Thread: Question for troupe leaders or members ...maybe a rant too

I am starting to dislike the attitude of 2 of the members of my troupe.
My collegue ask me to take over as a teacher at that dnce school and with the job came the responsability to built a troupe again. I wasnt crazy about the idea but i took the challenge and build some choreographies with the troupe in mind.
all students left with my collegue , except 3 who decided to stay with me. I later heard they had a conflict with their former teacher.

I am starting to worry seriously that 2 ( maybe 3 ) students are in the troupe for the wrong reasons.
I think you should be in a troupe if you want to have fun with others, learn a wider repertoire of dances and work at a higher level.

in the tread teachers dancing with students about 10 days ago i taked about how this dance school does their show.

and I observed a great deal last Saturday. a very very interesting thing , all teachers danced with their students , and even when there were 20 students + musicians + teacher you felt there was room for more dancers . they were having fun all together ,teacher +musicians +students, it was amazing.

my begginers group and i had a great time and we had fun. we were doing 2 shows in a row they asked me to do both shows we practiced together and did a nice performance as a group.

now the troupe members were so strange, ready to ignore the other students while performing in their regular class, they only worried about being seen, only 5 of them but not enough space on the stage @!!&@% what ??? this is the same stage where 20 students just did a dance from Senegal...i didnt hear them complain.!!! the troupe , except for 1 , didnt bother to sit and look at any numbers from the other classes so i guess they wouldnt notice the difference.

now friday , when i said that i wnted to bring in 2 more people in the troupe , one immediatel replied that before they use to be 9 and that was too much !

grrrrrr, at the dance school the other troupe all have between 10-18 people so how can 6 or 7 be too much. anyway i think it is their ego taking too much room on stage.

rant finished. now comes the question:

1-did you have talks about attitude with your teacher /students?

2-would it be unprofessional for me to call up their former teacher and ask if she encoutered the same attitude problem ( for the 2 who were with the teacher who was the troupe leader before) ?
3- i dont want to tell them they are not good or make them feel bad, but i want them to know i dislike the attitude when they think they are so much better than everyone else at the school ( cause they dont seem to appreciate any other dance performances ) and especially dont want them to think they are better compared o the other bdance students, except for one that is more advanced ,they have lots to learn + work on .
4-I feel the problem is bigger with 2 of them , should i take each aside or just talk t them as a group so they all hear the same thing ?

(cont'd)
I want to question what is more important to them : learning as much as they can about dances from the mIdlle-east or being in the best position on stage so people can see them.

if they want to be divas they could go to other teachers that are good at being and creating divas, i am just allergic to them : (


My goal for the troupe is to develop the same spirit that i see from the other troupes in the school ( west african dances, gumboot, east african dances and percussions)
I once tried a troupe , didnt like it because i dislike choreographies and didnt have time for the extra practices, so i saw it wasnt for me and i left . I liked taking classes and performing with them and seriously couldnt have cared less if was in the back or the front.

I can only add that I agree with your troupemates that 9 is a difficult number to work with. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a troupe of over maybe 6 or 7 maximum. With each added person, the amount of work needed to synchronize movements and clean up choreography increases exponentially.

I think all dancers are driven in part by ego. What is wrong with wanting to be seen? I like being a soloist, and I like being part of a 5 member troupe where each person can be seen and retains some individuality even as we mesh as group. I have no interest in being an anonymous unseen face in a huge chorus line.

Perhaps that makes me a Diva also.

It does sound as though you have different goals and objectives than your troupe members, but please don't vilify them for wanting something different than you do.

I hope it is not considered unprofessional to talk to other teachers about students you have/had in common, becuase I did it all the time as a high school teacher. It gives you more insight into the person to know how they working in a different environment with different people.

I've been in a troupe, sort of, where everyone seemed to have slightly different goals, and we rarely danced anywhere. Hence, troupe only kinda exists right now. I'd say a group meeting at least to discuss goals would be good. I know we need one. I LOVE dancing with a group, but I also want to be challenged.

Yes I think definitely you should have a troupe meeting where everyone get to state their goals and reasons for being in the troupe.
I recently joined a new formed troupe and I'm thrilled to be part of a groupe, to work together towards something, as my other job can be kind of lonely sometimes, but I do not wish to be a "robot" without individuality. As the dance originally is a solo dance I want to be able to keep my own style, expression and some solo time but still be part of a whole.

If you find out that some of your students are really eager to show off then maybe you can create some choreos where there's room for solos or different constellations? Maybe this way you can satisfy all wishes.

If students are ambitious there's no need to hold them down. Give them a challenge instead so that they have a possibility to grow and become as good as they might think they already are

There are 9 girls in my troupe and I really like it! There are plenty of performance opportunities in the area, but not everyone can commit to dancing at any specific venue due to family and other responsibilities. Totally normal and understandable!

Anyhow, unless it is a big event I don't want them to have to rearrange their lives. My goal is for them to have fun with our endeavors as a troupe - I don't want them to be stressed out trying to accommodate every single practice or performance. They simply commit to what interests them and they are able. (Although, I have recently decided that if they've committed to a specific performance, they HAVE to attend the rehearsals preceding it).

If you have fewer troupe members, the odds are higher of winding up with no performers or duets and trios...

As for being divas - why not give them all a shot at being in the front through various formations throughout the performance?

Everyone has different reasons for wanting to be on stage. A little limelight is fun, but I think the Diva thing is mainly inexperience talking... being in the limelight loses its appeal after a while, and only those truly interested in the dance will be in it for the long run.

I wouldn't worry about their issues with adding other girls to the troupe. If they have unreasonable issues with how you're handling things and are being petty? Well, they always have the option to leave. It's important they feel they can talk to you and have their issues addressed, but nobody needs unnecessary headaches or tension in the troupe.

Thank you for takling the time to answer , i really need to see the point of view of others on this issue.

i think it was such a slap in the face to see the difference in attitude between the BD troupe and all the others at the dance show, I was a little ashamed. I didnt reflect my way seeing things. and it made me sad that they might not care that much about Middle eastern dance after all.

I see a huge differnece in attitude when i go to hip hop or krumping, where the spirit is soooo different .

something happened the day before the show that made me worried, when we rehearsed the girls from the troupe also perform with their regular class , the 5 had decided to dress a certain way ...that made me realize how much they dont consider the other students , i always have to encourage the students that are not in the troupe to perform , because they are a little intimidated and i tell them they should because they are good , and i really mean it.
so I told the troupe firmly that it was inacceptable to decide on a costume if you didnt discuss it in class when all students are present, they have to stop ignoring the other students .
cause they have been at it for a long time but they are not that far ahead from other students,
lets take example of zills they were so sure you could only play triplets until te end of time and maybe baladi from time to time ....
NOT ! so i started seeing with the group different rhythms every class, I have 2 students who are musicians ,only been with me for 2 semesters but they are good cause they take 5 -6 classes a week ( 2 with me and 2 gumboots and 2 different types of african dance) and they can dance and play zills way better than the girls in the troupe.


I have mentioned a few times that we shouldnt speak about the troupe in regular class, just e-mail cause i didnt want the other students to feel left out. they kinda follow that rule.

For positions on stage,

I dont always have the same in the front i vary, but like at the december show , there was only 4 on stage , one who had missed 4 rehearsals i put in the back automaticaly, she started mumbling about how she likes to be center front , I ignored her comments like i didnt hear them cause she wasnt speaking to me directly (grrrr you miss that many rehearsals and i am sorry but your are not center front), and who cares ? if there are 3 or 4 of you on stage it doesnt matter , everyone will see you. and she was in a sword trio number later in the show were people would see her.

i want to get more people in cause i think folkloric dances look way better with 10 people on stage than with just 4 , the energy is different.

maybe more fokloric will develop their sense of community more ? maybe i am just too idealistic ....,f::
and like adishakti said there is always someone missing at a show so if we are 7 next year we could be sure to have a minimum of 5 or 6 on stage even if someone cant make it.

I feel your pain....other than that..I got nothin'.

I'm failing to see the problem, to be honest. What it sounds like, given what little info I have, is that you see things differently than the majority of the troupe. Maybe they resent you for some reason or maybe they are just closer for some other reason.

I am not clear if you are the troupe director or just a member.

If you are the director--the word "direct" is right there in the title and there are some things you can control. If the troupe gets bigger, that's your call. If someone comes to perform and misses multiple practices, she's out. You cannot get the glory without paying your dues and you can't come in and mess up a performance that others have practiced for diligently. You just have to uphold the expectations and let the grumpy, bitchy behavior take care of itself. If you don't allow it, then it will eventually cease and the good ones will stay and be glad you cut through the b.s.!

Don't let people push you around. Talk to them directly--try to stay as positive as you can in the way you phrase things--like the costume matching and the zills. Don't say, "X is unacceptable" say "I want us to be coordinated here's how we're going to do it" or "I would like us to play something different on zills, here's a new pattern..."

I am their teacher , and I am the troupe director .

I am not a competitive person, or a very ambitious one. I just like hard work and do my job well. I dont relate or understand competitve thinking well.

my goal with them is to represent as well as we can a variety of dances from the Mid east.

so i was wondering if the majority of people in a troupe are just thinking and worrying about where they are located on stage ? maybe it is none of my business and 90% of people think like that then i will let it be. so i accept it as it is or just dont bother with the troupe.

when i tell them to move a bit on the right cause the last girl there is going to end up in the curtians, the first thing i hear, yeah but then she will be in front of me ..cr.:

i tought about giving them tiny solos in our last piece but because of time limits at the school show ( 3 minutes for each class + 5 minutes for each troupe) i went for the group choreography without the solos , maybe that was a mistake. so i will try to find a shorter piece that will allow that.

I personaly think about the music and i am in the moment on stage, in a group i think of the group result and group energy, music+ having fun, i love to dance. perform as a group of 5 , instead of being 1+1+1+1+1.


a couple of years ago i was in a dance production, in the final piece the choreographer asked me to do a backbend and some floorwork , it was a tiny thing less than 30 sec thing. then asked me to be squat in the center for the end. ..c:: i was thinking noooooooooooooooo, but i didnt argue and just did it , we were all close together 10 dancers doing the same hand movements for the finale.
at the last rehearsal unfortunately i was apparently 2 inches a little in front of a contemporary dancer , she pushed me hard out of her way ( me stumbling and hitting 2 others in the process) !!! and all i could think was how sad that all she had in mind was that she had to be seen for that 10 seconds.
I didnt say anything cause i didnt want to make the choreographer or group nervous 1 hour before the show, all i could think when i danced the finale at the shows was staying out of that crazy dancers way , but all i wished was to be the last in the back.
she had duets and was the lead dancer in one of the main numbers so not like she wasnt "seen" . plain sad .
i made a promise to myself to stop dancing if i ever become like that, so it makes me sad to see my students being so worried about these things and wanting too much space on stage....just wondering if other people had similar issues in their troupes.

i think i might go and ask to observe at a few rehearsals from the other troupes at the school.

I'm guessing you all are adults, right? Even though you may be "grown up", sometimes people still like to test your authority. Is this one of those situations?

While I do agree about the number of people thing, the whole center of attention thing seems dumb, unless they are never being seen well. You need to emphasize that while you appreciate their hard work, that you all need to work collectively as a group and not think of me, me, me. Perhaps show them other troupes, really well-regarded ones, and show that it's simply not possible to always be the focus of attention. I would also tell them that as a compromise, you'll perhaps do some duet things or brief soloist interludes for the troupe.

They may choose to leave, to work on solo or duet things. That's their right, but you also have a right to direct the kind of troupe you want to have.

I'm sorry about your situation :(. I would've said something, because pushing me out of the way is physically harmful. What if you would've broken something?

You know it sounds to me like they are being total brats. If I was in a show and felt I wasnt getting enough of the limelight, I most likely wouldn't mention it, because it's rude and self centred. If I thought about it and decided I needed to say something, I would say it quietly to one side, not in the middle of rehearsal as a public whinge.

I'm not at all experienced enough to advise, but if I were in a parallel situation I would probably tell them to like it or lump it - after reasonable consideration of course. If they arn't in the troupe at all they don't get *any* stage space, and perhaps those guys that want in are more deserving of the place. You don't want to lose students, but these guys sound like a disruptive influence and more trouble than they are worth.

Sometimes, you have to be the b*tch who lays things on the line, when you are in charge.

This is one of those times. Your expectations are.....and then hold them to it.
If they know so damned much, let them start their own troupe!

You should also tell them the story about being elbowed by another dancer (just leave out the identifying info) and your thought that you don't want to be a troupe of 1+1+1...that's great insight and helps them understand who you are. It helps understand your philosophy for the troupe.

If a b*tch had physically pushed me, I think I might have strangled her.

I do talk to my students about attitude and how a poor one can make for an uphill battle for a dancer. I think they should know how it reflects negatively upon themselves and makes it difficult to push forward as a group. We can all be Trudy Attitudy sometimes but ongoing issues do require a talk. You are the leader and they clearly need your feedback before it gets out of hand. Good luck to you, I know it is tough!

Oh and individual solos may make the issue worse. I know you said just short solos included in the piece but if they are already a bit full of themselves, this might just create bigger ego issues or competition amongst troupemates. They may not be mature enough yet?

Devil's advocate here...

What's wrong with wanting to be seen?

Why shouldn't more experienced dancers want to move forward, without being held back by the addition of less experienced dancers to the troupe?

Does your choreography adapt well to having a cast of thousands on stage? Some choreography (perhaps that of the Senegal group) have choreography that works well with large numbers of people on stage, while other choreography doesn't work so well.

If people sublimate their personal preferences to what is best for the group all the time, then how will they ever manage to grow as individuals?


Now, Palmier, I'm not saying your thought process is wrong. In fact, I tend to agree with you - the fact that a couple of them didn't bother to watch the other dancers in the show demonstrates an attitude that is not wholesome, and I do think it's appropriate to deal with that issue.

The main reason I raised the questions at the beginning of my email is that you need to keep them in the back of your mind when dealing with these students. In other words, anticipate that they may be thinking some of the above thoughts, and make sure that however you deal with them, you recognize that *to a degree* they may have valid concerns. In your messages above, you seem to feel that when dancing with a group people must 100% subjugate their own agendas to the needs of the group, but if taken to an extreme I think that position is just as perilous as that of too much selfishness.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

If a b*tch had physically pushed me, I think I might have strangled her.

..l;, believe me for a second i wanted to
I realized that day i was a grown up I guess
when i got pushed my emotions went from .w.: ,m:: I could simply not believe someone would do something that low
For some reason i went totaly zen, I had one of those practice what you preach moment , like when i tell my son to be better than the other and not get in a fight if someone tells him something stupid,cause my son will be the one to get in trouble.

All the responses are so helpful.
I am trying hard to see my students point of view, but then I have my values too and my "vision"..g.: for my troupe. If i didnt care about them i would ve just told 2 of them to leave the troupe.
I just dont want to produce more divas I think our dance form as contributed enough ...
Since I spend more time with the troupe, we have to be able to work towards the same goal or it will be frustrating for them and for me.

But this has helped me think about making my goals clear and I will have discussion about this, make it I will also be more of a gentle despot, although they are young adults i think they are testing my authority.
THis discussion help me realize that 3 of them might not see that they are growing inside of a group, learning lots of new moves and dances regardless of not having solos.


While I think some choreographies like sword look fine with just 3 people. Nubian, Debke , bandari and many folkloric dances look way more impressing when done by a bigger group . This dance school as a little educative mandate ( they work with lots of schools in the area so kids can learn about different African traditions) so I want to go more into the variety of fokloric dances from the Mid East.
Like the 2 gumboots teachers can kick a** just by themselves but when they dance with the troupe they are about 18 all together i think every one in the audience has wide eyes and mouths open.

The new troupe members that will join wont bring the level down , some of my new students are catching up fast, they have done other forms of dance before,like one who joined the troupe 2 months ago had already taken lots of belly dance classes and she is one that practices all the time so as far as technique she is the best in the troupe already.
i asked them to think about joining us as a kind of apprentice , where they can learn the choreographies and when ready they can perform with the troupe . many folkloric dances are not as challenging technically as an advanced sharqui choreography. I also made the offer to a couple of my students who do private classes with me. I would like to have 8-10 people eventually.


The members of the troupe who were with the other teacher have felt some frustration because i was more technically challenging , 2 have come and told me . I told them not to worry , that it is nomral to have an adjusting period with a new teacher . I am a very patient person so i do not care if it takes them 1 year to get to do the more complicated stuff i ask them to do , but those 2 dont tend to practice a lot so i realize they might not value hard work like I do. They tought they were very advanced and boom i come in and then all of a sudden they realize they are intermediates and have to work way harder to be in the troupe. When i suggest how to practice certain turns or moves they tend to ignore ...

The new troupe members that will join wont bring the level down , some of my new students are catching up fast, they have done other forms of dance before,like one who joined the troupe 2 months ago had already taken lots of belly dance classes and she is one that practices all the time so as far as technique she is the best in the troupe already.

The members of the troupe who were with the other teacher have felt some frustration because i was more technically challenging , .

Do you think the older members are feeling threatened by the newer guys? Perhaps they are worried that they will be better and steal their limelight - perhaps they need reassurance that you will allow them all their chance to shine!

I have found that some dancers just don't have a group mentality. Dancing in a troupe means that the focus is the unity and cohesiveness of the dance as a whole, not which dancers will be seen the most. I would talk to them individually that way they fell that you are considering their concerns and stress that group dances allow everyone to show their ability and that some group dances will require more dancers than others.

I understand how the unhappiness of one or two memebers of a troupe can put a strain on the whole situation but you are the teacher and ultimately whatever happens will be your decision and they may need to be reminded of that.

I hope this helps a little.

Originally Posted by mahiradancer

Dancing in a troupe means that the focus is the unity and cohesiveness of the dance as a whole, not which dancers will be seen the most.

thank you ! this is what i meant .
can I quote you ?I am going to transalte that sentence in french .

imagine if i would ask them to do this kind of thing ( I wont , but just as an example)2 or 3 would just die on the spot.

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Of course you can quote me. I'm glad you liked my response.

I called the previous teacher who was the troupe director at the same dance school.
well very informative 1h15 minute talk.
turns out my gut feeling was right unfortunately. after hearing what she went through with my 2 problematic troupe members no wonder at all i feel a wall of negative energy when they are in class.

If there is anything I have learned..or tried to at least..in the 4 years of my committee turned democracy turned dictatorship is to listen to your gut...it is usually right.

the former teacher told me she actually had a gut feeling the 2 were up to something just from seeing some show pictures on the web site.
Turns out they are ready to do a lot of low stuff to get what they want so their problem is worst than what i was worried about.
A psychology major is a definite asset when thinking of being a troupe director.....
I just want to dance ..cr.:

I understand! I'll see your 2 coniving ambitious over achievers and raise you 3 I already know all this stuff and you cant make me.

Originally Posted by palmier

the former teacher told me she actually had a gut feeling the 2 were up to something just from seeing some show pictures on the web site.
Turns out they are ready to do a lot of low stuff to get what they want so their problem is worst than what i was worried about.
A psychology major is a definite asset when thinking of being a troupe director.....
I just want to dance ..cr.:

A troupe director has to be tough and assertive and in charge. And troupe members have to be prepared to let go of the ego and work as a collective. It really pisses me off when I see troupes filled with people who all want the individual limelight which as a result ends in sloppy routines, because they've not listened to direction or been prepared to drill the choreo until it's right.

My troupes are worked really hard. God love 'em, I'm really tough on them. If one member cannot get the moves, I make them drill their part individually, in front of the others, until they get it right. This way they are forced to focus, and cannot rely on the others to get their cue. They not only have to know the count, but the music inside out. And if they don't, I want to know why. And if they cannot keep up, they're out.

One thing I simply cannot abide in troupe work is when the members all keep looking round at each other during their performance, to see where the next move's coming from. A good troupe should be able to do the choreo blindfolded.

Originally Posted by palmier

I called the previous teacher who was the troupe director at the same dance school.
well very informative 1h15 minute talk.
turns out my gut feeling was right unfortunately. after hearing what she went through with my 2 problematic troupe members no wonder at all i feel a wall of negative energy when they are in class.

An hour and fifteen minutes very well spent then. What next? x