Thread: Spinoff on "Beginners in Intermediate Class"...a related rant

I was going to post this in the "Beginners in Intermediate Class" thread, but I thought it might warrant a separate rant and discussion...

A frustration I deal with a LOT is when I get students who want/feel entitled to sign up for my higher-level classes because they were in "so and so's" intermediate class, performed at her haflas, etc. The problem is that many (if not most) of these students are not really at the skill level that the "intermediate" label would imply.

There is quite a wide spectrum of instruction in my area. There are instructors such as myself whose classes (at least the higher levels) are targeted primarily at students who really want to learn how to dance, while there are others whose classes are more fitness-oriented, others whose classes are goddessy, etc. I think the variety is great because it meets a lot of different needs. On the other hand, we also have a spectrum of QUALITY of instruction, from the really outstanding to the outright wrong. What qualifies as "intermediate" among some teachers in my area is SOOOOOO not intermediate in my curriculum, but the terminology creates a huge challenge. A student who has been tagged "intermediate" in a really basic class with a poor instructor perhaps does not realize she WAS in a really basic class with a poor instructor and resents the idea of "starting over."

I have tried a lot of things to minimize this problem. I have tried over the past couple of years to be more and more clear and descriptive in my class titles and descriptions; I've done away with the Beginner/Intermediate labels and now have a numerical level structure. I try to offer diplomatic responses to the students who want to jump right into my higher levels: "Every teacher has a different style, so it's helpful to start in my Level 1 so you can get familiar with my teaching style and philosphy before moving up." "I have a very set curriculum and I'd like to ensure you have all the foundations in my Level 1 curriculum before moving up." And so on.

Yet, so often, I get students who just are not willing to accept what I'm telling them. I don't like forbidding students from classes, but the alternative is to go ahead and PUT them in the higher level class, where they generally crash and burn and end up asking to be moved to a lower level.

I am not sure if I'm asking for advice here or if I'm just looking to commiserate. Perhaps some of you have other ideas of how to approach the subject with these prospective students? I guess the hardest thing about this is that it is very, very difficult not to go off on a tirade with these students about the poor quality of their prior instruction. Cause after all, it's not the STUDENT'S fault that she was tagged intermediate and pushed onto a performing stage without the requisite skill.

Anyway, rant over.

Nisaa

i like how some in the other thread describe entry in their intermediate as either taking successfully their beginner, OR demonstrating proficiency.....many in this area do..........which basically means, 'show me watcha got', which causes many accellerators to re-assess..........

i'm a proponent of starting fresh with a new teacher/style, UNLESS the teacher has SEEN your level and suggests the best level for you to start with them........

I've heard of upper levels only being open to those who audition/test for them...could you do that? (like martial arts belts...I can se it now...beaded belt, copper coin, silver coin, gold coin, then SPARKLY!!!)

Maybe I haven't had enough sleep today

Just letting her dance a song would solve it in 5 minutes. If she really already learned a decent amount, she can show it and if not you will know it. Maybe let her watch an intermediate class first so she can bow out gracefully. Maybe it's best to pick a random song because some people can dance one to one song but not do much else.

If she had a bad teacher, she may have indeed been taking lessons for a few years and may have considered herself good compared to what she saw from other students of that bad teacher. Being gentle would be nice because those subpar teachers arent telling their students that they won't be learning much.

It's annoying for the true intermediate students too if new students come into a class.

I think despite clear class level descriptions, it's really hard for teachers to in essence, screen out wanna-be intermediates or aspiring advanced level students. If the teacher says "no", many will be offended and not come to class at all, if she says "yes" and then dumbs down the class for the "newbie intermediates" then the existing intermediate or advanced students are not happy. I agree with the notion that the problem is solved in 5 minutes, assuming the teacher teaches the level the class is supposed to be, then if the pre-requisite level of dance skills isn't there, the student usually decides themselves they "aren't ready yet" and is content to drop down a level and work towards it. I think it is a better approach to not be restrictive, let 'em in, and just don't dumb down the class. That's fair to everyone and the student can't really complain (except for those students who complain about everything and that's a different thread.)

Disclaimer: I don't teach regular classes so I'm just cyber-storming here and I've not tested this -- viewer discretion is advised. What if you took one beginner or beginner 2 class (your most accessible) and renamed it something long and impressive like fundamentals/drills/assessment... when you have a student whose taken elsewhere and wants to jump levels ask them to take their first class with you in that class (one time only) so that you can assess placement (especially as every instructor uses a different skill-set for advancement) then you can properly direct them to which class will be the best fit. Drive it hard on those evenings that you have those individuals... Again, I've no idea if it will work but I had the thought and decided to throw it out there. Offering a class with a 'drills' focus could also drive some of your upper level students to drop in to clean up their basics with some drills without feeling like their moving back down the ladder...
Blessings,
Rach

My rule is that even if you have taken classes before, you still have to take *at least* 1 session of my Beginning class before going on to Level 2.

I explain that not only do different teachers in the area teach different moves/material, but we also tend to call things different names. I tell them that in order to not hold the other current Level 2 students back, new students have to know everything that I teach in Beginning and what I call it. I'm not going to waste class time explaining that my "small hip circle" is completely horizontal, whereas a former teacher may have used that term to describe a completely different move (like an ommi).

It seems like before I moved up to intermediate class, we had to have instructor approval. Nobody could just walk in and sign up.

Originally Posted by acmcgraw

I've heard of upper levels only being open to those who audition/test for them...could you do that? (like martial arts belts...I can se it now...beaded belt, copper coin, silver coin, gold coin, then SPARKLY!!!)

Maybe I haven't had enough sleep today

This is really a fun idea!

I just label my classes "Foundations", "Layering & Refinement" and "Advanced Concepts". They have to be in a specific level for at least two sessions and have meet certain requirements. Not because they have to be perfect, but because the topics taught they will need to get by in Advanced Concepts. They'd be totally lost without technical ability and understanding of various rhythms, styles and finger cymbals.

There are other great teachers in the area, but my style of movement and teaching is substantially different. So, if a dancer comes to me from another teacher, I explain this and start her in the foundations class. That way I can move her up if it's in her best interest. I'd rather move her up than ask her to step back. Getting in the advanced class would be tougher - some of my girls would be annoyed if they felt they were being held back to accommodate a less experienced dancer, I think. (Understandably so)

Originally Posted by Nisima

I think it is a better approach to not be restrictive, let 'em in, and just don't dumb down the class. That's fair to everyone and the student can't really complain (except for those students who complain about everything and that's a different thread.)

That's pretty much where I'm at now. I do try my best to channel students into the level that's appropriate for them. It's just always tough having that conversation with a student - the "why you really belong in a different level" conversation. But I have to have it, and more often than not, it's with students who are coming from particular teachers in my area.

Right now I have 3 proficiency levels: Level 1 is open to all and is essentially a "fundamentals" class. Level 2 has a prerequisite: Level 1 or instructor permission. Level 3 is by instructor permission only. I am exploring the idea of drills classes (going to be starting a Level 1 "drills" class and a level 2 "drills" class soon to provide that extra intermediary step between the main levels and a place to channel new students who I need to assess before placing them in a higher level).

I guess where I have had the most trouble is at my community college location. (In my other classes, where I directly control registration, I keep a very tight rein on my enrollment.) The prerequisites are listed in the college's brochure and on my web site, and MOST of the registration staff are diligent about verifying whether new students have my permission before signing them up for Level 2 or Level 3. But from time to time they aren't as diligent. And occasionally students have actually lied to the registration staff and claimed they got my approval, and staff have taken them at face value and admitted them into the class.

Really, though, the root of the problem is what students are/aren't learning in what are supposed to be "higher level" classes by other teachers. This is something I know I can't control. But when you have some individuals in the area teaching BAD technique, propelling students through levels and onto the stage, and offering nothing but glowing praise and affirmation to these students, well, it just means this problem is never going to go away.

Nisaa

I can se it now...beaded belt, copper coin, silver coin, gold coin, then SPARKLY!!!)

I know that was meant as a joke, but I do know a teacher who names different levels after jewels (topaz, citrine, amethyst, etc.) & awards a bracelet in the appropriate colour upon completion of a level. On the other hand, I know that one of her instructors for a while was a dancer with whom I danced in a beginner-intermediate class the year before & while she was a good dancer she was not at an advanced or instructor-level (IMO), so I'm not sure that all those jewelled levels are necessarily an indication of rigour.

I think it's tough, though. The beginner classes are generally easy to fill, but sometimes the higher level classes are not so easy to fill with enough students to make it financially viable for the instructor. My instructor tries to offer two days/times per week for the higher-level students, but she really has only enough dedicated, regular people for one class per week. If she runs only one class per week, though, she loses some of her higher-level students who can't all make it the same night. So, she fills the classes with people who aren't quite at that level--some of her quick beginners from her previous semester--& works to bring them up to that level. It does mean that things don't progress as quickly as some of us would like, but the drills & repetition don't hurt any of us, & that's how I, myself, started in that class.

Both my instructors will refuse to take a student in an intermediate/advanced class if they feel that student really isn't ready, though.

When I started with Tribal with a new instructor last year, I started with a beginner class & rightly so, IMO. The moves are different, the vocabulary is different, & the whole concept of cued improv was new to me. So, I do understand the idea that an intermediate student with one instructor or style of bellydance is not necessarily an intermediate student with another instructor/style. I'm now in her Intermediate/Advanced class, but only because she didn't have enough continuing students to run a separate advanced class (& not because I'm an advanced student).

Now, after rambling on, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say. I guess it's that I think it's well within the instructor's right to set "prerequisites" for higher level classes. In fact, perhaps the website or brochure should state that outright, e.g. "Prerequisite: at least one session in our Level 1 class & recommendation of your instructor, or by audition." However, I think the marketplace can & does play a role sometimes. Depending on the area, one might not always have enough students at a specific level to run a class at all, unless the one opens it up to some of the more advanced students at the lower level. And maybe that's what happens sometimes with students being "too quickly" promoted by other instructors.

And, I guess, the rest of my point is that, as a student, I'd rather put up with some repetition etc. than not have a class at all, because there aren't enough people registered to run one.

One of my teachers here has an invite only on her Inter. and advanced classes. And she sticks to that.

{{{HUGS}}}

When I started with a new instructor, it was explained that EVERYONE (no matter how many years dancing) started in the Beginner class not only for the terminology, but also for the group choreographies that are used at festivals. It was also explained that if I knew the terminology and the proper technique (after taking several lessons), I could be evaluated and it would be possible to take both the Beginner and Advanced 1 level classes simultaneously.

That seemed a very fair compromise and so that is what I did.

Thanks, I just read the other thread related to this and my responce was just this. :p To keep it shorter, I moved from one area to another. There are many bellydance instructors here. I didn't know where to begin. One instructor told me Intermediate classes would be good for me.

I did explain to her that I took Oriental, my instructor teaches Lebanese bellydance. I wasn't sure what level I was at. I took bellydance for 7 years and ballet for 2 years. But I do understand that there are many different types of this dance and I am sure some dancers have been doing this longer. For example, she teaches Middle Eastern bellydance. There could be differences that I was never taught. Hope you catch my drift.

So thanks, I will start at the beginner level, to see where I am at.

I completely agree with the range in levels of instruction in this area. Unfortunately, I think you are SOL at the college. Since the prereqs are on your info and the school's, it isn't your fault if a student overestimates her ability. I wouldn't let the one person affect the level of instruction, though. You can speak to her privately and give her the option of switching to the other class. If it fits in her schedule and space permits, it doesn't seem necessary to inform the school.

I would be hard-nosed at your studio, though, requiring all new students that you don't know to take at least one class at the beginner level. That class is for them to assess you and your teaching style/terminology as well as for you to see what skills they have. Explain that everyone has to do it and it is by no means a reflection on their ability or previous instruction. Being firm with students is part of what the problem is here. Some teachers are only wanting their students to have a good time that they don't want to face the unpleasant aspects of teaching - including telling someone they need work or aren't qualified to dance at X event. In the long run, I think it's a disservice to the student although they might not see it that way right now.

Just a consideration, have you considered an "accelerated" beginner course that is "for serious dancers only." Make it as much like a boot camp as possible with lots and lots of drills and really high expectations. I know that sometimes, experienced dancers from other areas can get bored quickly with a regular beginners course. (Especially if there are a lot of people taking it "just for fun.") Sometimes, beginner courses move a little slow for serious dancers with experience.

I agree that when you move to a new instructor, you need to go to a beginner class to get a good foundation on her style and language, but it can be very frustrating when you already know what a hip circle is and the teacher is spending inordinate amounts of time on that - especially if you want to be challenged.

Here is the thing with a "boot camp" set up, you can set it up and tell folks that 50% or more will fail this or quit before it is over. Make it really hard - but cover all your basics and vocabulary in the way a serious dancer would. Now, if your beginner classes are already set up that way, this won't make sense, but I know I find a lot of beginner classes are made up of folks who are there because of the "harem mystique" and not to seriously dance.

mlowsey, that is a fabulous idea - I would so have taken that option if I could have.