Thread: Question regarding acceptability of dance movement

I've got a question that's critical to my instructor's comment (not Faten, of course). She told us one day that doing a hip circle that tucks the tummy is considered vulgar in Egyptian dance. I personally call it the small hip circle when the knees are closer together and the tummy tucks when circling the hips to the front. It's powered from the knees. Now, I've seen Egyptian dancers doing this to some extent, plus I've done it, though I've learned a different way. She says it's fine in Cabaret and tribal, but not traditional Egyptian. I'm not disagreeing with her, but I just want to make sure I have the facts straight.

BDF

(BTW, she teaches Cabaret.)

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

I've got a question that's critical to my instructor's comment (not Faten, of course). She told us one day that doing a hip circle that tucks the tummy is considered vulgar in Egyptian dance. I personally call it the small hip circle when the knees are closer together and the tummy tucks when circling the hips to the front. It's powered from the knees. Now, I've seen Egyptian dancers doing this to some extent, plus I've done it, though I've learned a different way. She says it's fine in Cabaret and tribal, but not traditional Egyptian. I'm not disagreeing with her, but I just want to make sure I have the facts straight.

BDF

(BTW, she teaches Cabaret.)

Are you talking about a corkscrew? I´m trying to picture what movement you are describing, but I´m not sure exactly what movement this is And also what are you thinking about when you refer to traditional Egyptian. Folklore?

If we are thinking about the same I haven´t seen it used much in folklore, but I don´t have a clue if it is considered vulgar.

Is it an ommi?

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

I've got a question that's critical to my instructor's comment (not Faten, of course). She told us one day that doing a hip circle that tucks the tummy is considered vulgar in Egyptian dance. I personally call it the small hip circle when the knees are closer together and the tummy tucks when circling the hips to the front. It's powered from the knees. Now, I've seen Egyptian dancers doing this to some extent, plus I've done it, though I've learned a different way. She says it's fine in Cabaret and tribal, but not traditional Egyptian. I'm not disagreeing with her, but I just want to make sure I have the facts straight.

BDF

(BTW, she teaches Cabaret.)

If this is a tilting circle - that is you extend your back at the back and flex it at the front, I have also heard it is not really part of the dance vocab from Dr Mo Geddawi. He calls this an "African circle" and says that only the "Oriental circle" - what I call a flat, horizontal circle is traditionally part of (Egyptian) dance. He didn't say anything about it being considered vulgar however, just not traditional.

Is "cabaret" American bellydance? What dances specifically is your teacher referring to when she says "traditional Egyptian"?

If the move you mean is the one I'm thinking of then I consider it part of my Egyptian dance repertoire... but not for all styles of Egyptian dance :-)

Originally Posted by kashmir

If this is a tilting circle - that is you extend your back at the back and flex it at the front, I have also heard it is not really part of the dance vocab from Dr Mo Geddawi. He calls this an "African circle" and says that only the "Oriental circle" - what I call a flat, horizontal circle is traditionally part of (Egyptian) dance. He didn't say anything about it being considered vulgar however, just not traditional.

Does this mean that the butt is going to be raised up in the back?

A youtube video would help.

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

I've got a question that's critical to my instructor's comment (not Faten, of course). She told us one day that doing a hip circle that tucks the tummy is considered vulgar in Egyptian dance. I personally call it the small hip circle when the knees are closer together and the tummy tucks when circling the hips to the front. It's powered from the knees. Now, I've seen Egyptian dancers doing this to some extent, plus I've done it, though I've learned a different way. She says it's fine in Cabaret and tribal, but not traditional Egyptian. I'm not disagreeing with her, but I just want to make sure I have the facts straight.

BDF

(BTW, she teaches Cabaret.)

She's wrong. Sohair Zaki does them, Nagua Fouad does them, Fifi does them, Mona Said does them, Dina does them, Randa does them, Dandash does them.

Raqia also does them and calls them "African" circles, but says all Egyptian dancers do them. They are, in fact, a perfectly acceptable part of Egyptian dance.

Shareen teaches a hip circle where the movement to the back is driven by pulling in with the abs and the movement to the front by pushing forward with the glutes. I've also seen an almost flat circle where the front is tucked and the rest of the circle is flat (as opposed to the omi where everything aspect is on ball bearings).

One of my teachers says that no one ever uses omis in oriental dance, which is incorrect. I just listen and ignore that one. Omis are my fall back hip circle. I have lordosis and one hip higher than the other so they just are the most natural and comfortale for me.

Souzan

Sahra Saeeda commented on this a few times. She went into detail about the movement changing with the times; Naima and Samia for example would always start their hip circles to the front and ignore the whole back part - the butt-up back part being considered vulgar at the time. The next generation would throw their hips WAY back (think Dina) and kind of ignore or pass through the front of the circle, as the front part was too sexual in the latter half of the century. I believe doing that type of pelvic-tilt circle with the legs open is still considered a bit vulgar, although they are still used...and Raqia Hassan uses them in her choreographies.

Nasila you are right about what Sahra said! Just one addition. The classical dancers did their hipcircles to the front but they also bent their knees when coming forward so the pelvis is never pointing straight forward.

There are 2 seperate issues here.
1-what is acceptable
2-what Egyptians naturally do

for example, Egyptians naturally do a figure 8 starting dow coming up. They never naturally do it the other direction (Maya) but that does not mean that maybe some Egyptian dancer somewhere saw it, learned it and added it to her repertoire.

Now, as far as whats acceptable...
It is never acceptable to do any movement when the pelvis is pointing straight forward.

I have a feeling that this is what Faten might have been trying to get across.
Now you may have seen some dancers do this, but that doesnt mean its acceptable. There are alot of dancers out there that do things that are unacceptable. And some who are very rich and famous that can do whatever they want but that doesnt mean that we can do it.

I think if we have teachers who are respectable and know the culture such as Faten and Sahra ( too name just a few), then we should trust in what they are trying to teach us.

Also -dance is a living thing as is culture and things change. We have to keep in mind what is culturally acceptable in today's culture.


***Pelvis pointing forward-no,no,no!!!***

Roxxanne, can you give an example of a movement where the pelvis is pointing straight forward? I'm having trouble imagining what you are talking about.

Wow, I'm going to try to answer all of your questions. Please excuse me if I don't.

Firstly, like I made clear in my first post, this instructor IS NOT Faten, Roxxanne. I know she knows what she's talking about. Sorry for the confusion there.

This instructor describes her style as Egyptian Cabaret. Those are her exact words.

When she says traditional Egyptian style, what she means (what I'm interpeting exactly by her responses) is anything a native Egyptian dancer does.

Movements are so hard to describe in writing! Okay, so it's basically a ommi, but the hips swing out a little farther in one way she teaches it, then the other is an ommi. So basically I am asking about both. If you'd freeze when going to the back, the butt would only be slightly up and most of the "vulgarity" is when the stomach tucks in deep. The other one she teaches she says is the "proper" one done by Egyptian dancers. That one is making a "D" with the hips. I don't think I'm contradicting myself here, but let me know if anything is unclear.

Ssipes, I'm pretty sure she's wrong! LOL I've seen the same dancers do this movement too. Actually, some of the movements she does disturbs me, and I'd think be considered vulgar.

Thank you for all the feedback so far!

i'm in agreement with most on this thread, video contradicts her statement, as does current instruction, i.e. mme. raqia hassan's 'africans', and aida noor did the same in a latin tinged choreo she taught in NY........they were small, tight, and not the least bit 'vulgar' (by OUR standards anyway :p)

Originally Posted by roxxanne

for example, Egyptians naturally do a figure 8 starting dow coming up. They never naturally do it the other direction (Maya) but that does not mean that maybe some Egyptian dancer somewhere saw it, learned it and added it to her repertoire.

I don't think this is example is really accurate. It is my understanding that the downward 8 was done in Egypt, then it fell out of fashion and some dancers brought it back later, like Lucy I heard was doing them again. (I believe I heard Sahra talking about it, but I could be wrong about my source.)

Anyway, the dancer Maya that the move was named after, wasn't she an Egyptian dancer? I don't know this, but I believe I was told she was either Egyptian or Arab.

As for tilting hip circles, inner hip circles, ummis or whatever you call them, I think they are very classy when done with your legs together and it seems to me that just about every Oriental dancer worth talking about in Egypt does some version of them.

<3

Originally Posted by ssipes

She's wrong. Sohair Zaki does them, Nagua Fouad does them, Fifi does them, Mona Said does them, Dina does them, Randa does them, Dandash does them.
Raqia also does them and calls them "African" circles, but says all Egyptian dancers do them. They are, in fact, a perfectly acceptable part of Egyptian dance.

Originally Posted by ruta21030

i'm in agreement with most on this thread, video contradicts her statement, as does current instruction, i.e. mme. raqia hassan's 'africans', and aida noor did the same in a latin tinged choreo she taught in NY........they were small, tight, and not the least bit 'vulgar' (by OUR standards anyway :p)

Originally Posted by shems

...
As for tilting hip circles, inner hip circles, ummis or whatever you call them, I think they are very classy when done with your legs together and it seems to me that just about every Oriental dancer worth talking about in Egypt does some version of them.
<3

What they said. ..g.:
I'm actually not quite sure if you're referring to "interior hip circles" (AKA African hip circles) - little tilty circles done right underneath you or "big hip circles" - that Dina does to the back a whole lot and Naima Akef, Tahiya Karioka (and others) tended to do them with more emphasis to the front. Either way- We have evidence of Native Egyptians doing both kinds.
Yasmin (DC) teaches them as well often citing different dancers and different time periods for different styles of performing the movement.

This is a really good example of why it's so important to take from multiple instructors. You have a greater frame of reference to "pick and choose" what information is accurate and you've developed resources for checking things.

ok now its my turn to clarify and respond...

1) My comment about the figure8 and the Maya comes from Sahra. This is how she explains it.

2) Maya was actually Syrian. She danced at the Fez, my father's nightclub.

3)Shems you mentioned seeing some Egyptian dancer, maybe Lucy doing the Maya. This is my point exactly. Most Egyptian women, when dancing naturally would not do they Maya, they would do the figure 8 from down to up. But maybe this dancer saw someone do it, or was experimenting with her own movement and included into her repertoire-but it is not natural to her.

4) Bellydancingfanatic-thanks for clarifying the Fatens!! I wasnt exactly just reffering to your comment but making a point about teachers in general.

5)Ssipes- I guess an example of a move with the pelvis pointing straight forward would be a hipcircle where the hips push through the front. Or pushing the pelvis straight forward-we do it with one hip and thats ok, but pushing both sides forward at the same time is vulgar. ( I dont know its so hard to explain movement in writing!!!)

6) ***My personal opinion***any movement that anyone teaches you, no matter who they are, if you feel its vulgar TO YOU then DONT do it!!! Your going to transmit your feelings about it when you perform the movement and then your audience will get the vibe that its vulgar as well.

Hope Im making some sense :P

Another clarification about when I was explaining the movement...

The omi, a tight hip circle done internally or right underneath yourself is ok but if your hips are moving in a bigger circle like its off your axis and your pelvis is pointing straight forward-not ok!

Originally Posted by roxxanne

5)Ssipes- I guess an example of a move with the pelvis pointing straight forward would be a hipcircle where the hips push through the front. Or pushing the pelvis straight forward-we do it with one hip and thats ok, but pushing both sides forward at the same time is vulgar. ( I dont know its so hard to explain movement in writing!!!)

sorry, I'm really not being intentionally obtuse, but how does one execute a hip circle but skip the front part? All the Egyptian dances do big hip circles and if we can say one thing about these circles, it is that they have integrity -- they always complete the circle (Dina's half circle butt waggling aside). So whether they start from the front (as some of the golden era dancers did), the side, or the back, they are going to bring the hips through the front of the circle where the pelvis is pushed forward of the body. Obviously, if one stopped and posed with the hips pushed forward, that would be vulgar but is that what we are talking about?

I'm pretty sure she's referring to a hybrid sort of movement, where the hips tilt like an omi/internal circle but the axis of rotation ALSO travels:
[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=tIIVFhHVdjw]YouTube - Amira Mor - Hip Circle Demonstration[/ame]

RE: Amira Mor clip

But then its a matter of everything about those circles being technically poor. Its not just the forward part that makes those unEgyptian. The back part is no good and the legs apart (at least on some of the students) are no good. If you pulled the front part in those circles would still not look good.

I get the point but I think Americans tend to be prudes about certain things. I think it is actually we who have issues with our pelvises, also with moves like shoulder shimmies where the breasts are supposed to move, yet witness untold leagues of belly dance teachers across the US chanting the mantra "its a shoulder shimmy not a boob shimmy". They justify by saying they don't want their students to shimmy like strippers, but in fact its the posture, not the movement of the breasts that makes that difference.

<tiptoes in>

I watched that clip and within three seconds my back was in agony -- and I'm sitting down!

I raise my hand in contrition that I purchased one of her videos once; it was very cheap at Ross and I like to see how different people approach video production/teaching.

I-was-absolutely-horrified.

.w.:

<tiptoes out>

Deborah

I have also heard what Nasila said. That either the front half or the back half of the flat hip circle was considered inappropriate at different times in Egypt. This is regardless of execution, foot placement, whatever. Just something the "morality police" would pick on.

Originally Posted by ssipes

RE: Amira Mor clip

But then its a matter of everything about those circles being technically poor. Its not just the forward part that makes those unEgyptian. The back part is no good and the legs apart (at least on some of the students) are no good. If you pulled the front part in those circles would still not look good.

I get the point but I think Americans tend to be prudes about certain things. I think it is actually we who have issues with our pelvises, also with moves like shoulder shimmies where the breasts are supposed to move, yet witness untold leagues of belly dance teachers across the US chanting the mantra "its a shoulder shimmy not a boob shimmy". They justify by saying they don't want their students to shimmy like strippers, but in fact its the posture, not the movement of the breasts that makes that difference.

I agree, a few of the students have their legs open which makes the move look kind of vulgar.
Bad posture and technique can make the dance look unintendedly pornish.

Originally Posted by ssipes

how does one execute a hip circle but skip the front part? All the Egyptian dances do big hip circles and if we can say one thing about these circles, it is that they have integrity -- they always complete the circle

I'm not Sahra or Roxxanne (though I'd give my eyeteeth to dance like either one) but as I understand from Sahra's workshops, they don't always, or didn't always, complete the big hip circle. So in an era when it's considered improper to push your pelvis forward, the path of the "circle" is flattened out in the front so that it looks more like a D with the rounded part to the back. When pushing your hips to the back wasn't the done thing, the path resembled a D with the rounded part to the front and the back part flattened out. By "flattened out" I mean that instead of following the curve of a complete circle in front of or behind your center, the hips travel in a straighter line from one side of you to the other, cutting off the part of the circle that is thought to look improper. Your center is essentially in the middle of the straight stroke of the D in both cases.

Does that help illustrate the point? It's clear in my head, perhaps less so onscreen!

Also, as I understand it you weren't only supposed to avoid posing with your pelvis pushed forward. Even if someone snapped a photo of you in motion as you passed through the front curve of the circle and just happened to catch you with your pelvis forward, this was enough to lead to a trip to the offices of the morality enforcers. So it was easier just not to do the circle that way -- the quote in my notes is "it's only a dance move, not worth getting in trouble for!"

Please note that this is based only on what I understand from Sahra's descriptions at several workshops. I have no firsthand knowledge of the situation. I believe my recollection is true to the material as she presents it but I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, Roxxanne!

Zana - I understood it basically the same. the other interesting part of this, though, is that if you are doing this move - and several others - away from the audience, you can get away with the full hip circle.


I was also taught that the classic arm pattern - hands in front of pelvis when it was forward, over chest when pelvis was back - was in part to keep the morality police from saying anything. Afterall, if it was covered, can you really say it was forward?

The other thing to remember is this: we are NOT in Egypt or any other ME country. How important is it to dance exactly like an Egyptian?

But you may not want to listen to me. I'm a little bit of a dance mutt.

{{{HUGS}}}

Wow, ok..that clip...perfect illustration of what I believe to be unacceptable because of the pelvis pushing forward through the circle!

Zana, you are completely right and expressed it perfectly. The Egyptian hip circle done and accepted currently (as explained by Sahra) starts to the side, goes all the way around the back to the opposite side and then back up (like the letter D). And different dancers have their own way of finishing off the circle, none of which includes the front part of the circle.
And you are cute :) Thanks for the compliment!

And yes in the classical era they would never do the hip circle to the back the way we do now.

Again, I tell this to my students all the time, "if you feel uncomfortable with the movement DONT DO IT!!"

There are people who feel that sticking their butt all the way out and practically bending all the way over (like Dina for example) is not comfortable to them. So I always suggest doing the movement to the extend you feel comfortable.

I will stick to my original opinion that pointing the pelvis completely forward either in a pelvic pop or pushing forward through a hip circle is a no-no in Egyptian style. Not to mention I dont think its particularly attractive.

As far as dancing like an Egyptian or being in a ME country or not, I think its important that there are dancers that want to know and understand what is real and authentic and culturally acceptable. This dance did not develop in a vacuum. It is part of a culture which influences it. Once you know what's what, you can do what you want-But if you are representing me and my culture and my artform, then I hope you would try to know what its all about!

By the way, did you see the move the redhead does at 2:15?

Originally Posted by Bellissima

By the way, did you see the move the redhead does at 2:15?

That's HOT!
Pretty much all of her dancing throughout the improv was a chiropractor's dream, and I just hurt from watching her.

By the way - she's in an orange costume. You can't miss her hip twisting around the room at warp speed with butt cheek-a-flashing.

I think the pelvis pushing forward during an ommi can be caused by two things 1) powering with the legs as opposed to the abdominals and 2) clenching the glutes at the front of the circle.

I teach the ommi as an up hip (side), then a pelvic tilt in (front), up hip on the other hip (side), then a release back to neutral (back). When demonstrating a pelvic tilt in, I make a point to tell my students they should be tilting the pelvis by drawing in with their lower abdominals, not squeezing their glutes and making the pelvis pop forward in reaction. When you do a glute powered pelvic tilt, the pelvis goes up and forward, rather than a controlled tilt inward. And if you do a tilt in quickly using your glutes, it looks like a bump and grind thrusting rather than a precise and dignified articulation.

When teaching ommis, I do a lot of demonstrating of "good" and "bad" techinique. I have to say that the clip above looks like me when I demonstrate poor ommi technique - feet too far apart, butt swinging back & up as opposed to releasing to neutral, and just in general being executed with momentum rather than muscle control.

THANK YOU for that clip Lauren! I think that's what my instructor is talking about, despite the bad technique of Amira's student's circles. Imagine they were done correctly....then imagine there is more "tuck" of the stomach when the hips come forward...at the same time imagine the hips swinging out as much as a regular hipcircle. That's it, BUT, I think what makes it "vulgar" in her mind is the legs being wide open and the "tuck" itself. She does it, and justifies it by saying it's "Egyptian Cabaret" not "traditional" Egyptian, so it's okay. ????????

I just keep my legs together and ignore that part. I hope I'm not confusing anyone, but I know that in the back of mind that's wrong. I wanted to make sure, though.