Thread: Rant...teachers making up "rules" a.k.a. "urban legends" of the dance

Originally Posted by Lauren_

TOTAL tangent to the tangent

I can't help wondering if 'womb envy' isn't a HUGE developmental issue for little boys? (I virtually never encountered a little girl who gave a damn about having a penis, BTW).

Sorry for the threadjack.

My niece was quite put out at four years old when she found she couldn't pee standing up like her little male cousin... and she found that out by trying to do so... gah!

But it's funny to put the cane through a freudian analysis. If we did that with belly dancers, well then we'd all be classified as women who have penis envy and daddy issues who need to cause distraction by performing a highly sexual and therefore feminine dance to create womb envy in our male audience.

Nah, it's so they'll have sex with us and give us babies. Babies, babies, babies. If we are Normal Women, we want a penis, but realise that we can't have one so we get a baby instead.

My favourite response to Freud's ultimate question, "what do women want?" is "did you ever consider asking them?"

Originally Posted by zumarrad

My favourite response to Freud's ultimate question, "what do women want?" is "did you ever consider asking them?"

As a semi-devout student of Rogers and Assigoli this is what I have to say about Freud:



Back to your regularly scheduled topic. . .

{{{HUGS}}}}

Freud is full of it, as someone with an osmosis-related PhD in psych can tell you (that would be me).

I remember one of my first teachers saying that women bellydanced to get rid of fat after they gave birth.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I remember one of my first teachers saying that women bellydanced to get rid of fat after they gave birth.

Ooooooh, that's a new one. I guess Pilates wasn't invented back then, so BD was their only choice.

I've also heard the childbirth tale, where a woman would squat down to give birth and her friends would stand in a circle around her, bellyrolling to show their support. I don't know....just seems to simplistic and ideal to me.

Then again, I've often wondered if the Bible was really just a script for an ancient sitcom. So maybe I'm the wrong girl to ask when it comes to the defense of things that are pure and sacred.

Trying not to get too tangential here. This really has been a beneficial (and hilarious) thread.

I've also heard the childbirth tale, where a woman would squat down to give birth and her friends would stand in a circle around her, bellyrolling to show their support. I don't know....just seems to simplistic and ideal to me.

Actually, Morocco's witnessed that, apparently. But it's not the be-all, end-all and origin of BD, it's just the use of one movement in a different setting.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

seeing lucy's show in cairo shattered most of the "egyptian dancers never do's" i was taught: floor work, dancing on tables and taking costuming pieces of on stage.

I adore her show and yes she does shatter a lot of stuff I had been told were absolutely never, ever ever done in Egypt.

I am a fan.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I've also heard the childbirth tale, where a woman would squat down to give birth and her friends would stand in a circle around her, bellyrolling to show their support. I don't know....just seems to simplistic and ideal to me.

Well, the dancer Morocco did actually witness this occurring when she visited the country Morocco. There are three articles at this link which explore this: Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings . Look at those titled Roots, Belly Dance and Childbirth, and Giving to the Light.

However, Morocco will be the first to tell you that what she witnessed should not be treated as the definitive origin of belly dance, nor should it be treated is something that is done everywhere throughout the Near East.

When I first started bellydancing I heard this one "You must smile, while practicing and performing. Never stop smiling."

And she sure did. Every performance, a plastic smile. ..g.:..cr.:

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Actually, Morocco's witnessed that, apparently. But it's not the be-all, end-all and origin of BD, it's just the use of one movement in a different setting.

Ah, thanks for clarifying! (Thanks too, Shira!) I didn't know that came from Morocco's observations and will certainly catch myself up to speed with her article. The version I heard, which was seemingly filtered through a few lenses before it reached its final source, is that this was a common everyday practice back in the Matriarchal Societies of Yore. Happily, we can always rely on Morocco to be fair enough to distinguish one eyewitness account from a blanket statement of The Way Things Are (or Were).

It's definitely frustrating how discourse on history (oops - did I mean "herstory?") can turn into the playground game of "Telephone."

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Oh, here's one more. Someone 'round these parts told students that the assaya is a phallic symbol.

Sometimes a cane is just a cane, lady.

Dude!! It's really hard to eat fruit by the foot and laugh!!!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Nah, it's so they'll have sex with us and give us babies. Babies, babies, babies. If we are Normal Women, we want a penis, but realise that we can't have one so we get a baby instead.

My favourite response to Freud's ultimate question, "what do women want?" is "did you ever consider asking them?"

teehee. all i keep thinking of is austin powers fat bastard "get in my belly!"
oh freud...what a ham. ..l;,..l;,..l;,

Regarding hagalla, Morocco posted this to the med-dance last about 10 years ago:

I asked Dr. Abderrahamn es Shaffey, the director of the Firq'a Masr el Samer - as close to the real folklore & *folks* as one could get - & he said he'd heard that but did not know for sure himself, though it's possible because the word Haggal means bird but a bird that flies across the Sinai Dessert and when it steps on the sand, it does a funny walk because the sand is hot. Some say that this is the walk imitated by Haggala dancers ........... & they *do* shake their tailfeathers ....... I like this version/ explanation, but who knows for sure?!?


So, she is describing this as something she experienced as hearsay, and the person who told her that was passing along hearsay himself. I think she has done a legitimate job of putting what she was told in context (ie, identifying it as hearsay), but the problem is that many people turn around and quote it without mentioning that it comes from hearsay.

I'm coming late to this. But I want to say that I heard the no-pelvis-forward thing from someone I really trust regarding information about dance in Egypt. This teacher made clear that it was current, not historical, and explained it in the context of recent moves toward conservatism there. So is it possible that it is true?

Two more things I heard, from a different but no less respectable authority:

1) That in Egypt, the "O.K." hand gesture means "Let's screw after the show"

2) The hand gesture where you clasp your hands together, point your fingers out together, and flip your hands up rhythmically, refers to sacred sex.

I'm not willing to dismiss these as urban myths, since they came from people who really do know what they're talking about. Has anyone else heard these?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that childbirth, seduction, and temple dances all have their place in the history of this dance, along with many other things like celebrations, imitations of others, etcetera. But I can't take as fact bald assertions like "This dance originated as a sacred Goddess dance to seduce the child out of the womb, and has only been performed by women and should only be performed by women, ever, because it's a woman's dance, so there, men". Or stuff like that. You know what I mean.

On a more serious note, the assertion that this is only a dance for women is one that really annoys me. That is so demonstrably untrue, historically and currently. Why do people continue to promulgate this meshugas?

- Leela

Dude!! It's really hard to eat fruit by the foot and laugh!!!

Mish..eat fruit by the foot? Huh? With your feet? Fruit has landed by your feet and you are now eating it? You have a very long fruit and you are eating it 12 inches at a time?

Anala, you really do live in a cave. They make fruit roll-ups extra-long now, wrapped round and round so you can keep eating and eating....

That **** aint fruit! I avoid eating anything encased in plastic that is a foot long, and brightly colored.

You think that's bad...I dont know who any of those guys are on the hot guy thread either! Cat Stevens for Gods sake..is he even alive?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Regarding hagalla, Morocco posted this to the med-dance last about 10 years ago:

I asked Dr. Abderrahamn es Shaffey, the director of the Firq'a Masr el Samer - as close to the real folklore & *folks* as one could get - & he said he'd heard that but did not know for sure himself, though it's possible because the word Haggal means bird but a bird that flies across the Sinai Dessert and when it steps on the sand, it does a funny walk because the sand is hot. Some say that this is the walk imitated by Haggala dancers ........... & they *do* shake their tailfeathers ....... I like this version/ explanation, but who knows for sure?!?


So, she is describing this as something she experienced as hearsay, and the person who told her that was passing along hearsay himself. I think she has done a legitimate job of putting what she was told in context (ie, identifying it as hearsay), but the problem is that many people turn around and quote it without mentioning that it comes from hearsay.

YESSSS. I think sometimes teachers conjecture and students repeat as fact.
Teacher says 'I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that X may be because of Y.'

Years later, his/her students (who are now teachers themselves) are asserting that 'X is because of Y.' And they've probably added on a W and a Z over the years, too.

Originally Posted by anala

Dude!! It's really hard to eat fruit by the foot and laugh!!!

Mish..eat fruit by the foot? Huh? With your feet? Fruit has landed by your feet and you are now eating it? You have a very long fruit and you are eating it 12 inches at a time?

Groan. I torture my kids w/ fruit by the foot jokes! Now I know how it feels.

Originally Posted by anala

That **** aint fruit! I avoid eating anything encased in plastic that is a foot long, and brightly colored.

You think that's bad...I dont know who any of those guys are on the hot guy thread either! Cat Stevens for Gods sake..is he even alive?

It's actually all chemicals, but it's so yummy! And I'm just not touching the line about eating brightly colored foot long things. It's just too easy.

Originally Posted by anala

I dont know who any of those guys are on the hot guy thread either! Cat Stevens for Gods sake..is he even alive?

What hot guy thread?



.w.:

Yeah..I am with you...I wouldnt touch it either...now my cane on the other hand....

You know..the one with the cute husband....

Oh, that one! Someone must be pretty desperate to start a thread like that.

Back to topic:

I have heard quite a few of these urban legends, including the 3/4 shimmy on the hot sand, the coins represent how much a dancer costs, only poor belly dancers go barefoot...

I love the way we assign some 'meaning' to every possible gesture.

I keep imagining people in China learning disco or breakdancing or the Electric Slide and trying to figure out what all the movements might 'mean.'

The legends about hand gestures that mean "let's get it on" are the ones that make me laugh the most. In what culture would a woman need a hand gesture for that? We only need hand gestures to say, "No! Not gonna happen. No! NO!"

Originally Posted by mish_mish

The legends about hand gestures that mean "let's get it on" are the ones that make me laugh the most. In what culture would a woman need a hand gesture for that? We only need hand gestures to say, "No! Not gonna happen. No! NO!"

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;, ..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

*snort*

It's hilarious because it's SO true.

If you simply *leave the house* you will give some guy the false hope that you will sleep with him.

That seems to be a good reason to keep women indoors. No need of nursing a bruised masculine ego if all the women are invisible.

The hand gesture where you clasp your hands together, point your fingers out together, and flip your hands up rhythmically, refers to sacred sex.

In which culture?