Thread: WWBD: Choreography rights

I have a couple of students who teach.

When they first started teaching -- with my blessing -- I brought up my feelings about them using my lesson plans/student choreographies (which are the same thing, since each choreo is designed as a learning tool).

I told them that they're welcome, of course, to use my choreos when they're teaching FOR ME, under the Lotus Arts name. In my studio, or in outreach classes arranged via the studio where the studio gets a cut and students who outgrow their level one classes would be joining my level 2 class.

Two of my students are now teaching classes that I don't derive any benefit from. One started out as a Lotus Arts 'extension' class, but gradually became separate (not my student's fault, the class was struggling and the studio where she teaches started paying her directly. I'm not part of the deal, though I do promote the class on my website). Another student is teaching a group she set up on her own, which is mostly friends/family of hers. Neither of them has *ever* sent a student on to my level 2 class, though they've both taught for over a year now, one for several years.

They're both still teaching my choreographies. I'm not angry about it -- I genuinely like these women and want them to be successful. But I am plagued by the nagging feeling that I should say something, out of respect for my own hard work creating those beginner choreos & lesson plans.

What would Bhuzzers do?

You should say something, especially if you told them before that your choreographies were only to be taught by them if they were in your employ. Is there anything in writing in your studio policies about this?

If they are truly out on their own, then it's time for them to come up with their own material.

I'd say that you are happy for their success, but would appreciate that they stop teaching your choreographies.

you made a contract (that's what I understood by your post) and they didn't abide by it, therefor no longer have a basis for teaching your stuff.

at this stage of their teaching they should be coming up with their own choreos and it will make them better teachers.

Originally Posted by kina

at this stage of their teaching they should be coming up with their own choreos and it will make them better teachers.

I completely agree with this!

Hmmm...advice. Maybe you could broach the subject by bringing up them not sending anyone to your Level 2 class, even though that was the original agreement? Or maybe ask them, in the guise of mentorship, when they're going to start coming up with choreos of their own to teach their students?

However you slice it, it'll likely be at least an uncomfortable conversation. I think it's one you need to have, but I don't envy you having to do it.

I agree. I would go back to the agreement and say "hey, this was all good when you were teaching under these conditions....but you're not part of Lotus with these classes, and I would prefer if you please do not teach my choreographies or use my lesson plans." Kina's exactly right - if they want to be better teachers, they have to come up with their own stuff. If you're up for it, maybe offer to set up a private session to help them learn how to develop their own choreos and lesson plans. Do your student shows include these classes? Bringing the teachers back into the fold and including their students might help the teachers wake up a bit.

Originally Posted by elljay

Do your student shows include these classes?

This is a very good question! I haven't included them because they're level one classes. That's all my students are offering -- so as far as I can tell, no one is sticking around for more than about 4 months or they would have 'graduated' to level 2. I don't include level ones in my show usually, unless I have several who are at the tail end of the level and really want to perform.

But we're going to be starting some little haflas at our studio soon, I should try to include them! Maybe I should work harder on building their students' sense of connection to the studio so they feel encouraged to move on to level 2.

I never actually made any money off these classes even when I was supposed to (in fact, I was losing money, that's why I stepped out of the financial arrangements). Having these outreach students 'join the fold' would make me feel a lot better about things!

how about holding a class for teachers? that way you can still get some benefit while helping the teachers themselves improve

Is it possible that you run a workshop day showing them how to come up with their own. Sort of like a teacher training day? That way you are helping people you like, as well as earning some $$.

Oh that's just scary. Snap, double posting, and the same idea.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Oh that's just scary. Snap, double posting, and the same idea.

..l;,

great minds and all that ..g.:

I did teacher trainning with them about two years ago, before they started teaching. That's when the subject of the choreos came up originally.

Right now, I like the idea of letting them continue to use my choreos and working harder to include their students in the 'fold.'

(though how-to-choreograph sounds like a great idea for one of my upcoming technique sessions!)

I think you should sit down with them and tell them that you're proud of them, and that you're happy they have been successful. Explain that you don't mind them teaching combinations out of your choreographies, but that full choreographies can only be taught with your express permission by those that are teaching under your school's name. There's nothing wrong with asking that of someone. It's a matter of respect for the choreographer.

Hmmm. I'm torn. If you don't receive any financial benefit from the classes but you still promote them on your site without any differentiating verbiage, aren't they still Lotus Arts students? If they are, then it shouldn't be a problem for them to teach LA choreos. If they are not even close to performing, does it matter that they are using an existing choreo to help them feel the connection between movements? If you feel comfortable with the teacher's ability to represent your studio, would you bill these dancers as LA Level One or Dancer X's Students? Would these students be able to merge with yours to have one larger performance body?

OTOH if you feel that these teachers aren't LA but you are just helping to promote them, then they need to develop their own body of work. I can see both sides, and I guess the real question for me is how you perceive the status of the teachers.

Sorry - I know this isn't any real help, but I can see both sides.

Only one of the classes is promoted in my materials, and it says 'Lotus Arts instructors also teach at these locations.' In my mind, none of those clases are Lotus Arts classes. I teach my own choreos at other locations, of course, but hey! They're min!!!

I have nothing whatsoever to do with the other class.

I stopped promoting the class at first when my arrangement with them changed, but the studio owner contacted me and asked me if I'd put it back on the website. I balked -- what nerve that woman has! -- but out of love for my student I put it back.

Anyway.... I think bringing those students 'into the fold' more will solve my problem for the moment.

Hi Lauren,
You might want to consider a slightly different business model. I've seen affiliate organizations (not franchises nor subsidiaries) pay the mothership a fee, say 2% of profits, in return for certain infrastructural services - in your case both the choreos that serve as curriculum and the online promotion are excellent examples of these sort of services. The fee is waved if the affiliate brings back to the mothership business that equals or surpasses that 2%.

My perspective is that in the bellydance field, as wonky as it is, a well-thought out curriculum has value. The teacher needs to execute against it of course, and there is a lot to that in itself, but I think those choreos have intrinsic value as a teaching tool, and you should be compensated for the time, thought and energy you put them.

The difficulty of course would be that without access to these teachers' numbers (profits), it would have to be on an honor system.

How would you ever work out how much the 2% should consist of? As I am assuming this is 'after costs' - would this arrangement perhaps lead to conflict about what the figure should be ?

LOL, very well could. Just wanted to point out that it's one model to consider. Another option could be an annual flat fee for use of teaching materials.

Clarifying again -- I DO have a program where the studio receives a percentage in exchange for advertising the classes, providing the choreos, lesson plans, etc.

One of the classes in question doesn't fall under my program -- it's on campus at a university, they don't need my advertising or my insurance, etc. so it made sense to let the student arrange it on her own.

The other one started out under my program, but the other studio owner wouldn't enforce any pre-registration or minimum enrollment rules, so I was losing money hand over fist. (they pay me a percentage, I pay my student a flat rate, I need 6 students registered before I can break even, they routinely had 3). I tried to cancel the whole arrangement, but the studio owner and my student both wanted to continue even with just 2 or 3 students, so I stepped out of it to save my a$$ without stopping my student from building her class.

I don't teach or run my own business so you can take this advice for what it is. I don't see a problem touching base with these two teachers framing as a catching up thing. Perhaps you can reiterate that if they would like to continue using your choreo's you would like to see a bigger push in them sending students to your next level class, and that this is the system that you would prefer. ( I can't imagine that in the couple of years they collectively have been teaching that ALL of their students have dropped out.) If they are no longer wanting to do this, just let them know that you would like them to stop using your teaching materials or you would like to be paid a flat fee per term/year for them using it for their classes.

These both seem reasonable to me. Also, it lets them know that really you would just like the recognition for all your hard work and that they can do this just by pushing your classes so that you can get a little benefit.

I hope that everything works out for you.