Thread: What do you do with know-alls in your class?

I know I am not alone in this, a friend has a student who likes to teach at the back but some of mine are now getting cofident enough to do it!
I've just had an email from a new and very keen and promising student who said she was getting advice "from the back" and is understandably confused.
I am also trying to give out information and have one very keen girl talks over me. I also had complaints from another teacher she has been doing this in her class too!
Now I always knew how to tell off a 13 year old boy when he did that in class.
How do you deal with the middle aged professional or your "advanced" student?
If I am not getting through, I'd rather they told me so I can sort myself..that's what I'm paid for.,r:;

what i've seen happen in some, were teachers piping in,
'is someone saying something?' or 'someone have a question? i hear talking' to call attention (and shut 'em up :p), then, later, take the offendor(privately) aside to cease n desist

in my own class, i've done the latter

This has worked for me in other settings...(I don't teach bellydance except to sub)... You might tell the person (in private) that you really have noticed how good they are with other people, and how astute they are at learning, and tell them you really need their help in setting an example by helping everyone be quiet and attentive in class... By enlisting their help, you give them a job that makes them feel important--which is what they are really wanting.

Well, it seems like this can arise very easily if the teacher is just standing at the front talking to the whole class and leading the exercises.

IMO the teacher should be wandering through giving personal comments to each person every class, which should cut down on this kind of thing. Give the know it all something specific to do and it should shut her up.

"If you want to review what I've taught with the other students, please wait until after class. I find it a little distracting. Furthermore I want to ensure that everyone is able to clearly see and hear me and the music during class."

Originally Posted by ssipes

Well, it seems like this can arise very easily if the teacher is just standing at the front talking to the whole class and leading the exercises.

IMO the teacher should be wandering through giving personal comments to each person every class, which should cut down on this kind of thing. Give the know it all something specific to do and it should shut her up.

I agree. It might depend if the know-it-all is giving bad info or generally good info (just at times when it is distracting).

Ruta's advice is good too--you can say, "I see you're working on something back there--other people might have the same questions..." and then see what it is they were doing at the back of the room.

Have you tried walking back to them and continuing to teach from there? It usually works quite well in a classroom of kids. Just putting yourself physically close to the talker(s) can be enough to quiet them.

I would talk with her privately after class. Ask her to please refrain from talking over you, etc. If that doesn't work I would try the talk once more and tell her she will no longer be welcome in your class if it continues. 3rd strike and she is out! In any other dance form you would be kicked out of class if you talked over the teacher. Why should we be any different? If it is an advanced student she must be in a more advanced class which means the students should have some self discipline. That level is beyond the stage of getting out of the house, for fun, looking to spice up the marriage, etc.

Have you tried walking back to them and continuing to teach from there? It usually works quite well in a classroom of kids. Just putting yourself physically close to the talker(s) can be enough to quiet them.

For what its worth, I think that this might be a good tactic to try, especially with older students.

In one class I used to attend an older lady who I was friendly with used to talk over the teacher about dancing and also about social chit chat. This made me very uncomfortable as it was clearly not ok and also because the usual target of the social chit chat was me - so it made it look like I wanted to talk over the teacher too.

I spoke to her about this and tried to ignore her in a class context and I know that the teacher also tried to put a stop to it. However this lady took the attitude (which I totally disagree with, for the record) that she was 'an adult who was paying good money to have fun and could therefore do what she liked'.

I have since encountered similar attitudes from more mature students and 'having a word' can seem to backfire on these occasions because although they are there to learn, they don't take kindly to anything that smacks (to them) of being back in the classroom.

Just my personal experience.

Just for another side of the coin, something I have seen:
Student in the back is not getting something and frustrated but teacher is moving right ahead not aware that not everybody is with her. Kind-hearted student who is confident that she does "get it," next to frustrated student, tries to help frustrated student. Or, student in the back has been just obliviously going on making an obvious mistake. Teacher has not noticed this. Kind-hearted student next to mistake-maker, sidles up to her and says, "Look, it's not a lift; it's a drop," or whatever.

Teacher stops talking or music stops. Teacher hears the kind-hearted student in the back giving advice to her neighbor. Says "Would everyone please not talk and let ME teach this class!" . . . or some such thing. Kind-hearted helper feels wounded and humiliated.

So anyway, not at all to assume that this applies to every situation, but as I think Sedonia is also saying, keeping a good eye out to make sure nobody is getting left behind is one way to reduce students teaching students during a class. Also I think it's important to bear in mind that the "student teachers" may have very good intentions and to be tactful in steering them off from "helping" too much.
Rosette

"Also I think it's important to bear in mind that the "student teachers" may have very good intentions and to be tactful in steering them off from "helping" too much."

Oh, dear. I think I'm guilty. But it's not that I jump in to correct another student. It's that other students often turn to me and ask me. I usually "get it" fairly quickly, and I almost never miss a class, so I guess that's why this happens.

It's not while the teacher is talking to the whole class as a rule, but when she's working with an individual, changing the music, etc. Sometime's she'll look over, and then I'll say something like, "We were wondering about such-and-such a move. Is it like this?"

I don't mean to be rude or horn in on the teacher.

Rosette - I have seen that happen many times - I agree with you that the teacher being too harsh can turn people off. I once attended a large workshop and the teacher came off as angry, rude, Diva-like - I have never attended one of her workshops again and won't in the future. (Was not even directed at me but it changed the whole atmosphere of the workshop).

I do agree that it can be distracting for extra talking to be going on - but I would hope that it could be solved in a manner that would not injure anyone's self esteem and continue the class in a friendly supportive upbeat manner.

As a student, this behavior drives me mad. I've been in classes where a question is asked of the instructor and Ms. Know-It-All pipes up with an answer before the teacher does!

I'm not paying the gal next to me to teach the class, I'm paying the instructor.

Sorry--don't have any advice, just wanted to let you know that it can be frustrating for students as well.

Also, playing the student devil's advocate--if you are getting something, sometimes other students will whisper, "What is she doing...is it like this?" I feel weird just ignoring a classmate who asks me something and it's not like you can just say, "Teacher!!! Shelly's not getting it!" That would seem weird, too!

Originally Posted by Taj

As a student, this behavior drives me mad. I've been in classes where a question is asked of the instructor and Ms. Know-It-All pipes up with an answer before the teacher does!

Wow - now I agree that that is just plain rude! But I still think correction would be best in private and gentle.

I think most of these girls are just trying to be helpful and don't quite realize that they're being rude and disrespectful. Particularly if the person beside them expresses their frustration in not "getting" a move and the "student teacher" beside them feels they do.

Because of this, I choose to deal publicly with the matter on the first day of the session. For those who feel they're above this and disrespect (or forget of) my wishes, I'll ask to speak to them after class and address the issue privately. I explain that I would prefer they not instruct the others since they do not have adequate training to do so. While they may feel they have the move and are trying to help, they risk hurting the person or instilling bad habits. That the other students are paying me to instruct them and they are disturbing the class.

If they're doing it because they think they're the next Shakira and are above listening... well, when I go around I'll get them something extra to do that I know will humble them and keep them busy.

Also, I've been in class before and had people right out ask me to help them. It's uncomfortable being put in that position, so I think it's useful to address everyone on the subject.

I agree that the teacher should be moving around in the class and making sure everone is following what they are teaching. The times that I have seen when students are helping each other, it is because 1) the teacher is not paying enough attention to the students or 2) one time we had a sub and she was not qualified to teach at all... had no idea about any moves etc..
3) sometimes you do get know it alls who want to be the center if attention,but I have not seen that very often.
Almost every class I have taken, I have had someone else in the class ask me to explain a move to them in a different way because they were not getting it. You can't just be rude and ignore them, although it may seem rude to some teachers.
The best advice I can give is have self awareness of how you are teaching..

What do you do with know-alls in your class?

Know more...

Are these know it all students adults? It never ceases to amaze me how rude and juvenile grown adults can be.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

What do you do with know-alls in your class?

Know more...

I do but don't you find some people think they know more than they actually do..g.:

Originally Posted by mish_mish

Also, playing the student devil's advocate--if you are getting something, sometimes other students will whisper, "What is she doing...is it like this?" I feel weird just ignoring a classmate who asks me something and it's not like you can just say, "Teacher!!! Shelly's not getting it!" That would seem weird, too!

I have the same issue, particularly in my foundation class. I go to 3 classes a week and spend a similar amount of time practicing so in this class I have often "got" the move and several variations of it before the class starts (I take this class because I want to be sure of *all *my foundation moves, because I had gaps). Some of my classmates have noticed this and actually I find it quite unnerving when they stop to watch how I do it ..l;, , or worse, ask me for advice (because I so don't want to be that rude student, I spend 3.5 hours a week with my teacher, I'm not going to upset her! .w.: ).

The good news is that my teacher saves me with her teaching format: When she is teaching a move/choreo, she rotates the rows very often, for instance if we were doing a very short choreo following maybe 16 bars of music, we would do it twice, then front row goes to the back. This keeps things busy, and means noone can hide at the back (gossiping, "teaching" or hiding from the mirrors ..g.: ), she gets to watch everyone properly while she is still demonstrating. Then while the group practices a move, she will walk around and give individual feedback, usually based on what she saw while we were rotating. Everyone gets attention and there is very little opportunity for people to start their own mini lesson. All that said though, as a school teacher, I am well aware that sometimes you can do all the right things, and if someone is beligerent enough, they will find a way around it .

[QUOTE=Kash13;186666]I have the same issue, particularly in my foundation class. I go to 3 classes a week and spend a similar amount of time practicing so in this class I have often "got" the move and several variations of it before the class starts (I take this class because I want to be sure of *all *my foundation moves, because I had gaps). Some of my classmates have noticed this and actually I find it quite unnerving when they stop to watch how I do it ..l;, , or worse, ask me for advice (because I so don't want to be that rude student, I spend 3.5 hours a week with my teacher, I'm not going to upset her! .w.: ).

The good news is that my teacher saves me with her teaching format: When she is teaching a move/choreo, she rotates the rows very often, for instance if we were doing a very short choreo following maybe 16 bars of music, we would do it twice, then front row goes to the back.


Nisima, here and I love the "rotation of rows" thing. Director has started doing this in Int. to troupe level classes because there is a group of "know-alls" who love to stay in back and constantly talk over her amongst themselves. And they still are not getting it right, becuase they are not, hello, *listening to teacher*. She has said this a gazillion times in the past year to no effect so now she rotates rows to get them closer to her and that stops the "talking over" behavior which is very disruptive to other students. I only sub teach for her or teach private classes to a whole different group and I simply stand there and *wait* and sometimes even stop music. People need to be trained that being attentive in class is a requirement to best possible learning experience and they often simply don't realize they are undermining that process by talking over teacher. Oh, and I'm going to add one more thing: asking impossbily convoluted questions that ramble on and on. And it's always the "know-all" who does this and I always just say, "I can answer your question best by demonstrating the step/combination again at half time - WATCH". .p:: I also remind them that there is such a thing as "over intelletualizing" dance, esp. with issues of transitioning from one step to next you have to FEEL it, and keep DOING IT, not THINK IT...g.:

Originally Posted by lizajuk

I know I am not alone in this, a friend has a student who likes to teach at the back but some of mine are now getting cofident enough to do it!
I've just had an email from a new and very keen and promising student who said she was getting advice "from the back" and is understandably confused.
I am also trying to give out information and have one very keen girl talks over me. I also had complaints from another teacher she has been doing this in her class too!
Now I always knew how to tell off a 13 year old boy when he did that in class.
How do you deal with the middle aged professional or your "advanced" student?
If I am not getting through, I'd rather they told me so I can sort myself..that's what I'm paid for.,r:;

HMM this very thing happend to me in a class I dropped into a few times. Over 2 yearsago . One particular lady tried to correct me on my veil while I was paying attention to the teacher. She came righ up to me in the back pof the class and redid my veil . I said excuse me I did not know there were 2 teachers. I am here to learn from the teaher not another student. It was very rude my friend looked over at me and rolled her eyes as if to say OH GOD WHAT NERVE. !
WEll I never went to that class again. Way uncomfortable

Originally Posted by Desideria

One particular lady tried to correct me on my veil while I was paying attention to the teacher. She came righ up to me in the back pof the class and redid my veil .

Oh, I HATE that. The teacher is allowed to tell me "Correct this, loosen that up, speed that up..." My classmates? Not so much. If I don't ask for help, don't offer it!

Originally Posted by Rosette

Just for another side of the coin, something I have seen:
Student in the back is not getting something and frustrated but teacher is moving right ahead not aware that not everybody is with her. Kind-hearted student who is confident that she does "get it," next to frustrated student, tries to help frustrated student. Or, student in the back has been just obliviously going on making an obvious mistake. Teacher has not noticed this. Kind-hearted student next to mistake-maker, sidles up to her and says, "Look, it's not a lift; it's a drop," or whatever.

I agree here. As an instructor, the first thing to do in this situation is ask yourself "Am I noticing when people don't get it and correcting/helping them, or am I ignoring them? If you are not correcting, you are leaving a niche that the know-it-all is going to want to fill.

*treading lightly here*

A few years ago I took classes from a friend of mine who is a lovely dancer but, by her own admission, wasn't very good with some of the fundamentals such as posture. I was there to drill. She also didn't know a great deal about the history and traditions of Belly Dance. The other students started to come to me for this information. My friend didn't have a problem with it, but it did make me uncomfortable. Especially when I watched students do things which caused physical injury.

And I stayed at the back of the classroom so that I didn't draw attention away from the teacher.

Just my $.02 worth

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by mish_mish

Also, playing the student devil's advocate--if you are getting something, sometimes other students will whisper, "What is she doing...is it like this?" I feel weird just ignoring a classmate who asks me something and it's not like you can just say, "Teacher!!! Shelly's not getting it!" That would seem weird, too!

I've spoken up and asked "Teacher, can you break that down again for us back here?" That way no humiliation for Shelly but I'm not doing my instructors job. I have had another student correct me before also, I love getting to plaster a big cheesy grin to say "Hey, I pay her to tell me when I suck; why would I let you do it for free?" It usually gets a good chuckle and disarms the culprit but gets the point across.
Rach

I teach much of the time in a circle and yes that does help but at times rows are the only way and during a "water break" on a hot night when I was asked questions, I was cut across.
I realise some folks are just there for the social but nothing made me smile more than another student holding a hand up in front of that other's face.
Unfortunately it's all very well saying teacher should see everything and know everything...you can't and you don't. In my case I do know a hell of a lot more than my students because none have been dancing any more than a quarter of the time I have but I don't have eyes in the back of my head and that's when you get the sneaky "teacher's assistant" striking!
Part of the problem I know is they do want to be helpful but I know this has happened to distrup another new teachers class and of course it is counter productive. I am going to be judgemental here but a couple of my students go to a teacher who is untrained and has horrific technique and I see bad practise ( fussy hands, "go for it" lack of isolation dancing) and it's rubbing off! I have to keep going on about control and subtlety and tastefulness and it seems pennies don't drop.
And what really frightens me is guess who are trying to teach at the back....
I've already heard they have been telling students in the other lady's class.."oh we do it this way with ******",m:: ..cr.:

Hiya Lizaj,

What about building in a student sharing session towards the end where students can pair up and watch each other and give advice or share something with the whole group... like 'this helped me learn this...' and that sort of thing. This way if there is any mis-information, you are on hand to correct it. Also, sharing doesnt make you the teacher look like a frightend control freak.

If it's not too bad, or consistent, I let it go. Especially if the other student seems to be getting something from it. Now when I've had 'stage moms' I've had to let them know, 'there can only be one teacher here, so you have the lobby or you can suit up and come learn with us.' If this were a consistent problem and a distraction, I'd talk to the student privately.

Recently in my class I had a person who was taking beginners but rushing through everything while I was still breaking it down. She was doing a rather sloppy job of it too. When I made corrections, she rolled her eyes. I thought about what was bothering me about that and next time told her...'you're really wasting your time by rushing through these exercies, at your level (9 months or so) you should be perfecting these movements rather than rushing through them. HOwever if you are just here for fun and don't care about how you look, I suppose you can just let me know and I'll stop correcting you. I want you to get what you want out of this class.'

She straightened up miraculously.

KS