Thread: Limited movement vocabulary

Does anyone else feel that this dance form has a really limited movement vocabulary as opposed to some other dance forms? Even though I know there are a zillion ways to combine movements and add subtle differences, I still sometimes struggle with feeling like I am being too repetative. I might do a hip bump out, then up, maybe combine it with a twist then a drop but in essence it is still the same kind of movement. Do you think the public perceives it this way too?

No way! I make up half the moves as I go... I love that part of Egyptian Dance. There "is" no belly dance book that says you have to do mayas, omis and hip bumps, etc. Once you learn to feel and interpret the music in a certain way, you can let loose and get creative. (So long as you are body aware, that is).

Even if you do that same move, there are 1001 ways to execute it with emotion, tension, embellishments, speed, direction, level changes, etc. to make it look different.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

No way! I make up half the moves as I go... I love that part of Egyptian Dance. There "is" no belly dance book that says you have to do mayas, omis and hip bumps, etc. Once you learn to feel and interpret the music in a certain way, you can let loose and get creative. (So long as you are body aware, that is).

Even if you do that same move, there are 1001 ways to execute it with emotion, tension, embellishments, speed, direction, level changes, etc. to make it look different.

I do the same exact thing, making up moves as I go along. I realize that there are 1001 ways to execute a move but it is still the same move at the core. Doesn't anyone else feel stale with that on occasion?

Walking only really involves putting one foot in front of the other, and nobody gets tired of that. In fact, right now people are watching other people putting one foot in front of the other really really fast at the Olympics. Tango is only walking.

I don't know that the movement vocab is any more limited than, say, ballet, actually. It's not as *flashy* - the extensions are not as extreme - but we've got so many variations and ways to put things together.

Originally Posted by stardancer

I do the same exact thing, making up moves as I go along. I realize that there are 1001 ways to execute a move but it is still the same move at the core. Doesn't anyone else feel stale with that on occasion?

Yes, I agree with you 100%. I think this often. Sometimes I feel like it must be me - that I'm just boring and repetetive. But then I watch a video of some of my favorite dancers and I realize that they are doing all the same "core" moves too, just changing the emotion, execution and style. I was feeling like this just last night, so I watched about 60 youtube videos of Saida (LOVE HER) and realized crazy flashy dances are all made up with the same core moves over and over.

I probably would get tired of watching a show where someone was walking around for 20 minutes. Even if they varied it with long steps, short steps, backwards,2 quick one slow, etc! At least with tango they vary it with some kicks, twists and dips. Perhaps it is the lack of grandeous movement that I worry will bore the public. Maybe I am just feeling stagnant. Perhaps a workshop would help. I hate going in to stagnant phases. It happens every couple of years.

Sometimes I feel redundant. However, angling, layering, speed, mood, and subtle differences do make something more interesting.

Perhaps not having a solid list of combos really makes the vocab seem smaller? I'm trying to think if other dances I've studied really break it down as basically as belly dance does.

Originally Posted by stardancer

I probably would get tired of watching a show where someone was walking around for 20 minutes. Even if they varied it with long steps, short steps, backwards,2 quick one slow, etc! At least with tango they vary it with some kicks, twists and dips. Perhaps it is the lack of grandeous movement that I worry will bore the public. Maybe I am just feeling stagnant. Perhaps a workshop would help. I hate going in to stagnant phases. It happens every couple of years.

I think I'm hearing what you're saying now... Bhuz had a great thread a while back about dramatic moves - did you see it? It was great! Perhaps all you need is to spice it up with a big drama move from time to time or gather up a few new CDs?

Something that has worked for me (still working on it, always will be I'm sure) is forcing myself to interpret specific instruments in different ways and with different parts of my body. It forces me into default when I hear them, and I break the mold when I feel the urge.

ie. accordian in your torso... almost like you're playing the accordian in your torso. Nay in your ribcage and arms... Drum in your pelvis... oud your whole body... kanoun, shimmies... then listen to the rise and fall of the music to take advantage of level changes and sways, when to travel, when to stay still, etc. I know we all feel music in a different way, but for me, these things help.

Dance is a form of communication, and when we speak we use the same words over and over again. Music is made up of repeating note phrases and passages. If you decided to compose a story or a song and you decided never to repeat a word or a note, what would happen? Would you end up with a better story or song?

The idea that we need to do MORE is the biggest problem in belly dance right now.

What we need to do is LESS, with conviction.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Dance is a form of communication, and when we speak we use the same words over and over again. Music is made up of repeating note phrases and passages. If you decided to compose a story or a song and you decided never to repeat a word or a note, what would happen? Would you end up with a better story or song?

The idea that we need to do MORE is the biggest problem in belly dance right now.

What we need to do is LESS, with conviction.

I love this!!!!

To illustrate my point, the incomparable Souheir Zeki:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfRATlwjxqo&feature=PlayList&p=B03014403E5 79EF7&index=5]YouTube - Suheir Zaki - a bellydance Legend[/ame]

Her single hip drops on each side, starting a :31 are sublime.

TX, I think you are kind of making a different point than the OP - what I believe you are saying that it's better to have simple movements and dance with conviction than be all over the place and try to do to much. Basically distinguishing between a "right" and "wrong" way to dance (not disagreeing with you, just trying to sum up what you are saying).

The OP is talking about whether or not our dance has a rather limited vocabulary of "core" moves - not that there is anything right or wrong with that, just that we have less moves to "work" with, and the variety in our dance comes from variations on these core moves.

I think these are two different discussion, IMO.

More limited than what other dance forms?

At least with tango they vary it with some kicks, twists and dips

Not dips as a rule. But you realise that the kicks, twists and dips are just variations of stepping, right? Not that I'm any great shakes as a tango follower, and I am in dire need of a private since things have changed a bit, but as a follower, the kicks and twists you describe are entirely generated by the lead shifting the follower's weight. It's still just stepping.

As I said, I really fail to see that BD has less moves in it than ballet. We don't have pirouettes, but they don't have shimmies.

Contemporary, jazz, hip hop. Not so much ballet or tap.

So should ballet or tap dancers feel inadequate?

I see this as an extension of our own belly dance inferiority complex - so what if we have fewer core moves? We're not contemporary or hip hop dancers, we're belly dancers, and as such I think our form of dance is just right the way it is.

I've never had any of the GP audience tell me my dancing didn't have enough going on in it, no matter how I felt that day - the moves that we do are so different and challenging to the GP that I don't think anyone is sitting in the audience second-guessing or judging us the way we do ourselves.

It's not that it is inadequate. But they probably do feel stale on occasion.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The idea that we need to do MORE is the biggest problem in belly dance right now.

What we need to do is LESS, with conviction.

Excellent! Love this!

Originally Posted by stardancer

It's not that it is inadequate. But they probably do feel stale on occasion.

Sure, but that usually has less to do with how many core moves there are than it has to do with being a bit burnt out.

I have a job, I teach, and I dance on the weekends. Up until this summer, I danced EVERY weekend - many times Friday AND Saturday night. Although I know that for many dancers this is an enviable schedule, after doing this for years, I'm ready to cut down. I find that after taking a weekend off, the next time I get the chance to perform, I can do the same moves with more conviction, because I've missed being out there.

Because you see, it's not the moves that get stale, it's me.

Stardancer, I felt the same way once. I almost quit bellydance a few years after I started because I felt like there were only so many ways to set the same hip drops, figure 8s and shimmies to music and I was BORED with it all.

In my case, I was in an ongoing class that allowed drop ins and offered no levels. So we just went over basics over and over, and combined them into the very simplest of choreographies. No wonder I was frustrated with the dance, I was still doing it at a beginner level!

a weekend of workshops with Yousry Sharif opened my eyes just before I quit. I realized that there's so much more to this dance than torso articulations and a few traveling steps.

There's a whole vocabulary of movements that come from folkloric dances: Saidi, Khaleegy, Bedouin, Debke, Turkish folk dances, Andalusian, Tunisian, etc. Dozens of rhythms to learn and EACH rhythm has a whole vocabulary of movement that goes with it!

And there's all the graceful Raks Sharki stuff - spins, turns, arabesques, intricate traveling steps and foot patterns, laybacks. A hop drop to accent a DOUM before you shift your weight and spin off is very different from a standing series of hip drops!

When you watch a really entertaining dancer like Aziza or Orit or Virginia you can see how much more there can be to this dance. And that's before you even consider all the props and toys we have available to us!

For me, it comes back to the music. As an audience member, the vocabulary tends to look limited when a dancer chooses music that doesn't have anything interesting going on in it - whether that's lyrically, musically, etc. I'm all for simplicity in dancing - but there has to be something for a dancer to respond to, and be inspired by, in the music.

all the other dance forms mentioned have the came core movements and positions, it's how they're placed, in interpreting music that makes them interesting.............a tendu is a tendu until it's combined with a turn, pas des burre, etc

with a strong ME background and musical interpretation, your vocabulary is embellished with layering, angling, expression, combos, pretty much what everyone's been saying

so no, i don't feel stale.........i do end up in ruts, but that has little to do with the vocabulary, but more with my mindset, which is why i study privately with amazing teachers and go to workshops............i get, and regain fresh eyes..........

Stardancer, I don't know which style of belly dance you prefer, but I think we can learn a lesson from Egyptian music. It is typical for Egyptian songs to repeat the exact same lyrics/verses over and over. Oum Kalsoum was famous for singing the same verse as many as 5 or so times in the same song, but each time she sang it, she would inflect her voice to create subtle nuances of change. This repetition did not alienate her audiences at all. Rather, by repeating the same technique (ie, words) over and over, she freed herself from being lyrics-bound and was able to focus on expressing those lyrics with heartfelt emotion.

My point is that her song writers didn't focus on coming up with lots of different words. They kept the words simple, and allowed the artist to imbue those words with emotion.

Your challenge is to imbue those basic dance moves with emotion and passion.

I found it very useful to read Gelsey Kirkland's autobiography, Dancing on my Grave. She was a very, very celebrated ballerina in her day. Choreography was created by someone else, she didn't control what steps she did. So in order to differentiate her own performance of a piece from how other people interpreted the exact same choreo, she studied pantomime, which is the technique of putting emotion and passion into a performance.

I'll continue my thoughts in another message.

Now, as for repetition, repetition can be good.

Repetition creates familiarity. Familiarity can be joyful and comforting, and makes you feel closer to the artist who is serving it to you. When you go to a rock concert, you want to hear the band play your favorite hits, right? You don't want to go to a show that's entirely new material you've never heard before, do you? So even though you've heard the song a thousand times before, you want to hear it again, don't you?

Movement can be like that. The same sequence, repeated more than once in the song, ties everything together and creates a sense of unity. And by repeating the combination, since you know what's coming, you can allow yourself to focus your attention on expressing the emotion, the passion.

Mahmoud Reda uses repetition in his choreographies. He follows the rule of 4, meaning that since the music does the same thing four times, then so should the choreography. But then, on the fourth repetition, he throws in something just a little different to put an unexpected twist on the ending, sort of like putting a period at the end of a sentence. Or, sometimes he'll do it exactly the same thing the first two times, then do the different thing on both three and four. It depends on the music and the flow of the dance.

Anyway, the way I see it, if a bit of repetition is good enough for one of Egypt's legendary choreographers, then it's good enough for me.

I think the key is to use repetition in meaningful ways, ways that fit the music and express a mood.

Hmmm, I have more thoughts. I'll put them in a different message.

I want to go back to TamraHenna's comments. She made an interesting point - Western music has only 12 possible notes. A, A sharp, B, C, C sharp, D, D sharp, E, F, F sharp, G, and G sharp. That's it. And yet, look at the enormous variety of music that has been created using just those 12 notes - Mozart operas, Beach Boys surfing songs, Gregorian chants, the blues, heavy metal, great big gobs of greasy grimy gopher guts - the list goes on.

The English-language alphabet has only 26 letters, but those 26 letters combine to make lyrics for all those song styles I just listed, plus debates on belly dance forums, plus the novel War and Peace, plus the Bible and Koran, plus the original book Sex and the City on which the tv series was based, and so on.

So I don't think the problem is the limitation imposed by the size of the available movement vocabulary. I think maybe you need a good dose of inspiration through watching performances by people you think are fabulous, or finding a song you really love that you can do to and bring emotion into.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Dance is a form of communication, and when we speak we use the same words over and over again. Music is made up of repeating note phrases and passages. If you decided to compose a story or a song and you decided never to repeat a word or a note, what would happen? Would you end up with a better story or song?

The idea that we need to do MORE is the biggest problem in belly dance right now.

What we need to do is LESS, with conviction.

I love this, too!

Deborah

Word Shira!

I teach tap and I still have the feeling that I have only scraped the surface of tap possibilities. It has a narrower focus of movement, true, but the technical stuff still goes deeper than I can see (so far - 5 sound wings - eeeahh!), the entertainment potential is unfathomable and the wonderful musicality is what it's all about!

I also teach modern dance (with its "all inclusive" dance vocabulary) and love the creative freedom. However, with each choreography I have to decide on a set of core movements to prevent it from becoming hodge-podge and keep it visually unified. I have to work at maintaining focus of purpose.

What I love about belly dance is it can have the emotional depth of expressive modern dance with the entertainment engagement and intense musicality of tap. Best of both worlds...

Don't go wider, go deeper! (in other words, what TX said). :-)

I tell my Beginning students that Belly Dance is like Taco Bell - there's only about 12 ingredients, but they put them together in so many ways that they somehow wind up with a menu of 100 things.

I'm partially kidding, of course, but the point I'm really trying to get across to them is that the fundamental movements are used by first-time students all the way up to seasoned pros. You don't take a Beginning class and learn a bunch of "baby" moves that you then discard when you get to a higher level. They remain the foundation of the dance no matter where your dance journey takes you.

I have a background in Western dance, and I personally don't feel that Belly Dance is any more limited in the core movements. There are so many ways to do even the most basic moves, I can't imagine ever getting bored. My experience is very much like Lauren described.

One of the things I think many of us struggle with as dancers is the fear of boring our audience. I know that I'm guilty of this myself, and it winds up making my dancing way busier than I want it to be. However, the dancers I look up to the most are the ones who can do the smallest, simplest movement - or even stop moving all together! - and still hold the audience in the palm of their hand. Aziza, Ava Fleming and Tito stand out to me as dancers who can pull this off extremely well. To have the confidence to do very little and still know you are being completely engaging is something that I really aspire to accomplish someday.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I have a background in Western dance, and I personally don't feel that Belly Dance is any more limited in the core movements. There are so many ways to do even the most basic moves, I can't imagine ever getting bored.

ita
i also have a western dance background and find belly dance more interesting because it allows a solo artist an opportunity to spontaneously interpret the music as s/he hears it in the moment. so for me, its not the number of available movements, but how the vocabulary of movement is used to express the music.

even if, for argument's sake, ballet or jazz has more documented movement in the vocabulary, that doesn't mean they are any more or less interesting to the audience. technically, ballet is just a series of lines, planes and shapes in motion. there are only 5 basic foot positions and the lines that travel through them, but that doesn't make it any less spectacular to the audience.

i'm sure we've all seen a performance where a dancer puts every move she knows into a piece. sometimes its amazing, but sometimes it can become "look at all the tricks i know" and not so much "this is how the music makes me move."

that can be exhausting for the audience to watch. remember, even the most spectacular men's variations of turns and jumps in ballet give the audience a few notes to rest their eye and absorb what they've seen before the amazing feats begin again.

ita with thtx and the others who said "quality not quantity"

Wow, what a great thread this is! I'm really enjoying what everyone has to say here.