Thread: maya/vertical 8s - flat footed

Ok...so I thought to do vertical 8s/mayas you had to keep your top half pretty much still whilst your hips/legs work to do the effect but i then saw this instructional clip on youtube.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfauPk1e7oY]YouTube - Bellydance How to: Maya Pt. 2 (Legs & Feet)[/ame]

Here body is moving up the top...she looks like she is using her upper half to sway to create the effect with the hips and thighs....is she doing this wrong or right or what.

Mayas are the bain of my life right now...im sick of them haha

It depends on the dancer and the look they're going for. I *think* moving the upper body is seen in Egyptian style, but I'm not an expert by any means, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Example @ 0:35
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfujxkBGBu4]YouTube - Suheir Zaki[/ame]

I think it's important to be able to do both so you can use either depending on the music & what look you're going for.

I couldn't watch more than 15 secs of that vid (that "tuck your tailbone" makes me scream every time) but I would say... not right or wrong. Just stylistic differences.

I do Egyptian "style" and my upper body will be engaged in some sort of counter movement or follow through on most, if not all, hip articulations. Try not to get bogged down in any of the "rules"... I haven't come across one yet that is absolute :-)

Also, depending on where you are in your training the attempt at isolation may be more important in technique development than allowing your upper body to sway in counter movement. Trust your teacher, there is often a method to our madness <insert evil laugh here>

thanks girls...im trying not to get too hung up on rules/technique but i dont want to do something and someone go ergh no thats technically wrong!

ps what a fab video!!!! I love the grace and elegance and what hip movements!!

Originally Posted by fatinah_bellydance

thanks girls...im trying not to get too hung up on rules/technique but i dont want to do something and someone go ergh no thats technically wrong!

I second what has been been posted. You probably see a range of vertical figure 8 movements continue into the upper body. I was taught when the movement was very pronouced in the entire body, it became called a "snake" or "full-body side undulation".

I suggest not worrying over a lot of these (what looks to be) home made instructional videos. She did a couple things in there that made me blush. Trust your instructor, that is what you are paying her for..g.:

The longer I dance, the less concensus I find on what is "technically right". Your technique is probably isn't going to be perfect for everyone. I recently move halfway across the USA and found my technique (who I originally learned from very reputable instructors mentioned on this board) is quite different from what is taught here, and got slammed once for it. If you are studying with someone you trust, then ask her, and don't worry about everyone else. There is plenty of time to adsorb all the variations on technique!

happy dancing!
Meredith

I think a dancer needs to be able to do it both ways so that s/he has the freedom of choice. In my experience a lot of people can only do the maya if they lift their heels to begin with. Their tendons and muscles aren't used to that kind of stress to begin with.

Jacqueline Chapman teaches mayas with lifted heels in her beginners video and that's how I initially learned to do it. My first real-live teacher insisted I do them flat footed, and said that lifted heels was "incorrect". I don't think either are "incorrect" as such.

I think it's OK to do it either way as long as you aren't stuck with just one way as that's limiting. One way isn't "safer" than the other as far as I know. You know when your body says "ouch" so just listen to that.

Re the top half of the body, it may try to "join in" or counter the move, but it's good to be able too choose whether to keep the top half quiet or let it join in. So that means working with the isolation and control again.

I have seen a lot of Turkish dancers using the top half of the body as a counter a lot. Actually that reminds me of one guy I've seen really use the upper body to counter a reverse figure 8, on a horizontal plane - Axl Rose. Massive hip sweeps with big upper body counter moves. But I bet he can't do those hip moves and keep his upper body still eh? Probably doesn't want to either ramble ramble

I think that no matter what, you should wear clothing when teaching.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking by it. ..l;,

seriously, just a hip scarf? even if her technique is the most wonderful in the world, how are you going to take someone seriusly who can't be bothered to put on pants?

And if the argument is that she was showing the feet and legs, hello! leggings?

hahahaha axl rose.....i knew all my years of copying him when drunk at parties would stifle me in some way later on hahaha. Seriously my axl rose dance is my party piece mwahahah. ahhh another saturday lost to bhuz and mayas hahaha

Really??? This I HAVE to see!

haha ill show you on Thursday...i might even walk like it on route to the show mwahahahaha nah I wouldnt do that to ya.

It is neither right nor wrong for either technique. Sometimes I'm extremely isolated in the maya and sometimes I'm very snakey.

I teach most movements to be very isolated at the beginning; it's so folks are fully aware of what part of the body is moving and how to control it. Later, after they are very well-versed in the isolated version, we begin to do some counter-balancing movement in the "other" part. But if I see wobbly technique, it's right back to the isolations!

Where's my ballet mistress stick? ..g.:

Deborah

I would tend to ignore anything said in a youtube instructional ;)

For learning maya I think it is best to stay flat footed and let your knees and hips do the work, otherwise you rely too much on the heel lift to get the shape. Same for the isolation, learn it isolated, not relying on too many muscle groups to get the movement, and it gives you more options to play with when you want to do something with the rest of the body.

Oh no, it's queencassie again! Yeesh.

It is a good idea to take instructional videos posted on Youtube with a whole bag of salt, even more so if the instructor obviously is not a professional (not wearing pants on a Youtube instructional is just not an acceptable appearance).

Originally Posted by kina

I think that no matter what, you should wear clothing when teaching.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking by it. ..l;,

seriously, just a hip scarf? even if her technique is the most wonderful in the world, how are you going to take someone seriusly who can't be bothered to put on pants?

And if the argument is that she was showing the feet and legs, hello! leggings?

..l;, I was thinking the same thing as soon as i saw her ..l;,

I do mayas both ways depending on what I want them to look like, to do the level change like Souhier you must lift the heels.
I am pretty sure all the Egyptians and Turkish I saw doing a vertical 8 did it with their heels up, teachers or just regular laides dancing around their living room.

and some teachers in North Ameica insist i do it with heels down.Often I do it that way to practice my flexibility and precision.

and with some students who have a tendency to go with their hips forward and backward a lot on the vertical 8 , sticking their heels on the floor helps them understand the movement better.


the camera work in the Souheir video 0:50 to 1:05 made me seasick, where do they get those ideas ??..c::..c::

I think doing them with heels down helps to stretch and strengthen the muscles so they can look bigger. its a lot harder with heels down.

Originally Posted by kina

I think that no matter what, you should wear clothing when teaching.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking by it. ..l;,

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Apologies for taking this slightly OT tangent...

Originally Posted by Freddie

I think a dancer needs to be able to do it both ways so that s/he has the freedom of choice. In my experience a lot of people can only do the maya if they lift their heels to begin with. Their tendons and muscles aren't used to that kind of stress to begin with.

I agree Freddie, and I also introduce vertical 8's with the heel lifted. Most beginners don't have the strength and flexibility to be able to safely replicate a complex vertical range of movement.

In the same session we start working on heels down, when exactly depends on the students, but initially heels up (and i'm talking slight lift here, not into demi point) helps protect against injury while students are identifying their muscles, setting up neural pathways and all that.

I do the same thing as Nanda. I don't know if either move is wrong/right, but it's good for them to know both.

If the question is mostly one of terminology, then it will depend on who taught you when. I first learned hip figure 8 downs as "bicycle" and it was meant to be flatfooted. The "maya" I learned as the same hip move with the snaky upper body.

If the question is one of technique, then, yes, they are both "correct"; and a greater range of movement comes from being able to do them flat and raised foot. I generally teach them flat footed and isolated and throw extras in later for variety; I tend to start with the harder movements first since once you've got them the easier moves are, well, easier.

If I taught without pants, then I could save a lot on laundry bills. I hadn't considered it before, but now that I know it's acceptable.....

Kitty

Originally Posted by casbahdance

It is neither right nor wrong for either technique. Sometimes I'm extremely isolated in the maya and sometimes I'm very snakey.

I teach most movements to be very isolated at the beginning; it's so folks are fully aware of what part of the body is moving and how to control it. Later, after they are very well-versed in the isolated version, we begin to do some counter-balancing movement in the "other" part. But if I see wobbly technique, it's right back to the isolations!

Where's my ballet mistress stick? ..g.:

Deborah

Totally agree. I too, aim for the more difficult and isolated movement in class so people can then choose how they want to do it. If you only do the easy lifting the heels version you don't develop the flexibility and control to do it the other way.

Like Amanda, I believe the lifted heels version is what is used in Egyptian style more often.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Like Amanda, I believe the lifted heels version is what is used in Egyptian style more often.

*waves* Hi Kashmir... how was Denise?

Just to clarify, my reference to Egyptian style was in regards to upper body counter movement rather than the lifting of the heels in a "maya".

Though I wouldn't use a stationary flat footed maya often.

I'm just intrigued by how much energy she puts into talking about the leg positions, and how little she puts into telling you how to do a maya. Little as in "none."

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I'm just intrigued by how much energy she puts into talking about the leg positions, and how little she puts into telling you how to do a maya. Little as in "none."

She definitely seems to be talking about using the legs to drive the maya a lot, as opposed to the obliques and other core muscles. It looks to me like she's actually *doing* a core-centric maya (IMO, that's what makes them nice and fluid), but not explaining that that's what she's doing.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

*waves* Hi Kashmir... how was Denise?

Just to clarify, my reference to Egyptian style was in regards to upper body counter movement rather than the lifting of the heels in a "maya".

Though I wouldn't use a stationary flat footed maya often.

Denise was wonderful as ever. We started each day with 60-90 minutes of follow the bouncing butt (after the warm up of course), so there was lots of opportunity to study her weight transitions and arms. We didn't cover as much explicit folk this time but she spent time explaining lyrics and gestures - especially on the beledi and shaabi days. I've sent Angie the "lunchtime" choreography videos so you'll be able to see the "other" side of the workshops - but I'm waiting eagerly for the official one with Denise in it.

With the mayas, are there many Egyptian dancers who do them flat footed? In my mind I see that wide legged stance with raised heels - and the upper body counter movement. (Although a plain, small one with flat feet probably passed me by - actually I think Denise used one as a accent as in hip over, stop, hip over, stop)

Originally Posted by kashmir

Denise was wonderful as ever. We started each day with 60-90 minutes of follow the bouncing butt (after the warm up of course), so there was lots of opportunity to study her weight transitions and arms. We didn't cover as much explicit folk this time but she spent time explaining lyrics and gestures - especially on the beledi and shaabi days. I've sent Angie the "lunchtime" choreography videos so you'll be able to see the "other" side of the workshops - but I'm waiting eagerly for the official one with Denise in it.

*sigh*

With the mayas, are there many Egyptian dancers who do them flat footed? In my mind I see that wide legged stance with raised heels - and the upper body counter movement. (Although a plain, small one with flat feet probably passed me by - actually I think Denise used one as a accent as in hip over, stop, hip over, stop)

I can't think off the top of my head... I was going to say in my previous post that I can't remember the last time I did in or was taught for a choreo a flat footed stationary maya... but then thought I should run over some of my tapes first but haven't had a chance. I definitely use the maya technique but more so in a kind of singe hip fwd diagonal loop, that I think someone said once was sort of what they know as a raqia maya? *shrug*

*runs off to peruse videos*

Flat-footed mayas and fish are TERRIBLE for your spine. (Totally grinds your lower vertebrae).

Originally Posted by kina

I think that no matter what, you should wear clothing when teaching.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking by it. ..l;,

seriously, just a hip scarf? even if her technique is the most wonderful in the world, how are you going to take someone seriusly who can't be bothered to put on pants?

And if the argument is that she was showing the feet and legs, hello! leggings?

..l;,..l;,..l;,Kina, girlfriend, I miss you!! ..l;,..l;,