Thread: Fusion confusion!

So what exactly IS Tribal fusion a fusion of?

Classical/cabaret belly dance and..
ATS?
contemporary dance?
Street dance?
A bit of all of the above?

At what point does fusion become a dance form in it's own right?

In her videos Rachel Brice incorporates yoga and bellydance, but the yoga itself isn't really a dance element, purely to increase skills that will be needed in the dance itself. Am I wrong?

Aw my head is beginning to hurt!

Well, I piss people off by saying it's ALL fusion, all belly dance, all dance, because it's ALL hybrid, but that doesn't mean we can just skip around going tralalalala I can do whatever I want because it's "fusion", because belly dance is rooted in culture and representation.

Tribal fusion is a really grab-baggy term and it gets applied to just about everything these days. I am laughing quietly to myself here because the first element you've selected is "classical/cabaret belly dance" and a lot of tribally people would rather DIE than admit their dance is based on that. But it so is!

My understanding of TF is that it's the posture and "attitude," and possibly the very muscle-focused way of thinking about the movements, that comes from ATS, and everything else is down to the artist's personal preferences. ATS is of course based on American cabaret style (yes! cabaret! with its sequins of evil and chiffon of doom!), specifically Salimpour format, and I gather a lot of the TF people today study with Suhaila, so in a way it's become quite circular.

sequins of evil and chiffon of doom
*Smirk*

i'm in agreement that there ARE some that would try to maintain a silly divide between the styles, but for the most part, it's creative license, regarding your question

in a broad sense, Tribal fusion takes the fashion elements (earthier, grittier, less glam, more power, more global) and elements of other dance forms (flamenco, modern, jazz, indian/bollywood, hip-hop, etc) to create a more modern approach to BD, with music elements of modern rock/industrial/etc, as well as alot of world music from other cultures and ren/medieaval arrangements as well...........

done well, it's very innovative, interesting, and cool! done badly it's a mish-mash that makes you wonder 'what were u thinking?'

primarily it's designated to the more gothy style, but it's a broad term initially to encompass the many fusions that are out there

Originally Posted by zumarrad

yes! cabaret! with its sequins of evil and chiffon of doom!

this quote is ingenious

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well, I piss people off by saying it's ALL fusion, all belly dance, all dance, because it's ALL hybrid, but that doesn't mean we can just skip around going tralalalala I can do whatever I want because it's "fusion", because belly dance is rooted in culture and representation.

Tribal fusion is a really grab-baggy term and it gets applied to just about everything these days. I am laughing quietly to myself here because the first element you've selected is "classical/cabaret belly dance" and a lot of tribally people would rather DIE than admit their dance is based on that. But it so is!

My understanding of TF is that it's the posture and "attitude," and possibly the very muscle-focused way of thinking about the movements, that comes from ATS, and everything else is down to the artist's personal preferences. ATS is of course based on American cabaret style (yes! cabaret! with its sequins of evil and chiffon of doom!), specifically Salimpour format, and I gather a lot of the TF people today study with Suhaila, so in a way it's become quite circular.

Thank you for your eloquent explanation, my head doesn't hurt nearly so much any more.
Love the evil sequins too!!

Tribal fusion is an almost meaningless term now. It's applied to solo dances, not just group dances (where's the rest of the tribe?). Besides the "fashion" element of the costuming, the music choices can be very far from any kind of traditional "belly dance" music - sequins of evil, chiffon of doom, and the dreaded foreign music?

And sometimes I have seen things called "TF" which are really obviously not - which begs the obvious conclusion that there *is* something distinctive about it. I saw a cool, fun BD performance to a rock song once, which was totally great, but it was called "TF" and to my eye there wasn't anything tribal about it. It was just generic belly dance in a pants costume done to 80s rock. So, thinking of that, I guess what I would have expected to see in something called TF would have been 1) the very lifted tribal posture, 2) more intensive locks and pops and muscularity (which has nothing to do with whether the dancer in question *had* muscle or used muscle, just not in the way I see coming out of TF dancers), and 3) possibly an obvious tribal combo or two. I've seen quite a bit of TF because our school's tribal teachers are crazy for it and do it whenever they can, and (I think) do it quite well, following the US trends, and sometimes calling it Dark Cabaret or whatever. But this dance looked nothing like it. I don't know that the dancer in question had done much tribal, if any. So in that case it seemed like TF has become the new label for "something a bit alternative that is belly dance."

I really don't see tribal as grittier or earthier than oriental dance - they've got their chests lifted way higher as a rule and they spend a fair bit of time on demi, and a lot of the time they don't really shimmy all that much so much as undulate, so to my eye the answer to "who would win in an earthy grittiness fight between Carolena and Fifi" is obviously Fifi. (I'm not counting Hab'i Ruh type tribal in this, they *are* earthy and gritty but that's because they're being ME-folk-like.) But ATS type tribal - which I gather is the root of the TF stuff pretty much - seems to show Carolena's personal trainer mentality and even where "loose" is really not very loose at all. It has a sort of heavy stylised deliberateness that I think is less present in oriental dance, especially in the slow stuff, obviously.

Some TF seems to be dancers' way of returning to solo BD that is more about individual interpretation and complexity, but without having to be aligned with the Pink Chiffon which a lot of women don't like. They seem to see it as a way of being "strong and staunch" while BDing, because they don't see strength and staunchness in oriental dance. (I of course do. But I know, absolutely, that if tribal fusion had existed when I was 24, 25, I would have been obsessed with it and would have been the biggest tribal-is-best nazi known to humanity, because the aesthetic would have appealed so much more to me in those days.)

I personally think that the mistake many people make is the label. Tribal Fusion suggests there is a tribe and it is improv. That is obviously not always true.

there is a long argument going on here about how much of other dance forms are fused with belly dance before it is no longer belly dance. the question is still open.

I believe, in most cases, calling this part of the art form Fusion belly Dance with out the Tribal label is a clearer and more honest way to go about it.

Personally, on a costuming level, as well as a dance level, I like to contradiction of AmCab which to me is the ultimate fusion. Nothing like a womanly woman is chiffon and beads balancing a massive you-don't-want-to-f-with-me-sword on her head! ;-)

{{{HUGS}}}}

The thing is, though, Tahira, that a lot of this distinctive stuff has come directly out of tribal, so I don't deny that the dancers in question might well feel they have a right to use the term. But I agree, and I'd actually rather people took "belly dance" off it as well and called it World Fusion or something similar.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

But I agree, and I'd actually rather people took "belly dance" off it as well and called it World Fusion or something similar.

I agree.

For me, when I am dancing Tribal Fusion, it is a fusion of my training in ATS/improv tribal, Vintage American Orientale, and street/club dance that I grew up with.

And no, as a tribal fusionista, I am not afraid of sequins and chiffon. In fact, I own and dance in both. I feel no need to avoid traditional bellydance and would consider myself a lesser dancer if I weren't also trained in Middle Eastern dance, which tribal itself was based on, at least in large measure.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

The thing is, though, Tahira, that a lot of this distinctive stuff has come directly out of tribal, so I don't deny that the dancers in question might well feel they have a right to use the term. But I agree, and I'd actually rather people took "belly dance" off it as well and called it World Fusion or something similar.

Me too! Some local dancers are doing just that now. I really appreciate that they heard the feedback and took it.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

yes! cabaret! with its sequins of evil and chiffon of doom!

You really must copyright this! This should be your new tagline/motto/creed-Hahahahehehehe,r:;

Originally Posted by zumarrad

And sometimes I have seen things called "TF" which are really obviously not - which begs the obvious conclusion that there *is* something distinctive about it. I saw a cool, fun BD performance to a rock song once, which was totally great, but it was called "TF" and to my eye there wasn't anything tribal about it. It was just generic belly dance in a pants costume done to 80s rock. So, thinking of that, I guess what I would have expected to see in something called TF would have been 1) the very lifted tribal posture, 2) more intensive locks and pops and muscularity (which has nothing to do with whether the dancer in question *had* muscle or used muscle, just not in the way I see coming out of TF dancers), and 3) possibly an obvious tribal combo or two. I've seen quite a bit of TF because our school's tribal teachers are crazy for it and do it whenever they can, and (I think) do it quite well, following the US trends, and sometimes calling it Dark Cabaret or whatever. But this dance looked nothing like it. I don't know that the dancer in question had done much tribal, if any. So in that case it seemed like TF has become the new label for "something a bit alternative that is belly dance."

I really don't see tribal as grittier or earthier than oriental dance - they've got their chests lifted way higher as a rule and they spend a fair bit of time on demi, and a lot of the time they don't really shimmy all that much so much as undulate, so to my eye the answer to "who would win in an earthy grittiness fight between Carolena and Fifi" is obviously Fifi. (I'm not counting Hab'i Ruh type tribal in this, they *are* earthy and gritty but that's because they're being ME-folk-like.) But ATS type tribal - which I gather is the root of the TF stuff pretty much - seems to show Carolena's personal trainer mentality and even where "loose" is really not very loose at all. It has a sort of heavy stylised deliberateness that I think is less present in oriental dance, especially in the slow stuff, obviously.

Some TF seems to be dancers' way of returning to solo BD that is more about individual interpretation and complexity, but without having to be aligned with the Pink Chiffon which a lot of women don't like. They seem to see it as a way of being "strong and staunch" while BDing, because they don't see strength and staunchness in oriental dance. (I of course do. But I know, absolutely, that if tribal fusion had existed when I was 24, 25, I would have been obsessed with it and would have been the biggest tribal-is-best nazi known to humanity, because the aesthetic would have appealed so much more to me in those days.)

I've seen TF, you can very easily add the W to....


and yes being an Egyptian dancer who likes to dance ATS as well, I abhor this attitude that Egyptian is somehow light-weight in comparison. back to y fury at it's being labelled as "airy-fairy",m::

We class ourselves a TF because we choreograph but in fact all our moves are ATS or I suppose Egyptian.!
What I don't like to see is when folks sprinkle in elements of other dances they've briefly flirted with but don't relly understand .

The thing to note here is that there *are* some tribal/tribal fusion dancers and troupes rooted in Oriental or Mid-Eastern folkloric dance. Urban Gypsy from TX comes to mind and my troupe calls ourselves "Egypto-Tribal Fusion" (a style name given to us by a few friends of ours) because of how heavily influenced we are by our Egyptian Oriental training (all but one of us did Oriental before Tribal and we ALL do both styles now).

I do agree, however, that there are some Fusionistas who have strayed so far from what bellydance is that "world fusion" might be a better description for them.