that it says 95% or more of these things are required in a professional), I do think you're correct that one can be considered professional without having all of these requirements. I don't think that should be recommended or that it's a good thing, but it does happen.

Originally Posted by CFerhat

One can also make the distinction between full-time and part-time professionals. A dentist who chooses to work 20 hours instead of 40 hours a week is still a professional.

Exactly what I was thinking. In my opinion, anyone who is compensated at a professional rate, which, at a minimum, would be a living wage for hours worked plus business expenses, for their work in any field is a professional in that field. Beyond that, we can talk about full-time vs. part-time professionals or good vs. bad professionals.

To me, a semi-professional is someone who is paid a professional wage for only some of the dance work that they do, whereas a professional is paid a professional wage for most or all of the dance work they do. So, someone who, in five performances, gets paid for two (e.g. birthday parties) and does three for free (e.g. community events, school shows) would be a semi-professional.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Are you a professional if you have one paid gig? Are you a professional if you have a steady gig, even if you've only danced 2 years? Are you a professional if you are a teacher (good or bad)? Are you a professional if you have studied for 10 years with master teachers but never perform for pay?

That old chestnut.

I do remember reading an online article which stated something like "just because you get paid, it doesn't make you a professional".

Certainly dance skill would be part of the criteria. There are dancers that get paid gig who have only basic dance reportire.

But I think it also comes down to commitment and people skills as well. For example being able to stick with terms of agreement in a contract, appropriately dealing with customers, grooming, showing up on time and being reliable. Basically treating it like a professional job and not just a hobby that you can shelve when it gets to hard.

I think a professional teacher has greater responsibilities than just being a performer because they are in the care and guidance of mulitple students with differing personalities.

Is there a common standard of what makes a professional in all fields, or are we willing to say that there's a different standard in bellydance?

I'm a teacher by day and it's actually getting to the point that I can make more as a dancer. I work in a Catholic school where they pay us FAR less than public school teachers get paid. I do not know any other teachers here who are able to support themselves on what we make - in fact, everyone has a roommate or spouse to help. Some of us are not certified by the state - you don't have to be in private schools. We are essentially turned loose in the classroom with little to no regulation of our day to day activities. How do the standards of professionalism apply here?

I think we have a lot of the same problems in my school that bellydance does, but I would never call any of my colleagues hobbyists. I would however, call some of them teachers who need more education or who need guidance and I would even go so far as to say that some of us are terrible teachers. So now I'm trying to decide if I should apply that same thinking to bellydance or not. At the end of the day, who gets to decide - the people working or the people hiring? Any thoughts?

The "professions" include such work as doctoring and lawyering, right? Those are the first two that come to mind, but there has to be at least a couple of others, yes? If there are others, what are some of the other "professions," as commonly understood?

I'm asking because I'm having a thought that needs some fleshing out, and it might help to have a couple more examples to get me where I'm trying to go.

Thanks!

Deborah

All sounds like a new way for dancers to put each other down!!! Horay!

It's a new type I've snobbery I've starting noticing hints of towards me in the last few months. I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact that I also make a living developing cancer drugs.

Z