Thread: What is a Professional?

I have been dancing for about 12 years. I did do gigs every week in a local restaraunt my area,private parties etc.(years back) And kept my day job. But when it came down to it. I did try the pro route. But after 2 years I rather be a hobbist dancer. It wasn't my cup of tea.Could I do the pro thing again well yes, do I chose not to. I happen to get paid better at my day job. It I love bellydance and spend more on workshops and privates. (my costume closet is lacking because i put more money in classes than costumes) I prefer to be called a hobbist dancer because to me it is what is.

Alrana

Originally Posted by zafirah

All sounds like a new way for dancers to put each other down!!! Horay!

It's a new type I've snobbery I've starting noticing hints of towards me in the last few months. I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact that I also make a living developing cancer drugs.

Z

I agree with you on this one. Why don't we all just let people call themselves professionals if that's what they want to call themselves...or hobbyist if that's what they want...or a semi-pro...or an olympic bellydancer. I mean, the larger conversation we need to be having is "what constitutes professionalism in belly dance?" It's an important concept no matter what the self-imposed (or externally imposed) label is. The more people who act like professionals (whether or not they actually are) the better...we just have to do more teaching and sharing about how to behave professionally. That's what I believe this thread is about.

For example:
In my workplace it is unprofessional to gossip or spread rumors...
It is also considered unprofessional to wear inappropriate clothing...
Or to show up late to a meeting...
Or to talk about the company in a negative way around others...
All of these things (and more) can be applied to belly dance regardless of your MO.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

For example:
In my workplace it is unprofessional to gossip or spread rumors...
It is also considered unprofessional to wear inappropriate clothing...
Or to show up late to a meeting...
Or to talk about the company in a negative way around others...
All of these things (and more) can be applied to belly dance regardless of your MO.

Yes. Agreed 1,000%.

As I said in a different thread....if you could get sued or fired for it in an office job, it wouldn't be smart to do it in your dance community.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Hi. I'm the editor of an online magazine focusing on bellydance. I've wondered this for years...what actually constitutes a professional in the bellydance world? Are you a professional if you have one paid gig? Are you a professional if you have a steady gig, even if you've only danced 2 years? Are you a professional if you are a teacher (good or bad)? Are you a professional if you have studied for 10 years with master teachers but never perform for pay?

I am curious, and I'd like to publish some of the responses I get in my magazine. I'd love to hear your opinions, and please include whether I can paraphrase or quote you. Thanks!!..c::

hm lets se. I been dancing since 3 naturaly and in training. I started performing professinionaly since 19 going on 26 years in dancing now.. I have danced in small places, big places, small stages big stages, a few people few hundred people. On a theater stage, venue, or restaurant. In a concert, video film. With bands, groups, troupes and solo. I have danced sick, tired , pregnant not pregnant. I have danced in cheap costumes, expensive costumes, self designed costumes. When it was to early, to late, good night, bad night, had to walk in the cold, the mud, the grass. barefeet, in shoes, for little money, lots of money or no money(fund raisers)Been around drunks, straights, gays, singles, couples, young, old ,nice people, bad people, rude people. With tears in my eyes, joy in my eyes, happy, sad and mad I still smiled. Even if I forgotten something ,ripped something or lost something. I still perfomed with a gracious and charming personality, smiled, did my best.and gave it my all. Did my show thanked the person who hired me and remained calm , cool and collected. and never complained in front of anyone in any situation . I respect all other dancers and give everyone a chance even if they do not give it in return. To me this is professional........

Originally Posted by zafirah

All sounds like a new way for dancers to put each other down!!! Z

Hadn't thought of it that way. Then again, maybe you're on to something . . . If BD is all one does for a livelihood, then one is "top of the ladder" in the professional group; if one has a day job or -- heaven forbid -- a source of household income other than oneself, then one is a rung or two lower.

I know we all get hung up on the terminology.

"Professional:" seeks and/or accepts paying work at market rates and (in the case of our beautiful artform) exhibits professionalism. There is a spectrum of ability among professional BDers, just like there is in any group like-employed persons, but the lower end, it is hoped, is populated by folks who know their stuff, but are not a Jillina, Dina, Randa or (insert name of fave dancer here).

"Semi-professional:" like an apprentice; very much in the learning stages of professionalism, but not a complete amateur, in the sense of being a beginning/intermediate student, either. These folks get paid for gigs, but usually a smaller portion of the fee charged by the mentoring dancer. It worked for me like this: I was under my mentor's (mom's) wing like this for about 2-3 years. Mom charged for one dancer and started me out by having me dance just a few minutes and then paying me for gas. As I gained in experience and skill, the amount of time I danced increased, as did my pay, until I was soloing regularly and she'd just take her $5-$10 "agent's fee" for brokering the gig. In short, I guess, someone who is not yet ready to carry a gig on his/her own, but is working to attain the skills and experience necessary to get to that point.

"Hobby-ist:" doesn't gig, but enjoys classes, dancing at festivals, etc. This person might dance for friends and family. There is a spectrum of abilities in this group, just as there are among professionals, but I think the gap is wider among these folks. For example, at one end of the spectrum I can think of a number of folks I know who do not seek paid work but certainly are more than able to accept paid work, exhibit professionalism and do BD proud; at the other end of the hobby-ist spectrum are students who will drop everything to dance for friends and family, but who do not possess the skills to solo outside a student recital. Yet, because all these folks are unpaid, they are all called "hobby-ists." I don't consider the term "hobby-ist" to be perjorative, because I'm aware of the incredible differences among the dancers of this group, but I'm sure some folks use it that way.

And after writing all this, I'm still not able to convey my thoughts completely or accurately! Dang!

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

The "professions" include such work as doctoring and lawyering, right? Those are the first two that come to mind, but there has to be at least a couple of others, yes? If there are others, what are some of the other "professions," as commonly understood?

I'm asking because I'm having a thought that needs some fleshing out, and it might help to have a couple more examples to get me where I'm trying to go.

Thanks!

Deborah

Journalists and teachers consider themselves professionals.

Re dancing/teaching: I would say I consider myself a hobbyist who has danced semi-professionally and who very occasionally still takes professional gigs. I am paid for what I do.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

"Hobby-ist:" doesn't gig, but enjoys classes, dancing at festivals, etc. This person might dance for friends and family. There is a spectrum of abilities in this group, just as there are among professionals, but I think the gap is wider among these folks. For example, at one end of the spectrum I can think of a number of folks I know who do not seek paid work but certainly are more than able to accept paid work, exhibit professionalism and do BD proud; at the other end of the hobby-ist spectrum are students who will drop everything to dance for friends and family, but who do not possess the skills to solo outside a student recital. Yet, because all these folks are unpaid, they are all called "hobby-ists." I don't consider the term "hobby-ist" to be perjorative, because I'm aware of the incredible differences among the dancers of this group, but I'm sure some folks use it that way.

Hobby-ist is fine with me, but I do prefer the term amateur...not in the negative sense of the word. In fact the word is rooted in the latin word to LOVE. Amateurs do it because they love it, even if they don't get paid...,r:;

amateur - Definitions from Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by zafirah

All sounds like a new way for dancers to put each other down!!! Horay!

It's a new type I've snobbery I've starting noticing hints of towards me in the last few months. I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact that I also make a living developing cancer drugs.

Z

*shakes head* Don't take the bad vibes personally. It's not your fault that you're using your intellectual resources to help alleviate the suffering and save the lives of cancer patients and are probably getting paid handsomely to do so while they, most likely, are struggling to achieve fame and fortune on the local scene.

I completely agree with your observation, though. The last thing on earth we need is another excuse for a certain breed of dancers to pooh-pooh those who aren't supreme artistes like themselves. ,r:; ,r:; ,r:; ,r:;

(That was my rendition of my eyeballs rolling back into my head and literally getting stuck.)

Quite apart from the "professional behaviour" discussions, at a technical level this is what my insurance company's definition is:

Earns the bulk of his/her income from the activity - Professional
Earns some of his/her income - Semi Professional
Does not earn from this activity - Amateur

So unless your sole job is MED-related, you would not be a Professional. If you have another job that brings you your main income and any MED-related income is supplemental to this, you are a Semi-Pro. But that's just the insurance company's definition. According to this definition, I'm a professional photographer, and I used to be a semi-professional dancer, and hope to be again one day. But I will never become a professional dancer because it would never pay enough. Not unless I was prepared to spend the bulk of my life travelling, which I'm not. I like the definition because it's clear cut with no grey areas.

Liked the reference to the root of the word "amateur" btw - my old esoteric mentor was very hot on me knowing the etymological roots of common place words and I remember him talking about this word and saying that it was originally split into Amour-Tora (sorry about bad spelling here) - lover of the truth. So yes, Amateur is a great title to have!

Kathy
(just passing by picking up mail, hello to everyone!)

I would however, call some of them teachers who need more education or who need guidance and I would even go so far as to say that some of us are terrible teachers.

Does being a terrible teacher make one not a professional? I know several non-dance teacher who consider themselves professionals yet aren't effective teachers and don't appear to be interested in it. It sucks, but I'd still call them professionals.

Maybe another way to look at it is the difference between a career and a job. A career is your passion, a job is what you do to make ends meet.

Then again, the more I think about it, it's just a label and sometimes, the pro/maybe pro thing is splitting hairs when all that really matters is the teacher or performer is very good and conducts him/herself well

It's odd that I came across this thread today as this issue is on my mind. I'm not a long-time dancer but I have lived and breathed belly dance since I started taking classes, reading, researching, taking classes, going to shows, competitions, videos, really anything I could get my hands on. I've been performing for just more than 2 years now. Because of the way I am, I doubt I would have ever considered myself a professional dancer. I love to dance but I don't have the kind of self-confidenct o declare myself a professional. Then about 8 months ago I was dancing at one of my teacher's community shows and she introduced me as a professional dancer.

You could have knocked me over with a slight gust of wind when she said that but honestly, I thought she knows best, right? I don't use the term often but I have taken some pride in the past few months that I was deemed "professional" by my dance mentor.

Last night she ended up at the show I was doing and told me flat out that I'm not a professional. Again, slight breeze could have knocked me over. She was complementary after I danced and pointed out things I did well, but it was definitely deflating.

Now I don't support myself with dancing; I support my dancing with dancing. But from the time I was a baby dancer, I have tried to conduct myself professionally. I'm never late. I dress appropriately both to arrive at gigs and while I'm dancing. I wear a cover up. I don't flirt with the band or the waiters. I don't drink or smoke when I go to dance. My friends know better than to be inappropriately rowdy when coming to see me. (Cheering loudly is perfectly OK when I kick a** at something, of course). I do my best to deal with problem customers without creating a scene or embarrassing people. I dance to the best of my ability, have fun and try to take the audience along with me.

I'm not Aziza; never said I was. But I feel like this bestowing of the "professional" label is being used as a carrot to first reward and now punish me. I know these terms matter but I also know that we're the ones that give them meaning. So after pouring over this thread, I'm still confused. And a bit disheartened that at least some people would say I have to give up my other love (I'm a journalist) to be considered a professional dancer.

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any sense but I think we (as the dance community and as people) need to be careful about throwing this term around. I know I'm not going to be using it again any time soon, if ever.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Does being a terrible teacher make one not a professional?

If I think back to my schooldays then yes, there were lots who were professional school teachers and many of them were crap in different ways. And some of them were inspirational or gifted. But they all made their livings being professional teachers.

So there's professional in the technical sense, i.e. you make your living doing it, you're fully qualified and bound to a code of ethics, or it's your job/career, and there's professional in the behavioural/conduct sense, and sometimes we see both in a person, just one, or neither. A doctor can sign a Hippocratic Oath and still be a hypocrite.

Personally (unless the tax man is reading this) I think that the "professional conduct" part is more important for us, as we are not risking lives doing heart surgery, educating young minds in the finer points of calculus or dealing with other people's money on their behalf. What matters is how we conduct ourselves, not the titles we give ourselves or each other.

To the poster who was knocked down twice by her teacher, she can "go and swivel" as we say in Liverpool (flicking the middle finger at the same time). From what you say you conduct yourself in a very professional manner and you get paid to do it too. So although I have no idea if you are "inspirational" or "technically brilliant" or whatever, you obviously can please an audience too. You fit my definitions of professional. But it's often better if you don't give a rat's arse about my opinion or anyone else's.

K x

I think professional conduct is overall more important, but everyone, from first day beginner to someone teaching for 50 years, should have it

Originally Posted by maliam

From the dictionary:
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

It would be more interesting to discuss in terms of No. 3 from Maliam`s dictionary, that is for example: professional conduct for bellydancers and bellydance teachers.

Amazingly, there are many professional bellydance teachers who have never been professional bellydancers before they started teaching. Many choose to pursue both jobs in the same time, in my area the sequence would be: 1. teaching bellydance to make money to buy more classes, workshops, and a good dress,
2. performing bellydance.

Saying this reminds me of a local dance school owner who literaly told me that bellydance does not need to be taught by professional bellydancers. What a disrespect for an art form...