Thread: My student is a marathon woman

I have a new student who is a marathon runner, has a great mind body connection and is dedicated to learning this dance. A fast learner too. Can someone give me helpful advice to pass on to her regarding her muscle tone. I was demonstrating a proper hip slide to her by holding her knee caps in place with my hands to get the movement in her obliques and out of her knee joints. I then asked her to try a loose shimmy and I placed my hands on her quads. Oh My God! Rock hard..all the time...wow. In trying to get her to relax these muscles I told her to think of an overcooked ham. The muscles sliding around the bone in a loose relaxed manner as she shook her quad back and forth. No luck. What do you do with a hard body student?

I hope Samira Shuruk will pipe up because she is so incredibly muscular from years of teaching Pilates, but she has amazing loose shimmies. I know that it is much harder for me to shimmy now that I am slim and work out like crazy. It was so much easier when I was a little heavier and had less muscle tone.

Before I started bellydancing my stomach was really tight. I had to push pretty hard to get it to relax for those undulations, camels, etc. but if she really wants to dance, she has to get into her head that she has to relax the muscles on her own, believing that because she has good muscle tone that it's okay to relax them anyway.

Maybe some old-fashioned hatha yoga? The relaxation kind. A lot of the tribal dancers like Rachel Brice seem to use yoga.

Sorry, I have no idea. I can't even imagine being too toned to bellydance. Bet she can get some awesome shimmers/freeze shimmies going.

maybe progressive muscle relaxation would help?
there should be no physical reason why someone with well toned muscles shouldn't be able to relax them just as well. it should be just a matter of learning the feeling/getting used to it.

Maybe if we approached it while prone...it is her quads that are giving me the most pause. If the relaxation exercise is done while lying flat on her back, and she shakes the quad loose from there...gravity may help a relaxed side to side motion....?

For me to do the loose-butt jiggle shimmy, I have to start with a tiny freeze type movement and then my tush loosens up and everything jiggles. It has taken me a long time to get that one! A very long time. My default shimmy is the straight leg hamstring-driven shimmy and if I have done a hard workout the same day I perform, that one gets tough as well and until I get really warmed up, I struggle to get it moving. Muscle mass is awesome from a health perspective, but it does make shimmying a little more...taxing.

Hmmm...perhaps the shimmer of the subcutaneous fat is what lends the dance it's femininity in part. Lower your fat content too much (hers is 12% -how does she live?) and the dance becomes a bit different.

well, that's certainly something to be considered - things will look different on on someone who is only jiggling muscle compared to someone who has even a little fat to jiggle ... but she should still be able to achieve the movement you described even if it doesn't have quite the 'same' jiggle - the ability to relax the muscle is not affected by the presence or absence of a fat layer on top of it. (what damiena described about achieving her loose butt shimmy is actually very similar in principal to prog. muscle relaxation.) she may also consider working on achieving the relaxation/loosening of the quads while in water like a bath or pool

Good idea!

My massage therapist told me once that her clients who are very hard-body never *feel* relaxed to her touch -- powerful muscles feel firm and hard even when relaxed. So I wouldn't assume that you'll be able to tell whether she's relaxed or not by touching her.

You're right, with such a low percentage of body fat, everything will look different. If you watch Rachel Brice, for instance, her movement vocabulary depends much more on strength and making the most of her long, lean HIGHLY visible muscular movements -- you won't see a lot of shimmies her dancing compared to, say, Leyla Jouvana or Mona el Said who has more juice and can get an effortless shimmery movement going.

Your student will have to do the same movements as everyone else, of course, in any group performances, but you can encourage her to work with her own body type and develop a dance style that suits her best.

I think it's important to showcase different body types during in-class video viewing or online clip sharing, and let all the students know that this dance can work for them regardless of body type.

*wanders off on a tangent*

Sometimes we teachers get so caught up in trying to make the heavier women feel comfortable that we wind up making the very thin students feel excluded or not good enough. We have to be vigilant if we want to always be inclusive, supportive, and nonjudgemental. I don't allow students to criticize the bodies of dancers we watch on video in class, but the only times I've ever had to enforce that rule is while watching BDSS, students sometimes want to criticize the dancers for being so thin. I tell them 'we don't judge dancers by their body types here.' Reverse prejudice is common among juicier students as they explore feeling welcome and beautiful....

That is very good advice. My new student, while very low in the squishy stuff, looks average. I do have 2 young troupe members who are quite thin and fragile looking. They often struggle with "I hate you, eat a cookie" comments. No one would say that to them if they were heavy.

yes it is very important to remember that size comments can hurt in both directions. Hatred should NEVER come from looks or body type. We as women need to learn TRUE acceptance for all sizes from the inside out. Comments like those could affect anyone negatively - but imagine also if any of these girls happened to have eating disorders (which you never know) how much damage they could do - never assume.

Originally Posted by Andrea2

Sorry, I have no idea. I can't even imagine being too toned to bellydance. Bet she can get some awesome shimmers/freeze shimmies going.

This is what I was thinking...I really can't understand this at all!

I think it is probably just a matter of her settling into the principles of dance which are quite different from long distance running. You can be thin and toned and relax or tighten your muscles once you learn how to do it--you may not have as much to vibrate, but that's okay.

The other thing is that certain movements may look smashing on her and you could focus more on those.

To echo lauren, she may be relaxed, but as the teacher you can't tell because you're programmed to look for something else.

I teach at a gym, I get lot's of first time exercisers in there, as well as other fitness instructors and people who work out a lot. Telling the difference between relaxed is sometimes a challenge.

You can ask her to flex that muscle, then relax it so you can get a visual for what it looks like when she reports it relaxed and keep that in mind when correcting.



It's not foolproof, but it's one way to do it.

Check out this video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgrDYTJrLLI]YouTube - Leg muscle flex[/ame]

OK, watch it again, and see how his muscles move when he shakes his leg? Those are relaxed muscles, and that's what your student should be going for. ;)

Originally Posted by da Sage

Check out this video:

YouTube - Leg muscle flex

OK, watch it again, and see how his muscles move when he shakes his leg? Those are relaxed muscles, and that's what your student should be going for. ;)

Good god! ..c::

Originally Posted by anala

They often struggle with "I hate you, eat a cookie" comments. No one would say that to them if they were heavy.

I agree absolutely with everything that's been said here about how we should never criticize each other's bodies, larger or smaller, and such behavior in class should be firmly squelched. But I have to say (respectfully, and not only to you, dear Anala, because this has come up a lot on Bhuz) that people certainly do make comments of this kind to "juicy" dancers as well, all the time. I don't know where the idea comes from that only thin people are publicly criticized or called out for their weight and we fat folks are just patted on the head and told we're curvy, but it's just not true. I've heard things and read things on both sides that would make your hair curl, my dears, from many in our supposedly accepting dance scene. I think we all have, if we really think about it. No one, thin or fat, should have to put up with it.

In Beginner 2, the first time a teacher played video of Mona Said in class, the very first comment out of someone's mouth was "Oh my God, how much would you have to eat to stay that gross doing as much dancing as she does?" And that was MONA, not the fat chickie in the back row struggling with her larger-than-life 3/4 shimmy, you know?

Originally Posted by Zana

"Oh my God, how much would you have to eat to stay that gross doing as much dancing as she does?" And that was MONA, not the fat chickie in the back row struggling with her larger-than-life 3/4 shimmy, you know?

..cr.:..cr.:..cr.:

Wow. I hope the teacher stopped the video and gave a lecture right there on the spot. I would have!!! .p::

I have been blessed with troupe members that range from 290 pounds to 105 pounds..amazing dancers all. When I was first exposed to this dance 6 yeras ago...one of the dancers on the stage was that 290 lady I spoke of above. Now one of my dearest friends, and as I said, an amazing dancer. First gut level reaction- I was taken aback by her size. I never thought I would see someone that size display so much naked flesh in such a public display of movement. Mind you, this was no large woman at the beach in a big swimsuit doing what she had to do to get a bit of sun with her kids. This was an in your face, proud big woman doing what she loved - and not waiting for perfection before doing it in a most public way. My dear friend would like to be smaller, and is now indeed 100 pounds lighter, but she never had the "I am fat - fat is beautiful, so deal" attitude. Her attitude was - and is, I love this dance, and I will do what I love and not wait for my life to go by while waiting for you to be comfortable with me. Yes...there is a mixed reaction to her when we dance. Yes, she hears the comments and sees the looks, but some of those looks are of amazement in her ability to move like a mighty ocean wave or a rippled lake in the wind. Some of those looks are also of prideful big and older women who are inspired to not hate themselves and do what they love and wear what they want. Does my troupe want to look like BDSS? ... pretty much - yes! Are we hangin around waiting for that to happen? Hell no!!!

I actually have this problem. my upper body is fairly lean and I was a bit muscular so people always think I'm tense when I am relaxed. my movements show in my neck as i have no meat there and frankly its frustrating to me b/c a few teachers swear I'm purposely tensing up when I'm not.

I must also add that when I was fitter I had a better bent knee shimmy but now that I have "bellydancer fat deposit resettlment" issues my bent knee shimmy is not as crisp however my straight leg shimmy is now wicked.

So muscularity does affect the movement and the look of each movement and you will have to just watch her over time.

Also I would focus on telling her to use the joints more. When I was muscular i focused on the actual muscle movement to execute but with proper training I'm now using my knees and other joints more. As a fast beginner dancer she will have to retrain herself to use all body parts together to create movement more effectively rather than using the largest strongest muscles first. It will probably develop overtime.

Yes -- imagine putting your hands on that man's thighs -(Anala, stay with me, now!) - even when they're relaxed, they're going to feel hard as rocks. That's just how muscle tissue is if it isn't striated or covered with lots of fatty tissue. You'll have to take her word for it that she's relaxing the muscles when you tell her to.

The clip above is what I was trying to achieve with her, that relaxed shaking from side to side. I am afraid my anatomy skills are beyond weak...but is this achieved by relaxing something other than the quads? Ligaments or some other mysterious body part I dont know about?


LOL, Lauren you know me too well!

the muscular guy is able to acheive that by relaxing the muscle and using his hip joint to shake. your student might not have great access to her joints as her muscles are her default movement mechanism.

If you train her to bend the knees more and use her hip joints that should help but it will take time for those areas to get loose. i believe running has a very different affect on the joints such that it alters the way they move since its a sport with a high impact level on the joints.

So the joint tissues and the supporting "stuff" tightens in order to protect itself from repeated stress?

No, the joint capsule itself doens't change -- that I'm aware of.

Just the muscles around the joint -- and in the case of the hips, there are also muscles WITHIN the joint that may be tight or short. Those tight muscles around the joint might limit some athletes flexibility -- thought that's not a given, if the athlete stretches regularly and is genetically predisposed toward flexibiliity.

But that wouldn't impair her ability to relax the muscle and make the tiny movements necessary for a shimmy. The shimmy will look different on her because there's almost no fat under the skin or inside the muscle tissue to ripple, but she should be able to create the joint movement necessary. There's nothing about being low-body-fat or well-muscled that should stop her from being able to create the shimmy. I'd handle her like any other shimmy-challenged student.

Are you teaching the 'piston shimmy' (hips move up and down) or the Egyptian shimmy?

Both. The piston shimmy is easier for her so we start there with a bent knee, and then speed up slowly while gradually straighten the knee and try to shiver the quads. Is there a better method? I am open. And teachable!

I wondered about teaching her the Egyptian shimmy the way Leyla Jouvana teaches it. Starting out moving the legs as if running in place but with the balls of the feet nailed to the floor. Let the heels move, let the knees move, but DON'T move the hips up and down. (that's the hardest part, especially for us teachers, we have trouble letting go of the hip-tilting movement we associate with the word 'shimmy.')

I repeat -- RELAX the hips, there is NO up and down movement of the hips.

Once the student is able to move the legs while relaxing the hips, have her gradually nail her heels to the floor. The hips move forward & back with the thigh movement.

I'd think this method would work well for a runner! If you have a copy of Leyle's 21 shimmies and 1001 variations, she does a much better job explaining it than I do!

I do - and that makes a lot of sense. I have taught this briefly in my beginner class before (heel drumming as a vehicle to the shimmy) but wondered if I was encouraging dancers to learn an immobile method of shimmy that they could not travel with - so I quit.