Thread: The Bad Moves List

Hi all,

I recently read a post by Kashmir who mentioned that head circles are a bad idea. I wanted to know what else, physically, is on the Bad Moves List, so to speak...what shouldn't we be doing? I'd like to be aware of things that are potentially physically dangerous, just in case. Like the Turkish drop, for instance.

Good question and something to continually chew over ... I don't think it's as simple as having a list though.

A lot depends on who your students are and what they want to achieve through their dance.

For e.g. a kneeling back bend would be considered bad for your knees if your foot and leg placement is misaligned as well as risking your back and if you do it with a sword on your head exacerbates the risk to you neck (as well as the aesthetic risk of multiple chins ..l;,). But knowing these factors you and your students can make an informed decision about whether the risk is worth the return for a speccy effect.

But even something as simple as a hip drop can cause cumulative injury if the dancer's body is misaligned.

The problem is that it does not hurt at the time, or even the day before but subtle cumulative damage adds up over time and by the time you know you're injured it's too late to do anything about it.

It's easy to get super-paranoid about it however it's also easy to remain sensible and keep updating your knowledge.

I find it very useful to study aerobics/Exercise to Music to see what they consider bad/contra-indicated. That gives you a good overview of how the body works and why these things are considered "bad" which you can translate to your dance. From my experience the info from the fitness industry tends to be aimed more at average people whereas info from dance sources is often aimed at the elite.

Then for every move that is deemed "bad" you get the people who've been doing it all their lives with no problems ...

I've had a "master" teacher tell me that doing head circles is good for you .p::

I've been told floorwork in general can be taxing on the body, unless you're properly trained and strong.

Someone told me aggressive boob shimmies can damage the breasts i.e. make them fall lower sooner than later, or something like that. Is that true?

Originally Posted by indigostars

I've been told floorwork in general can be taxing on the body, unless you're properly trained and strong.

True ... all that getting up and down gracefully requires a lot of muscular strength & endurance and good technique and body alignment.

Originally Posted by EzmaSiddiqah

Someone told me aggressive boob shimmies can damage the breasts i.e. make them fall lower sooner than later, or something like that. Is that true?

If you believe what the sports bra manufacturers say re the damage caused by breast movement when jogging then yes I'd agree. Especially if you boob shimmy for long periods nearly every day. But I'd also think that genetics would have a huge impact so choose your parents very carefully.

By which I mean to say, um, dunno.

I compiled a list when I did my Safe Dance Practices unit with Queensland University of Technology. Here it is: Dangerous Moves

As Jilyan says, no list is definitive. If you have a class of strong, flexible people with no alignment or injury issues most of the exercises/stretches listed can be fine if done correctly and with care. For each item I have included why it is considered dangerous - so teachers and dancers can make their own judgements.

Originally Posted by jilyan

Then for every move that is deemed "bad" you get the people who've been doing it all their lives with no problems ...

I asked our physio contact about that - for instance much of what is done in a yoga class is contra-indicated - but many people do it for years with no bad effects and a number of benefits. He replied that the group is self selecting. Just like belly dance, yoga classes have a small number who continue compared to those who start. Those who continue will tend to be those who do not have problems with (say) stretching cold, toe-touching or hyper-extending the lower back. But for every one that can do this (say) ten cannot and leave either due to minor injury or frustration.

As dance teachers aiming at the general public (ie not trained athletes such as BDSS), we have to take this into account and if we want our students to do some of the more doubtful moves and give them the tools to achieve it safely if possible. If not, be willing to find an alternative. (For instance, I no longer insist on students working the veil behind the line of their body - as much as I like the asthetic. In fact I discourage it unless the individual has appropriate shoulder alignment and torso flexibility)

Originally Posted by kashmir

I compiled a list when I did my Safe Dance Practices unit with Queensland University of Technology. Here it is: Dangerous Moves

As Jilyan says, no list is definitive. If you have a class of strong, flexible people with no alignment or injury issues most of the exercises/stretches listed can be fine if done correctly and with care. For each item I have included why it is considered dangerous - so teachers and dancers can make their own judgements.

That list would eliminate a lot of moves. I have been thinking about this recently also and I don't know what it's possible to do bellydance without injuring or causing damage to some parts of your body. There are just too many moves that can hurt the spine..etc..
I also think it s that way with any type of dance. Even ballet is known to cause very painful hip and feet problems. There are some things the body is just no meant to do..does that mean I will stop dancing....no

Snake arms are definitely not a "bad move", but since I force mine even with slight shoulder injuries, it is for me. So it totally depends on the person's flexibility and alignment as the others have said.

As for the neck concerns, I always do neck warm-ups before I dance. Injuring my neck is one of my biggest fears!

Thanks Kashmir, you always make so much sense!! I've noticed re the yoga stuff and also a lot of the Pilates exercises I've been introduced to are high up on the do not do list according to general fitness information.

Sometimes it seems that bellydance is the most careful of its participants compared to other dance forms, but I think that is fitting as it is a danceform which promotes itself as a safe alternative and attracts many people who have never danced before and would not even think to set foot in ballet, Spanish, Hip Hop etc.

ETA: basing this on my experiences of bellydance compared to other dance classes that I've taken.

Originally Posted by EzmaSiddiqah

Someone told me aggressive boob shimmies can damage the breasts i.e. make them fall lower sooner than later, or something like that. Is that true?

Agressive boob shimmies are a bad move regardless of whether they are physically damaging

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

Even ballet is known to cause very painful hip and feet problems. There are some things the body is just no meant to do..does that mean I will stop dancing....no

But then ballet is also considered self-selecting. Not all ballet dancers end up with damaged feet and hips, only those not physically suited to it but tried to force the technique anyway.

To succeed with ballet you need a combination of the right alignment, the right formation of joints and the right amount of flexibility in certain ligament in addition to correct training at the correct developmental age. Not to mention the right body type for aesthetic purposes.

One if the reasons I love this dance form is that the "selection" process isn't quite as demanding.

The problem with most lower level dancers is that they won't pursue dance specific conditioning outside of class. And a technique class alone will never strengthen and stretch all the different parts of your body to a degree where you can dance without the risk of injury.

I don't think dance Has to be physically destructive, we as individuals just have to be aware of our limitations and physical peculiarities and dance smart to minimize potential damage.

Originally Posted by Kash13

Agressive boob shimmies are a bad move regardless of whether they are physically damaging

they will also put a strain on what is delicate tissue as well as a strain on the nerves of the audience.

Just wanted to say I think the article is a little too general.

In PNF stretching for example, pressure is used to increase range of motion.
In yin yoga postures are held for longer, several minutes at time allowing for that tension to release and deep stretching to occur.

Pushing down on legs in sitting groin stretch - Muscles contract against loading force making stretch impossible.

Curling forward on sitting groin or hamstring stretch. Can cause stress & tearing of ligaments of lumbar spine & posterior pelvis.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

they will also put a strain on what is delicate tissue as well as a strain on the nerves of the audience.

Too funny. What a way to start the morning.

Yoga is completely different from other forms of exercise/movement because we are moving verrrry slowly, with a focus on *perfect* alignment and form, with our attention turned inward, and students are constantly reminded NOT to move into pain or discomfort. Props like blocks, blankets and straps are used to prevent students from overstretching or overuse injuries.

We also *don't* stretch cold. We begin by taking the body through a full range of motion without really stretching and don't enter deep stretches until the second half of class. All the deep poses have a full set of recommended 'preparatory poses' to get the body ready for them.

OTOH, lots of yoga is 'fused' with aerobics or 'power yoga' or whatever these days, or is taught by fitness instructors with only a weekend certification -- those classes seem destined to lead to injury!!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Yoga is completely different from other forms of exercise/movement because we are moving verrrry slowly, with a focus on *perfect* alignment and form, with our attention turned inward, and students are constantly reminded NOT to move into pain or discomfort. Props like blocks, blankets and straps are used to prevent students from overstretching or overuse injuries.

We also *don't* stretch cold. We begin by taking the body through a full range of motion without really stretching and don't enter deep stretches until the second half of class. All the deep poses have a full set of recommended 'preparatory poses' to get the body ready for them.

OTOH, lots of yoga is 'fused' with aerobics or 'power yoga' or whatever these days, or is taught by fitness instructors with only a weekend certification -- those classes seem destined to lead to injury!!

It wasn't just dance movements they were warning against but regular stretches.

ashtanga moves pretty fast at least my David Swenson tapes do:-) Perhaps focus on alignment is on another tape and focusing inward comes through the movement but it is not always instructed.

Kunalini uses head rolls, double leg lifts and all manner of 'not to be used' on that list and some of it is challenging but this should be where some user sense should kick in. If I have a whiplash injury to my neck and I decide to whip my head round doing khaleegi and come out with a sore neck I only have myself to blame...c::

Ashtanga -- kundalini -- yes, of course you're right.

Sorry, I come from Iyengar and Integral tradition and I guess I'm pretty biased. Those other practices don't seem like yoga to me at all -- to me the purpose of yoga is to quiet the mind and prepare the mind and body for meditation -- but of course there are a wide variety of styles out there, some more dangerous than others.

Hi All,
For those of you who are really interested in this topic I highly recommend Hadia's teacher training!! She became a RMT and realized the potential harm of some of the bellydance movements she had been doing. She teaches anatomy and gives alternative ways to accomplish movements that will be more beneficial to the body rather than harmful and advise on which movements should be dropped from the repertoire.

As for snake arms - yes they can be bad for your shoulders! When I was taught to do them I was told to lead with the elbow up as high as it would go then roll back and lower the arm. This resulted in a grinding sensation in my shoulder. I believe I was told to "imagine you are in a tunnel and tracing the walls with your arms".

Hadia taught a more gentler way to do the arm undulation that was grind free and looked waaaay better too. There are a lot of dance teachers out there who really have no clue about any of this stuff and perpetuate this awful stuff. ,m::

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

I don't think dance Has to be physically destructive, we as individuals just have to be aware of our limitations and physical peculiarities and dance smart to minimize potential damage.

I'be been dancing safely for 32 years with no injuries. I do have neck injuries but those are from two car accidents which gave me whiplash.

You can dance beautifully without doing all the risky moves like backbends or Turkish drops. You can do lay-backs instead of backbends and level changes other than drops, according to your physical abilities. You do have to have some athletic ability to perform dance. Taking class is one thing, doing a performance is another level entirely.

I've always thought that ATS move where they do a deep chest circle to the back looks dangerous and harmful to the lower back.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

they will also put a strain on what is delicate tissue as well as a strain on the nerves of the audience.

..l;,..l;,..l;,
Yes, I guess this does sort of beg the question: do you want to discuss moves that are bad for the dancer, bad for the audience, or both...?

Aggressive breast shimmies def. fall into that third category...as do Turkish drops performed crotch to audience in a diaphanous or slit skirt....

Here is a link to a review of Hadia's TT and discussion about "bad moves"
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/product-ne...ntreal-qc.html

Originally Posted by Kash13

Agressive boob shimmies are a bad move regardless of whether they are physically damaging

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by dunyah

I've always thought that ATS move where they do a deep chest circle to the back looks dangerous and harmful to the lower back.

I think you're talking about the torso rotation. You're right.. it can be dangerous (like many moves in our dance) if done improperly. With this move, the key is to lift with the upper back, pulling the pressure out of the lower back... not to settle into the lower back, trying to fold oneself in half. The abs also should be working to stabalize the move.

Sad thing is, I didn't learn it that way at first. It wasn't until a workshop with another instructor working on another move entirely that I discovered the secret is in the upper back lift. I'm *real* careful when I teach that one now!

Originally Posted by EzmaSiddiqah

Someone told me aggressive boob shimmies can damage the breasts i.e. make them fall lower sooner than later, or something like that. Is that true?

May I also add those Turkish jumps especially to a 9/8 rhythm? It goes and I'm trying to type a visual...Hop-hop-hop (count 1-2-3), hop, hop, hop, hop (count a fast 1-2-3-4). I screwed up the rhythm with the counts but I think you can get a visual. It's a move I do NOT do!!!!

Originally Posted by Mahabellydance

Here is a link to a review of Hadia's TT and discussion about "bad moves"
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/product-ne...ntreal-qc.html

Someone tell me how she teaches the Suhair move now plz????? WAH! I want to teach it/do it right!

Currently I'm basing my technique on Shareen el Safy's, or trying to, but that does involve quite a marked pelvic tuck and active glutes.

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

Snake arms are definitely not a "bad move", but since I force mine even with slight shoulder injuries, it is for me. So it totally depends on the person's flexibility and alignment as the others have said.

Depends on how they are done. Initially, I was taught a version where there was no visible shoulder movement, the arms moved in the shoulder socket in line with the body. This impinges the shoulder joint for many people as the shoulder points naturally at least 20 degrees forward.

I now do my snake arms with an obvious shoulder roll, safer - and I think nicer to look at.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Ashtanga -- kundalini -- yes, of course you're right.

Sorry, I come from Iyengar and Integral tradition and I guess I'm pretty biased. Those other practices don't seem like yoga to me at all -- to me the purpose of yoga is to quiet the mind and prepare the mind and body for meditation -- but of course there are a wide variety of styles out there, some more dangerous than others.

hi, no problem. First time I tried Kundalini I thought what the hell is this, it's nothing like yoga but sticking with it I've found I get a real buzz from it. Other times I just want some quiet time and go with more hatha. Shanti.