Thread: Rant...teachers making up "rules" a.k.a. "urban legends" of the dance

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Yes, the fabled Devadasi connection! How did I forget to lump this winner into my all-encompassing Sackred Wombyn Mystique rant???

Goes along with the sensual kundalini energy hoo-ha, too. "Wake up your kundalini! Repeat after me...."I am a god-dess, wor-ship me!"

I'm surprised Dolphina dances on a giant aspirin, rather than beside a large Doric column with a bulbous cap. bwaaaahahahahaha

Ahahahah I think I just peed a bit! "I am a godd ess, Im a belly dancer"
the triplet "Worship me, worship me, worship me"

[QUOTE=BreaMorgiane;216066]
How about the use of the zaghareet as applause? The dancer that taught my students the above myth (darn it, I KNEW it was a myth!) considered me a lesser teacher because I don't teach them to do that as applause.
[QUOTE]

Hmmm so that one isn't true? I thought zaghareet was a way of "showing" another dancer that you think she's a great dancer, kinda like "you go girl" ..g.: I've also been told that if a dancer zaghareets while she's dancing herself, that this means she's enjoying herself...
So what is the thing about zaghareets then?

Oh another "myth" that I've been told is that in some countries it means that you're "available" when you're touching or playing with your hair...

Where are the bellydance myth busters? .p::

OK this one goes back to the middle finger thing --

Picture your arms extended to the sides (in 2nd) but with the palms of the hands facing down. One of my students, a former ballet student, told me that Suhaila told her to not drop the middle finger (as is typical in ballet) below the line of the first finger, because it's akin to flipping someone off.

I've never heard Suhaila say this, but....

It seems like a perfectly natural position of the soft hand to let the middle finger drop down. Now sticking the finger down to POINT downwards is awkward -- but is it actually obscene?

All the Arabs I know flip each other off the "American" way. ..c::

[quote=LunaBelgium;452645][QUOTE=BreaMorgiane;216066]
How about the use of the zaghareet as applause? The dancer that taught my students the above myth (darn it, I KNEW it was a myth!) considered me a lesser teacher because I don't teach them to do that as applause.

Hmmm so that one isn't true? I thought zaghareet was a way of "showing" another dancer that you think she's a great dancer, kinda like "you go girl" ..g.: I've also been told that if a dancer zaghareets while she's dancing herself, that this means she's enjoying herself...
So what is the thing about zaghareets then?

I would be interested in knowing this as well. I thought it was a shout out and I use it both during the show and when they are exiting.

I was told by my boss, who was from Cairo, that the zaghareet was used only at special occasions (wedding, graduation, etc), having to do with a large accomplishment. I've heard both sides from dancers, though.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I was told by my boss, who was from Cairo, that the zaghareet was used only at special occasions (wedding, graduation, etc), having to do with a large accomplishment. I've heard both sides from dancers, though.

An older Egyptian woman zaghareet-ed for me while I was dancing on Saturday night. So is this really true?

The usage of zaghareet during performances is a way of showing appreciating of:
1) the dancer's music choice
2) the experience the dancer is providing
3) the quality of the dancer's work
4) having a good time

Yes, David, I know that's what a lot of dancers believe.

What I want to know is whether it is appropriate or not in a cultural context. Again, I have heard both sides - from my boss one thing, some dancers agree with him, some do not.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Yes, David, I know that's what a lot of dancers believe.

What I want to know is whether it is appropriate or not in a cultural context. Again, I have heard both sides - from my boss one thing, some dancers agree with him, some do not.

It depends on which culture you are referring to AND who the person you are talking to is :)

Ahmber - I have never been told not to hit the assaya on the ground. I have been taught many choreographies where I have done just that. Of course it is not done with extreme oomph, as though you're trying to smash a waterbug that's just wandered across your path. But it certainly seems to be just fine. BDSS cane numbers are good, you know, but they don't drip with Saidi feeling. It gives a feeling of power and strength to hit the cane on the floor once or twice in a number. You just wouldn't want to do it again and again, because that would be jarring and would also look stupid.

And, yes, a female dancer can certainly dance with the men's style of stick. Everyone knows she's either directly doing, or referring, to the men's style, and there is some vocabulary that is specific to each gender's style, but I doubt you'd get in trouble for having some fun with it. We just had a lesson in stick from a couple of Saidi dancers, in Egypt, the other day. It's not verboten. Many dancers have fun learning men's style double assaya, and Reda has a famous choreography where the male and female dancers switch off the sticks.

Regarding zaghareet, it's very nice to get one from an Arab woman in an audience. But dancers, please, I'm begging you:

Stop doing it every two seconds at every hafla and workshop show you attend.

Please.

Please.

Stop.

It's overdone and just gets annoying and tacky after a very short while. It makes people sound like they're trying too hard to be Authentic. Also, please PLEASE look around you to see whose ear might be level with your mouth, before you go shrieking around. I've been nearly deafened by taller people zaghareeting around me more times than I care to count.

Thank you.

- Leela

I´m very late for this thread, but one that I didn´t find here is

Bellydancers in Egypt never touch them selves, it´s vulgar.

Ack! I was meaning to respond to these as well, but Leela said everything that was in my head. ITA with all of this:

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

Ahmber - I have never been told not to hit the assaya on the ground. I have been taught many choreographies where I have done just that. Of course it is not done with extreme oomph, as though you're trying to smash a waterbug that's just wandered across your path. But it certainly seems to be just fine. BDSS cane numbers are good, you know, but they don't drip with Saidi feeling. It gives a feeling of power and strength to hit the cane on the floor once or twice in a number. You just wouldn't want to do it again and again, because that would be jarring and would also look stupid.

And, yes, a female dancer can certainly dance with the men's style of stick. Everyone knows she's either directly doing, or referring, to the men's style, and there is some vocabulary that is specific to each gender's style, but I doubt you'd get in trouble for having some fun with it. We just had a lesson in stick from a couple of Saidi dancers, in Egypt, the other day. It's not verboten. Many dancers have fun learning men's style double assaya, and Reda has a famous choreography where the male and female dancers switch off the sticks.

Regarding zaghareet, it's very nice to get one from an Arab woman in an audience. But dancers, please, I'm begging you:

Stop doing it every two seconds at every hafla and workshop show you attend.

Please.

Please.

Stop.

It's overdone and just gets annoying and tacky after a very short while. It makes people sound like they're trying too hard to be Authentic. Also, please PLEASE look around you to see whose ear might be level with your mouth, before you go shrieking around. I've been nearly deafened by taller people zaghareeting around me more times than I care to count.

Thank you.

- Leela

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

Ahmber - I have never been told not to hit the assaya on the ground. I have been taught many choreographies where I have done just that. Of course it is not done with extreme oomph, as though you're trying to smash a waterbug that's just wandered across your path. But it certainly seems to be just fine. BDSS cane numbers are good, you know, but they don't drip with Saidi feeling. It gives a feeling of power and strength to hit the cane on the floor once or twice in a number. You just wouldn't want to do it again and again, because that would be jarring and would also look stupid.

And, yes, a female dancer can certainly dance with the men's style of stick. Everyone knows she's either directly doing, or referring, to the men's style, and there is some vocabulary that is specific to each gender's style, but I doubt you'd get in trouble for having some fun with it. We just had a lesson in stick from a couple of Saidi dancers, in Egypt, the other day. It's not verboten. Many dancers have fun learning men's style double assaya, and Reda has a famous choreography where the male and female dancers switch off the sticks.

Regarding zaghareet, it's very nice to get one from an Arab woman in an audience. But dancers, please, I'm begging you:

Stop doing it every two seconds at every hafla and workshop show you attend.

Please.

Please.

Stop.

It's overdone and just gets annoying and tacky after a very short while. It makes people sound like they're trying too hard to be Authentic. Also, please PLEASE look around you to see whose ear might be level with your mouth, before you go shrieking around. I've been nearly deafened by taller people zaghareeting around me more times than I care to count.

Thank you.

- Leela

I agree - I think the threshold for "appreciation of quality" may need to be put a bit higher at times ;)

To everyone:

Here is an old thread I posted on this topic; read what Shira says (this is where I got the impression that the zaghareet is not used for applause):

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...eet-hands.html

Of course, as David says - you can have varying opinions with varying people.

I think it's become part of *globalised* BD culture to zaghareet, especially where there's a strong American influence. See also hissing etc, though hissing is NOT part of my BD upbringing and I really dislike being hissed at, even though I know the (usually North Island) dancers doing it are showing their appreciation. But I know it's not the absolute norm elsewhere, just as hissing is not the norm here.

Now sticking the finger down to POINT downwards is awkward -- but is it actually obscene?

I once demonstrated this in class when talking about arms and hands, and my Moroccan student snorted. "Tell them why you shouldn't do this," I said, and L said "because it's RUDE!" So that affirmed it for me, at least for Moroccans.

Thanks Zum!

So...ahh..how can you tell when you are getting senile? When you read back from page 5, get really amused by the conversation..and run accross your own post. That was very disconcerting!

Ladies and gentlemen...we have now entered...the TwiLigHt ZoNe.....

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

How about "professional dancers ALL choreograph. You have to do choreography is you want to be a professional."
,f::
This only comes from teachers who don't DO improvisation. I understand and support having a preference, but there is no need to misrepresent the truth to your students. I think it's great to be able to do both. There is a time and a place for everything, ya know?
Fifi, Mona, Shoo Shoo....they never choreographed. Dealing with audiences in a club- no point in choreographing.
When something is choreographed down to the eyelash- it usually loses all the spark. When someone improvises and they don't know how- it looks "muddy"... They are both important useful skills.

I sooooooooooo agree with that one. I always was "bad" with choreography. No that I could not choreograph or do it, but I never liked to approach everything this way. According to Rania Renee thing like baladi should not even be choreographed. Unless you are performing in a formal theater or something, if you are dealing closely with audience, who needs a choreography.

Hugs,
Amani

Anala - then we're both senile, because the same exact thing happened to me!

How about "professional dancers ALL choreograph. You have to do choreography is you want to be a professional."

Actually I heard the complete opposite: "Really professional dancers improvise, they don't need choreography."
A German dancer wrote this announcement for himself.
Just a few hours before that he had admitted to me that he just can't remember choreography...
So he made all the other dancers in the show sound like amateurs (because they had been working their butts off to practice their choreos!! And we are talking about big name dancers!) just to cover up his own crappy memory.
Bad style...

MEISSOUN

Originally Posted by meissoun

Actually I heard the complete opposite: "Really professional dancers improvise, they don't need choreography."
A German dancer wrote this announcement for himself.
Just a few hours before that he had admitted to me that he just can't remember choreography...
So he made all the other dancers in the show sound like amateurs (because they had been working their butts off to practice their choreos!! And we are talking about big name dancers!) just to cover up his own crappy memory.
Bad style...

MEISSOUN

Just for the record - *I* didn't say that. It wasn't me that said that.
.w.:..g.:

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Oh, here's one more. Someone 'round these parts told students that the assaya is a phallic symbol.

oh...so that's why we bang them on the floor?

This looks like an 'old thread' similiar to other recent discussions we have been having.

I guess it is a good idea to revise these things.

I find myself reading through these threads without realising that they are old and wondering why the links don't work. Why are so many of them suddenly being resurrected?

Part of the upgrade included a new feature where some of the longer threads from the past get highlighted on the homepage as "the best of Bhuz." When I first saw these old threads percolating through the system, I suggested that this feature not happen. Some of these discussions are worth revisiting, but many of them are not. Long threads are often long because people are not having a spirited, multi-opinioned discussion, but because they can get ranty and personal. I even suggested that if everyone really wanted to keep this feature, it would be useful to add a "dead thread" notice like the computer forums have, to remind new readers that this thread has been inactive for longer than six months, whatever circumstances that precipitated the thread may have passed, and the participants have all moved on to other topics. We have an archive. If you want to find the old threads, you can. I don't mind that the software tries to find and list relevant threads below current ones, because it's usually pretty clear that the threads in the box at the bottom are from the archive. I just don't think dragging the zombies out of the grave merits a special feature on the front page, though.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I even suggested that if everyone really wanted to keep this feature, it would be useful to add a "dead thread" notice like the computer forums have, to remind new readers that this thread has been inactive for longer than six months, whatever circumstances that precipitated the thread may have passed, and the participants have all moved on to other topics. We have an archive. If you want to find the old threads, you can. I don't mind that the software tries to find and list relevant threads below current ones, because it's usually pretty clear that the threads in the box at the bottom are from the archive. I just don't think dragging the zombies out of the grave merits a special feature on the front page, though.

Agreed, 100%. There should be a feature whereby when someone tries to post a reply to a topic that hasn't seen a response in, say, 6+ months, a warning would come up notifying the person that this is an old thread, and asking if they still want to post anyway.

Oh dear, I guess this was me...my apologies to everyone.

I didn't find it in the archive, it was on the home page under "Welcome to Bhuz' with a publish date of Feb. 2011. Obviously I should have paid more attention the the dates on the individual posts, I will be more careful from now on. I am new to using Bhuz and still learning how it all works.

Originally Posted by Rosalind

Oh dear, I guess this was me...my apologies to everyone.

No worries, it appears to have been a rather entertaining and informative thread, rather than one of the ones that descends into anarchy and chaos.

I wasn;t around when it was first being discussed, so I've gleaned a lot of information from it (and now need to apologise for zaghareeting too close to smaller dancers!)

@Rosalind
Don't feel bad. It's an honest mistake, especially when the thread is highlighted on the homepage like that. Here is Caroline's more recent thread, if you missed it. Myths in moves?

I actually kinda like when old threads which are related show up below a current thread. So many times we have talked things to death before and I think it's a great opportunity for newer members to see what has gone on before so that we aren't simply rehashing old info over and over again.

But that's me. I tend to remember old threads and am generally a wiz with search options!

{{{HUGS}}}