Thread: how the hell do these teachers get away with it???

I am online bored again! I just was haveing a nosey at bellydancing in Liverpool...not classes just performances and dancers etc as I have heard alot of local names and was looking to see if anyone had videos or websites. Just googled in Liverpool bellydance and this lady came up who claims to be a belly dancer but her site is well weird...it looks very goddessy!! she has these weird videos of herself on youtube doing more lap dancing than belly dancing and just being well erm weird!

I wont post the link incase I offend anyone who may go to her but how the hell are these people allowed to get away with being belly dance teachers?? These people must have some sort of certificate or something...surely?!?!

Certification, qualifications?...

Not necessarily, we call 'em 6 week wonders on Bhuz...people who take one very basic into to BD class and think they are the next Dina...

Or would if they knew who Dina was...

Actually that has been quite the debate going on, imo, that there isn't one set certification for bellydancing....there are a few out there, but I think we are still making headway into defining specific "schools" of bellydance that are 'accepted' throughout the community....w.:
until then....we'll pray that people have enough sense to know that what that teacher is doing is not bellydancing...

Oh dear , pet. I know upon whom you might have allighted. I shall console you in class.

As to certification..yes a lot of debate. I have taken a teacher foundation course because as well as technique it considered aspects such as health and safety and business issues.There are many established and competant teachers who have no pieces of paper and you need have no fear going to them but it seems a good idea for new teachers to take advantage of training and it may be necessary for insurance soon. I took the course because I rated the trainers.
Unfortunately we have quite a few bedroom boppers who set up classes and not least amongst these are those who were Egyptian princesses in another life, are of Arabic/Turkish origin etc so they don't need training and go their own sweet way never going to workshops and advancing their own learning.And ignoring the fact that you need to work hard to be any good..it doesn't come naturally.

Aha you have come across our friend, the one you mentioned to me when we first spoke. I was trying to be diplomatic with my reply to you given our professional connection but yeah, as they say over the pond, go figure.

There are certification courses out there but the teaching is certainly not regulated unless it's a local authority class. And those who are doing the certifying in "belly dance" per se, who taught them and who's to say what's right and wrong? There's a big thread on Bhuz about the Egyptian Bellydance Code or something and there is quite a bit of controversy surrounding that. Plus these courses that people set up are invariably expensive. I'm lucky, the college where I teach is paying me to do my teacher training. It's not belly dance teacher training, just bog standard teacher training, but I should get all the health and safety out of it too wiht a bit of luck. I'm even thinking of sitting in on some of the day classes when they do the theory of choreography and the anatomy stuff etc. If I get the time lol!

The best you can do is choose a teacher you have a rapport with, whose dancing you like, and who pays attention to safety and your development. If they have some sort of physical education qualification all the better. And / or a teaching qualification of some kind.

Good luck and enjoy the web surf! Sorry to say the only video footage of me about (because we aren't that far away from each other) is dead old (I had been dancing 18 months / 2 years or thereabouts in both cases). I hope to have new footage later in the year. It's a myspace page - /KathyCheung I think. It is neglected to death, I meant to put up resources for the students at the college a couple of years ago but it was one of those "good intention" things lol. Then the college got it's own website so I put all the curriculum stuff on that instead. Tom is my best friend. Or is that facebook?

I deliberately disabled the comments for the videos as quite honestly I can't take the kind of criticism some people post on these things. I'd rather listen to my teachers.

You will also find on my myspace page thingy the video of Tarkan doing "Hup" and shaking his booty. Enjoy.

[QUOTE=Freddie;


The best you can do is choose a teacher you have a rapport with, whose dancing you like, and who pays attention to safety and your development. If they have some sort of physical education qualification all the better. And / or a teaching qualification of some kind.


QUOTE]

Her teacher has got Dof E teacher training,
passed JWAAD foundation certificate,
attends dance safety update days,has St Johns training
and is fully insured.
How do I know?..g.:

Originally Posted by Fatinah_bellydance

I am online bored again! I just was haveing a nosey at bellydancing in Liverpool...not classes just performances and dancers etc as I have heard alot of local names and was looking to see if anyone had videos or websites. Just googled in Liverpool bellydance and this lady came up who claims to be a belly dancer but her site is well weird...it looks very goddessy!! she has these weird videos of herself on youtube doing more lap dancing than belly dancing and just being well erm weird!

I wont post the link incase I offend anyone who may go to her but how the hell are these people allowed to get away with being belly dance teachers?? These people must have some sort of certificate or something...surely?!?!

Hey just done a search and is it this Ishtars Boodwar site? Hahaha. This dame is crazy. Whats with the sucking finger palaver, like she's making a meal of someones beef bayonet? Looks like shes on drugs to me.

Because barely anyone questions their training and abilities.

[quote=lizajuk;194535]

Originally Posted by Freddie;


The best you can do is choose a teacher you have a rapport with, whose dancing you like, and who pays attention to safety and your development. If they have some sort of physical education qualification all the better. And / or a teaching qualification of some kind.


QUOTE

Her teacher has got Dof E teacher training,
passed JWAAD foundation certificate,
attends dance safety update days,has St Johns training
and is fully insured.
How do I know?..g.:

She is my teacher :P
I better be careful of what I say....only joking Liz is great!

I wont post the link incase I offend anyone who may go to her but how the hell are these people allowed to get away with being belly dance teachers?? These people must have some sort of certificate or something...surely?!?!

Sadly, as you will have gathered we know who you mean. The basic answer is 'Because you don't have to be certified at all' though many excellent teachers are and will moreover, encourage you to go and do it yourself when the time is right.

The truth is that many people (some of who are excellent dancers and teachers) kind of fall into teaching the dance for a variety of reasons. In addition bellydancing attracts a lot of individuals who are not necessarily after learning to dance in the conventional sense. Many want the whole mystic/cultural/wimmins/part of the package as much as they want to dance if not more. Bellydance is also a dance that attracts people who have never, ever danced before (including yours truly, though I yearned to as a child) and as a result they really don't know what to expect from a dance class or teacher. It is not something that would occur as much or to the same degree in an adult jazz/ballet/modern class and even the pigtailed tinies who are packed off in their tutus to learn a few pirouettes are there to do a little exercise and do as teacher tells them.

Personally, this aspect of bellydance is one of the things that initially attracted me (it looked nice and chilled in comparison to Royal Associated Boards of Music and their anal syllabus) but its also what lets the quacks in.

Its the videos that get me!! I don't like judging other peoples ability. I hate it when people "skit" others but this woman is scary!!

oh dear me.....it gets worse...the lady in question now has videos of herself on youtube speaking about the values of love and bitching...Im scared of her!!!!

Originally Posted by Fatinah_bellydance

oh dear me.....it gets worse...the lady in question now has videos of herself on youtube speaking about the values of love and bitching...Im scared of her!!!!

Be afraid, be very afraid and stop hitting on her site!..g.:

I cant help it!! You know like when your not a lesbian (nothing wrong with lesbians before i get started on!!!) but you cant stop staring at another womans boobs...its like that!!!

Originally Posted by Fatinah_bellydance

I cant help it!! You know like when your not a lesbian (nothing wrong with lesbians before i get started on!!!) but you cant stop staring at another womans boobs...its like that!!!

As a non-Lesbian whose boobs get stared at all the time, all I can say is *snort*

okay, here is the deal, there are many teachers who are out there promoting their own schtick. Some of them are actually decent teachers, but their sales pitch is done to a particular audience, an audience which many times is looking more for a community or tribe and less for a serious study of something real and authentic. They are much less interested in the science of an amaya then in the possibility that somewhere the Goddess is dancing and that they are dancing in tune with Her.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. as long as you are HONEST about what you are teaching. unfortunately, in my experience, most of them are NOT honest about what they are teaching, simply because it takes too much effort to explain. So they use the term "Belly dance."

But, if it makes you feel any better, people such as you are describing are everywhere!

{{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by acmcgraw

Certification, qualifications?...

Not necessarily, we call 'em 6 week wonders on Bhuz...people who take one very basic into to BD class and think they are the next Dina...

Or would if they knew who Dina was...

..g.:

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

As a non-Lesbian whose boobs get stared at all the time, all I can say is *snort*


{{{{HUGS}}}

Hunny at least u have some tits to be stared at!!! I never have that problem...sob sob hehe...cr.:

[quote=lizajuk;194535]

Originally Posted by Freddie;


The best you can do is choose a teacher you have a rapport with, whose dancing you like, and who pays attention to safety and your development. If they have some sort of physical education qualification all the better. And / or a teaching qualification of some kind.


QUOTE

Her teacher has got Dof E teacher training,
passed JWAAD foundation certificate,
attends dance safety update days,has St Johns training
and is fully insured.
How do I know?..g.:

Aha there we are then - you got yourself a teacher Fatinah!
x

Originally Posted by khadiya

Sadly, as you will have gathered we know who you mean. The basic answer is 'Because you don't have to be certified at all' though many excellent teachers are and will moreover, encourage you to go and do it yourself when the time is right.

The truth is that many people (some of who are excellent dancers and teachers) kind of fall into teaching the dance for a variety of reasons. In addition bellydancing attracts a lot of individuals who are not necessarily after learning to dance in the conventional sense. Many want the whole mystic/cultural/wimmins/part of the package as much as they want to dance if not more. Bellydance is also a dance that attracts people who have never, ever danced before (including yours truly, though I yearned to as a child) and as a result they really don't know what to expect from a dance class or teacher. It is not something that would occur as much or to the same degree in an adult jazz/ballet/modern class and even the pigtailed tinies who are packed off in their tutus to learn a few pirouettes are there to do a little exercise and do as teacher tells them.

Personally, this aspect of bellydance is one of the things that initially attracted me (it looked nice and chilled in comparison to Royal Associated Boards of Music and their anal syllabus) but its also what lets the quacks in.

Never a truer word spoken.

I never did any formal dance stuff before I was 38. I am one of those who take advantage of the non-regulation of things. I do have a keen interest in everything teaching-related, health-related etc, but the only qualification I have re. belly dance is a first-aider's certificate. I am about to start teaching on a regular basis again in September, for a local authority (local government class how do I explain this to non UK folk?). It is regulated as far as having to have an appropriate teaching qualification is concerned. Which " appropriate teaching qualification" hasn't been agreed yet.

Originally Posted by Fatinah_bellydance

I cant help it!! You know like when your not a lesbian (nothing wrong with lesbians before i get started on!!!) but you cant stop staring at another womans boobs...its like that!!!

Bwahahahaha I know exactly what you mean. I look at other women's boobs a lot, given that I do a lot of "boudoir" photography. Before anyone asks I know Fatinah as a bridesmaid, not as a boudoir client!

Sometimes they hypnotize me lol! (boobs not bridesmaids)

And if you've taught chest circles or lifts or drops or whatever then you've done your fair share of boob watching.

Just remember though, anyone who looks at her site or at her videos or whatever will make up their own minds. You did! xx

The thing is this particul;ar "wonder" has been going for years. You can tell from her site she's not a shrinking violet. She did a lot of self-publicity and got herself commercial gigs, mainly from people who wouldn't know a bellydancer if they tripped over one. Then it snowballed.
Do you think the same could happen today now there are more real dancers out there? Or is it more likely cos of YouTube.
PS I'm glad no one mentioned her name. Remember Google and just don't ever say it?

You can tell from her site she's not a shrinking violet.

They never are in my experience.

I'd like to add that I've never met the lady in question, seen her dance or had more than a cursory look at her site. However, she is the only 'teacher/dancer' that I have been consistently warned off by nearly everyone I have ever encountered in the dance world and that makes an impression!

Might I answer the quesrion of thread by saying " because nobody ever asks"

Even when I was asked to teach belly dance by a local college, they didn't ask. They knew I was a teacher teacher they knew nothing of my
ability to dance or teach it. haven't ever been asked to prove anything by the people whose premises I hire although the dance studio where I go have known me for years. Not one student has ever asked me about qualifications.

So maybe that's why teachers get away with it.

As to certification, there are 2 main organisations in the UK related just to belly dance who provide training Afra ( here on Bhuz) and Jo Wise ( whose foundation course I followed) Some will say these prove nothing but as one who followed what was a challenging and interesting course ,this is going in the right direction. We all strive to get recognition as a dance of status but without the straightjacket of some. I would not have taken the course had I not had time for the tutors and the fact you didn't just pass because you paid for it. You had to work hard on assesment.
This dance doesn't need much standardisation of style but it does need standards. Anyway before too long insurance companies will insist on some sort of proof of experiance and training. How they chose to do it, I have no idea.

Originally Posted by Freddie

Bwahahahaha I know exactly what you mean. I look at other women's boobs a lot, given that I do a lot of "boudoir" photography. Before anyone asks I know Fatinah as a bridesmaid, not as a boudoir client!

Sometimes they hypnotize me lol! (boobs not bridesmaids)

And if you've taught chest circles or lifts or drops or whatever then you've done your fair share of boob watching.

Just remember though, anyone who looks at her site or at her videos or whatever will make up their own minds. You did! xx

I would love to be a boudoir client though how exciting!!! Not with my cellulite thighs though but you could airbrush freddie :)

Please please please stop hitting on this person's site!!!! In the main I am not at all bothered by this person - our paths never cross (quite deliberately so) even though we teach in the same area. However, I have a sneaky feeling she thrives on publicity and people talking about her - good or bad. Looking at her website just pushes her number of hits up and I wouldn't like her to think we are that interested in her.

Anyway pleased to hear you've found a good teacher in the Liverpool area, there are a few out there I've learnt or danced with most of them. Qualifications is a sticky area but I think you know when a teacher doesn't seem to take your health/age/safety into consideration and with a bit of common sense and reflection know when you're not getting decent teaching.

Talking about boobs though my have been stared at for years but somehow it doesn't bother me when it's a fellow belly dancer - hmmm wonder why?

I would love to be a boudoir client though how exciting!!! Not with my cellulite thighs though but you could airbrush freddie :)

Do it! I got 'borrowed' as a photographer's model once (though not boudoir) and it was a scream.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Might I answer the quesrion of thread by saying " because nobody ever asks"

Even when I was asked to teach belly dance by a local college, they didn't ask. They knew I was a teacher teacher they knew nothing of my
ability to dance or teach it. haven't ever been asked to prove anything by the people whose premises I hire although the dance studio where I go have known me for years. Not one student has ever asked me about qualifications.

So maybe that's why teachers get away with it.

I couldn't agree more and given some of the abysmal teachers out there who work from within the Ad Ed network, it demonstrates that they can't do a class observation very often either. In many instances it doesn't take an expert to recognise something bad when they see it. However, many places don't bother because sadly it's all about the money - as long as people keep coming back and no one complains, they don't worry.

As to certification, there are 2 main organisations in the UK related just to belly dance who provide training Afra ( here on Bhuz) and Jo Wise ( whose foundation course I followed) Some will say these prove nothing but as one who followed what was a challenging and interesting course ,this is going in the right direction. We all strive to get recognition as a dance of status but without the straightjacket of some. I would not have taken the course had I not had time for the tutors and the fact you didn't just pass because you paid for it. You had to work hard on assesment.

One of the things that ASMED now focuses on is 'lifelong learning' or continuous professional development. Getting a qualification is an excellent idea but you also need to develop and update your skills. Members of ASMED get benefits that actively encourage them to continue their learning well beyond their initial period of study to gain an award. I want people to understand that you can never know enough, I've been at this for almost 30 years and there's plenty out there still to learn! I could probably bore the hip belt off anyone prepared to stand still long enough to listen to me on the subject, it's one of my passions along with the concept that 'dance is for everyone', but that's a whole new thread on its own!

This dance doesn't need much standardisation of style but it does need standards. Anyway before too long insurance companies will insist on some sort of proof of experiance and training. How they chose to do it, I have no idea.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more on all those points. ..g.:

Can I just make the point that Im not bothered at all about qualifications when someone can dance but I was wondering how the hell someone who cannot dance ends up earning money teaching!

Because they get very good at self-promotion!!

Unfortunately you don't know someone can't dance until you've been to their class and already paid for the priviledge, if they only offer 10 week course then there's quite a bit of cash down the drain. Also I do worry that people have very different expectations of belly dance classes. Most people who come to class do not have the background or experience in belly or any other type of dancing to always distinguish good from bad. If that's the only exposure you've had and been told it's the right way by someone you percieve to be in authority then you tend to believe it.

What I find more difficult to get my head round is why people stay with sub-standard teachers once they've been exposed to other teachers and performers and gained a wider view of the dance. That baffles me.

Originally Posted by Fatinah_bellydance

Can I just make the point that Im not bothered at all about qualifications when someone can dance but I was wondering how the hell someone who cannot dance ends up earning money teaching!

I'd also like to point out that there is a lot more to being a good teacher than being a good dancer.
I have encountered poor teaching from a wonderful dancer.
It is hard work to become an accomplished teacher, dancing and teaching skills do not always go hand in hand.