Thread: Is this right? -About recital rehearsals

Teachers: Do you charge for extra rehearsal days for a student recital? and I says days plural as in 5-6 additional rehearsal days within a month...

I hear another troupe in the area doesn't pay for troupe class or rehearsal at all...

Originally Posted by Wondering

Teachers: Do you charge for extra rehearsal days for a student recital? and I says days plural as in 5-6 additional rehearsal days within a month...

I hear another troupe in the area doesn't pay for troupe class or rehearsal at all...

It's common for teachers to charge for recital rehearsals as if they were classes, because the rehearsal time is still *instruction*, and the purpose of a recital is for students to *learn* performing skills (as well as show their friends and families what they have learned).

I have been known to donate my time for the occasional recital-preparation rehearsal, but no more than one "free" rehearsal for a given recital. I wouldn't give away 5-6 recital-prep rehearsals free of charge.

Regarding the troupe who doesn't pay for troupe class or rehearsal at all... it's impossible to comment on that policy without knowing more about the details. For example, I know a teacher who doesn't charge her students for troupe rehearsal, but in order to be in her troupe you have to take a minimum of *two* technique classes from her per week paying her normal class prices, and you have to meet an attendance requirement of something like 90% for those two classes AND the troupe rehearsals. If you asked her students whether they pay for troupe rehearsal, the answer would be "no". But they ARE paying her for those two classes that are required as a condition for membership in the troupe.

Yes, it is reasonable to charge for recital and troupe rehearsals. In addition to the instruction aspect that Shira mentioned, there is also the issue of studio space rental costs that need to be covered. Why should the instructor/troupe director be expected to pay for these expenses out of her pocket?

Thank you for your input Shira! I understand and I completely agree that a teacher's time is precious and valuable, and I absolutely would never mind paying for instructions... However, I feel this should be encompassed WITHIN class time as opposed to ADDITIONALLY (aside for 1 rehearsal day), making it very difficult for students who are tight on money to come up with extra. I feel I have paid to learn the step once, and then paid to drill the steps, and paid to re-learn for those who missed the previous class.

I certainly do not want to complain if this is how things are done, and I will simply skip student recitals altogether and keep participating in paying gigs only if this is so, but I feel that adding 5-6 rehearsal days EXTRA within a month is a lot of money to come up with.

But this is the nature of performing...it involves a commitment far beyond ordinary weekly class attendance. If ordinary class time were sufficient to get the students ready for the show, then I'm sure the teacher would have made do with that. But that's rarely going to be the case, unless the performance is the most informal of haflas.

I think that as long as the teacher is up-front regarding her performance requirements, it is up to the student to decide whether she can accept the financial and time commitment.

I have been prepping my own students for their recital (tomorrow), and I managed to conduct two of our major rehearsals free of charge, but that's only because I have a long-standing relationship with the community college where I teach, and they allow me to use their studio space for free. If that weren't the case, I would have to charge the students simply to recover studio rental fees.

Nisaa

But this is the nature of performing...it involves a commitment far beyond ordinary weekly class attendance. If ordinary class time were sufficient to get the students ready for the show, then I'm sure the teacher would have made do with that. But that's rarely going to be the case, unless the performance is the most informal of haflas.

Good point! :) I guess I had just figured a student recital was a time to show off what we had learn during classes...

It is normal to charge fees for extra instruction/polishing time with the teacher as well as for any studio rental fees. For my student troupe, I have both regular class attendance requirements and rehearsal requirements. If there is an upcoming show, troupe members must participate in the rehearsals or they can not perform as they will not have the staging and other performance specific aspects ready.

Also - I do not teach the choreographies and such for the troupe during regular classes. Those can only be learned in troupe rehearsals. This leaves the regular classes free to focus on technique and on topics that are of value to all students, even if they do not perform with the troupe.

If there is a case where a troupe member can not afford to pay for the rehearsals, I will often do a services trade equal to the amount of the classes such as allowing them to sew, design flyers, or other things that are equivalent to the troupe rehearsal cost if it is feasible.

I hope this helps!

I love your ways Mahsati! That souds fair. I love how you separate the time to learn choreographies and technique, and I like the idea of having higher requirements for a performance troupe.

I assumed a student recital was different as it includes all of the students, from beginner to advance.

Originally Posted by Wondering

I love your ways Mahsati! That souds fair. I love how you separate the time to learn choreographies and technique, and I like the idea of having higher requirements for a performance troupe.

I assumed a student recital was different as it includes all of the students, from beginner to advance.

Absolutely! I rarely do actual student recitals for all of my classes because it requires students who have no interest in performing to prepare for a performance in which they do not wish to participate.

Instead, if I will be having a recital, I usually set up a separate 6-8 week recital prep course for them to learn choreographies and be ready for performing. This is a mini-set of classes and only the students who want to perform in group numbers need to attend. I charge for that session like I would for regular classes. This helps me keep the performance pressure off of the students who want to work only on their technique and dance without performing in public.

:)

Originally Posted by Wondering

However, I feel this should be encompassed WITHIN class time as opposed to ADDITIONALLY (aside for 1 rehearsal day), making it very difficult for students who are tight on money to come up with extra. <snip> I feel that adding 5-6 rehearsal days EXTRA within a month is a lot of money to come up with.

You make a valid point that a teacher should tell students up-front what kind of commitment (both time and money) will be expected of them if they choose to participate in a given performance. That way, the students can make educated decisions on whether they can be a part of it, and they can start planning ahead how they will fund things like rehearsal fees and costumes. I can see how it might be difficult to come up with money for 5-6 extra for-fee rehearsals within the space of a month's time.

Originally Posted by Wondering

I feel I have paid to learn the step once, and then paid to drill the steps, and paid to re-learn for those who missed the previous class.

I can see your point, but based on my experience as a teacher, I can tell you that a good rehearsal includes more than just drilling steps or memorized choreography. Yes, those things are usually part of it, but there's more.

A good rehearsal involves things like teaching and rehearsing entrances and exits, placing students in formations and getting them to remember who they're standing next to, drilling the formations (ie, keeping lines straight, circles round, etc), teaching stage presence skills, teaching how to transition from one song to another, etc. Those things aren't always taught in weekly classes, especially ones in which *some* of the students don't intend to be part of the upcoming show, but they're important for performance. If those details aren't rehearsed, chaos can ensue during the performance itself.

It sounds like your primary concern is that you're faced with expenses you weren't expecting, and you're having difficulty with that. That's a legitimate concern. I'd suggest that you take your teacher aside privately, explain the difficulty, and see whether there's a barter you could do, or whether you could spread your expenses out over a longer period of time. While you're at it, you might want to tactfully suggest that in the future it would be helpful to know w-a-y in advance of planned rehearsals or other expenses so you can figure out how to budget for them.

I am a bit confused here, and must take the devil's advocate part on behalf of 'Wondering'. Perhaps it would help to define what we mean by 'troupe' versus 'group'? When I hear 'student recital', I think it is designed to show off what the students have learned during the class, and acts also as good publicity for the teacher. A final product of the teaching, even if a choreography is used. I understand that the teacher's input is still needed for choreography, but at what point does the teacher stop charging? A professional troupe choreographs together, don't they? Do they still pay one person, or do they share expenses like studio rental? I don't feel it's right to have to keep paying to learn the same steps over and over again, if that's what's happening. If a teacher is going to charge for teaching her students to perform, then it ought to be listed with the classes as a class, such a 'performance readiness', or some such thing, culminating in a show, rather than just saying 'we're going to have a student recital, bring your family and friends and $200. for me'. When I think of student recital, I think free. Students and money don't usually go together, so you're all right: it needs to be Very clear from the get-go that an extra charge will apply for those wanting to be in a choreographed recital, otherwise just let them do their own choreography and charge admission for hall rental expenses. Anything gained from extra hall admission could go to a dancers' night out or something.

It sounds to me, too, like the biggest problem here was that the teacher didn't communicate clearly what would be expected of you in terms of time and money before you made the decision whether you wanted to participate in the recital. That's a valid issue. Your teacher isn't trying to rip you off, but she either made a mistake by not communicating clearly OR she didn't realize early enough herself what the requirements would be.

Before I get on my little soapbox, if the money is creating a hardship for you, I suggest to you talk to your instructor about some kind of work-study arrangement. You can probably help with tickets, ushering, stage managing, sound, video or some other aspect of the show in exchange for your rehearsal fees -- helper habibis are badly needed at this time.

*hops up on soapbox*

Your point that the recital is a chance to show off what you've learned during the year is valid only on one level. Not everyone who takes classes WANTS to perform in front of the general public, some people just want to have fun. We like to accommodate those people in our regular classes, so we don't usually push everyone in class to a performance standard.

But those who CHOOSE to perform have to be held to a higher standard. People are paying for tickets to watch your teacher's show, and she owes them the best show she can give. And she owes it to her students to show them what the standard is for performance. People will forgive a lot when they're watching 6-year-olds in tutus. Audiences are not as forgiving to adult students.

Most important of all, she owes it to this art form and to the dance community to present the dance as professionally as possible to the audience, even though she's working with student-level performers. For a lot of these audience members, this is the ONLY glimpse of 'real' bellydancing they will EVER see. If it's amateurish and poorly presented, they are NOT going to walk out of the theater with respect for us. If it's slick and sharp and special, they will. Their perceptions will be shared with their friends, their families -- who knows, there may even be a blogger or two in the audience. The only way we can raise our public perception is to hold our public performances to a high standard.

*hops down off soapbox*

My understanding is that we are talking about a student recital, not a performing troupe.

Originally Posted by KHari3

I don't feel it's right to have to keep paying to learn the same steps over and over again, if that's what's happening.

Well, in that case, ALL classes would have to be free, because for most students a LOT of repetition of the same technique is necessary before mastery can be achieved.

otherwise just let them do their own choreography and charge admission for hall rental expenses

I think it depends on what type of student show the teacher is putting on. The situation you described, to me, is an informal hafla. I think that's all well and good for teachers who choose to put on this type of event. But "recital" does not necessarily equal "hafla." I'm just speaking for myself here, but my own recital is very structured and very demanding - students have to meet classroom and rehearsal attendance requirements, they have to obtain appropriate costuming, etc. I have 3 proficiency levels, and my Level 1 students are not permitted to perform in the recital. Also, only Level 3 students are permitted to solo. All these requirements are spelled out in writing for them when I solicit volunteers for the recital. My requirements are rigorous because I want students to see performance as something requiring a great deal of commitment beyond once a week class attendance. Again, this boils down to 1. the teacher communicating her requirements and 2. the student being willing to accept those requirements.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But those who CHOOSE to perform have to be held to a higher standard. People are paying for tickets to watch your teacher's show, and she owes them the best show she can give. And she owes it to her students to show them what the standard is for performance. People will forgive a lot when they're watching 6-year-olds in tutus. Audiences are not as forgiving to adult students.

Well said!

Lauren, I think we were standing on neighboring soap boxes!

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Well said!

Lauren, I think we were standing on neighboring soap boxes!

Nisaa, most of the time when I get on mine, I look over and there you are! ..l;,
(and where's Sedonia, hmmmmmm??? Isn't she usually pallin' around up here with us?)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Nisaa, most of the time when I get on mine, I look over and there you are! ..l;,
(and where's Sedonia, hmmmmmm??? Isn't she usually pallin' around up here with us?)

Oh, I'm sure she'll be along at some point!

Girls you are all great. I dont have a problem paying for any of this at all. I guess my question should have been, is there a difference between a student recital and a show? Or something like that? This is supposed to be a student recital, yet my family and friends will have to pay to get in.

I really dont mind either way, but I do have to say that I felt things were getting out of hand, and it felt like they were trying to find reasons to "make more money", adding rehearsals here and there, lots of them.

She did mention ahead of time that this is what the schedule for rehearsals would be, and that was great. Her instruction is well worth the money. But this isnt "troupe" rehearsals.

In any case, knowing all this, I wont feel so (I was going to say angry, but that is rather strong) ticked about paying for extra everything since I guess that's how it goes. Though I must say, I will pick and chose what I learn and what class I take, then, because the schedule is now just plain insane!

I'm sure it seems that way, Wondering. I used to feel the same way about paying for recitals/haflas AND about paying for crappy videos of the same performances afterwards.

If it helps any, please know that your instructor is probably working 12 hour days to make this happen for everyone, and her stress AND expenses are greater than you could ever imagine. Theater rental averages over $1000, more if you also want some tech rehearsal time -- plus they require insurance, you have to pay hundreds to hire the theater's sound guy... programs and tickets and handbills have to be printed...

It's rare to show much profit from a student show, and the instructor can lose quite a bit of money if she isn't careful. Even if there IS profit, it's likely that given the number of hours she has to put in to make this all come together, she MIGHT be making $1 an hour at best.

And even that small profit is usually reinvested in YOUR classes, in the form of new music, props, or your teacher buying a video or attending a workshop that will give her new material to teach to you.

I'm pretty shrewd, and I *force* my student show to turn a small profit. But really, that profit helps my bottom line enough to prevent me from having to raise the price of my classes. It's all going into the same pot in the end.

Most dance studios, where little kids take ballet, etc, now charge a 'recital fee' of perhaps $100 per dancer, plus require you to order your costumes through them and they take a cut of that. Some also require to you sell a set number of tickets. And I *still* don't think they're making money from it, it just offsets the costs of running a studio so class prices can remain reasonable.

As far as the show being a publicity factor for the studio -- not really. It's rare for a student recital to attract the general public. The audience is the students' friends and family, they already know about the studio & classes and would've signed up if they were interested.

Student recitals are a service the studio provides for the students. Many -- most -- students really enjoy them and look forward to them each year. The main benefit to the studio is that recitals help us keep students interested/excited/growing in their skills. I do it so my students can have an opportunity to perform on a 'real' stage, and we all enjoy it tremendously!!!

Originally Posted by mahsati

. . . if I will be having a recital, I usually set up a separate 6-8 week recital prep course for them to learn choreographies and be ready for performing. This is a mini-set of classes and only the students who want to perform in group numbers need to attend. I charge for that session like I would for regular classes. This helps me keep the performance pressure off of the students who want to work only on their technique and dance without performing in public. :)

Mahsati, the way I read this is that the students interested in participating in the recital take their regular class(es), plus the recital preparation class. Is this correct?

Deborah

My instructor has never charged us for rehearsals. We do do most of our preparation in class, but she does hold extra rehearsals on occasion, and she donates her time for these.

On the other hand, when we perform at community events, and then walk around handing out her brochures afterward, we are donating our time to promote her studio.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Mahsati, the way I read this is that the students interested in participating in the recital take their regular class(es), plus the recital preparation class. Is this correct?

Deborah

Hi Deborah, they have the option of taking both or of taking the time off from the regular classes and only attending the recital/prep class if necessary. I strongly recommend that they attend as many regular classes as they can in addition to the recital/prep class and admittance to the recital/prep class is limited to students who have been taking at least 6 months of classes with me already. However, if they can only attend one class a week and want to perform in the recital class, then they may attend that class only as long as they have already been my students in regular classes for 6 months. I don't do these recital/prep classes and recitals often because I am very conscious of students who want to focus on learning the technique and history without any (even oblique) pressure to perform.

The student troupe members, on the other hand, are required to attend a certain percent of regular classes as well as troupe practices, so they have to have a higher level of commitment.

I hope that makes sense! Sometimes I tend to ramble a bit :)

Wondering, would you mind defining your 'student recital' for us? When I think 'student recital' I think of a student showcase for those who would not be considered 'performance level' yet... like when my 8 & 5 year olds have a yearly recital. It is normal in all art forms (voice, piano, ballet) to pay for the added instruction required to prepare for a recital performance and to charge admission to attendants to cover hall rental. My instructor/director holds a student recital each summer; beginners can show 'drills' intermediates have 2 group choreos and advanced does 2 additional group numbers and may solo...
Now, if we were talking about a theatrical production then that's a different thing as they are marketed to the general public, requires much more preparation, and come with much more expense than most realize. The semi-professional troupe I dance with does 2 theatrical productions yearly -- one large scale the second a bit smaller, both are heavily promoted to the GP and we are not charged for our director/producer's instruction during rehearsals because she has an in-home studio (or we would have to share the studio expense,) and we are expected to know the choreography by the time rehearsals start (most have been taught in special choreo classes.) However, we are expected to sell a minimum number of tickets and advertisements for the program, we help with promotion slicks/posters, press-releases, event-calendar submissions and still do only about a tenth of what our director/producer does to make the show a success... and you know what, she still barely makes a profit (I happen to also be her bookkeeper.) When you consider that she is also the choreographer/instructor and you factor in time listening-to & choosing new music plus the hours spent in her studio dancing-it-out to create new choreo's, not to mention all the master workshops she attends throughout the year gleaning new combo's she makes very little indeed! Plus all up-front expense is hers (theater rental, event insurance, concession stocking, advertising, programs, musicians, lighting techs, sound techs, stage-hands, stage-manager, & guest performer -- just off the top of my head) unless the school can obtain non-profit status to recieve grants (which it should considering there's very little profit ever but it is difficult for most artists to figure out the system/red-tape)... Really, the 'we are advertisement for her classes' argument tends to come up empty with all living/breathing/eating-this-stuff she does give us a stage to dance on -- and seriously, we expect her to give us a stage to perform on because we want to perform. No, it's not a 50/50 exchange... I would not do her job; she does it because of her commitment to the art form the same way she holds small student-recitals out of her commitment to her students.
Hey, Lauren, hope there's plenty of room on that soapbox and that you don't mind sharing it with one more... ..l;,

Oh, and the "barely making a profit" thing was to a sold-out audience this spring -- she was in the red last fall...

Originally Posted by mahsati

Hi Deborah, they have the option of taking both or of taking the time off from the regular classes and only attending the recital/prep class if necessary. I strongly recommend that they attend as many regular classes as they can in addition to the recital/prep class and admittance to the recital/prep class is limited to students who have been taking at least 6 months of classes with me already. However, if they can only attend one class a week and want to perform in the recital class, then they may attend that class only as long as they have already been my students in regular classes for 6 months. I don't do these recital/prep classes and recitals often because I am very conscious of students who want to focus on learning the technique and history without any (even oblique) pressure to perform.

The student troupe members, on the other hand, are required to attend a certain percent of regular classes as well as troupe practices, so they have to have a higher level of commitment.

I hope that makes sense! Sometimes I tend to ramble a bit :)

Makes perfect sense to me . . . thanks for sharing!

Deborah

For my classes, I start them on the choreo they will perform as early as possible and try to get the lot done in class time only. Usually when we're getting close to the actual performance date we'll run class a bit longer, and will often set up an extra rehearsal or two if needed, which I usually do gratis and we just pay for studio time. That's my choice, because I want them to feel confident and do well, but they don't have a lot of spare dosh. My involvement in those practice sessions is usually as facilitator and "eyes" - I'm not teaching technique, they already know the dance by then, they just need to do it a lot of times, and I'm there in those cases to pick up on hands and positioning and those things.

This is for a school show, which we have twice a year. They usually have a good two months on the choreo material.

Originally Posted by Wondering

Girls you are all great. I dont have a problem paying for any of this at all. I guess my question should have been, is there a difference between a student recital and a show? Or something like that? This is supposed to be a student recital, yet my family and friends will have to pay to get in.

I really dont mind either way, but I do have to say that I felt things were getting out of hand, and it felt like they were trying to find reasons to "make more money", adding rehearsals here and there, lots of them.

She did mention ahead of time that this is what the schedule for rehearsals would be, and that was great. Her instruction is well worth the money. But this isnt "troupe" rehearsals.

In any case, knowing all this, I wont feel so (I was going to say angry, but that is rather strong) ticked about paying for extra everything since I guess that's how it goes. Though I must say, I will pick and chose what I learn and what class I take, then, because the schedule is now just plain insane!

All of my teachers have NOT charged for show rehearsals. Yes, the family and guests have to pay to come see it, but we always do technique for half the class and rehearsal for part. If we need more time, we stay after class and are not charged for extra time. Is this a class recital/show, in my opinion you should not be paying extra for practice. May be you can all meet somewhere free and practice together.

I always have at least a few students in each class who AREN'T interested in performing, for whatever reason, so I try NOT to spend a lot of class time on staging & performance issues. I don't want students to feel left out, or like they paid for a session where they were ignored.

But I usually work on the choreo we'll be performing, and relevant technique during class, just like a regular session, and ask those who will be performing to stay for 15-20 minutes after class each week to work on staging & performance issues. I don't charge for any of that rehearsal time, although between my 6 classes it adds up over the course of the 6 week session.

But I'm in a unique position because I own my own studio & don't have to pay for studio rental. Also, my primary performing class is my repertory group, and they already take two classes a week, one for choreo & technique, one to keep the repertoire polished & stage-ready.

The exception is my Level 4 class -- they're all performers (unless someone's going to be out of town the week of the show) and they're the only group that's allowed to do solos. So we spend the session prior to the show polishing up a group number and working on their solos.

When I've had a student performance, we have extra rehearsals (usually 4-6) apart from the class where we work on the bones of the choreography.

These extra rehearsals take place near the time of the performance, and are specifically to polish the choreo that they (should) already know, and take place at my student's homes, as I do not have a studio and do not have the space in my own home. However, if I had to rent studio space, I would absolutely have to charge enough to cover the cost of the rental. I do not charge my students for these extra rehearsals, but they're always telling me how much they appreciate my time, which makes for a nice emotional perk!

Deborah

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But I'm in a unique position because I own my own studio & don't have to pay for studio rental. Also, my primary performing class is my repertory group, and they already take two classes a week, one for choreo & technique, one to keep the repertoire polished & stage-ready.

Maybe that's why my instructor doesn't charge, either. She has her own studio, and the cost to her is the same no matter how many hours per week she uses it. If rehearsals were to cost her extra, then I'd certainly expect her to pass along the costs. And I know she spends lots of time and energy on us, besides what happens in class. When she's away, I'm the person she leaves in charge when we have a performance someplace, and it's like herding cats sometimes, I swear.

She also generously allows us the use of her studio to rehearse anytime it's not being used for classes. I have a key, so I can go in with my troupe whenever we feel the need. We've also sometimes met at someone's house to rehearse, although that can be difficult with a sword or veil dance, as none of us have enough empty space for several dancers with swords or veils.

Anyway, our instructor is puts her heart and soul into her students, and I do appreciate it very much. Sometimes some students grumble about being charged for DVDs etc., but I never do. She also allows students to pay pro-rated class fees for classes they can't attend, but I always pay full fee, because I feel that if I've signed up for a session, I pay for the session, and if I can't make a class or two, that's my choice, and it's not up to my instructor to take a financial hit for it. She has the same expenses whether or not I'm there.

With my other (tribal) instructor, I attend two classes a week. One is a drills class, and the other is an improv/choreography class that's more geared to performance. This sounds similar to what mahsati does, and it makes sense, as this instructor rents studio time.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I do not charge my students for these extra rehearsals, but they're always telling me how much they appreciate my time, which makes for a nice emotional perk!
Deborah

Isn't it wonderful to be appreciated? Because the life of a studio owner and troupe leader is so intense, just as SongofIncense describes above. Few students are aware of the enormous financial and emotional strain of owning a studio, directing a successful performance troupe, and so forth. Unfortunate indeed is the troupe leader who is taken for granted, or worse, faulted in spite of doing his or her best.

Here's to grateful students :)


Khalida