Thread: Spins and Turns

So lately I've been working on my spins and I've still to master the art of not throwing up afterwards. I get extremely dizzy no matter how much I try this spotting technique. I don't have classical training, but I am starting ballet classes in the fall when my teacher opens her new studio. The flooring will be good for it. We have worked on spins in class but, for some reason, I have the hardest time finding my balance. It's probably due to several head injuries over the years. But I'd like to learn to spin without wanting to puke. I'm considering doing a private lesson with my instructor on traveling and spinning, if I could only get a grip on it. I have some other balance problems, too, and it's not limited to dance.

Anyone have any tips for the severely unbalanced folks? Are there any videos that you'd recommend? I know that I probably could never do something like a double veil routine where you're spinning for like a minute...but a few turns shouldn't kill me, right?

I also have really bad balance, and I'm just learning to spin.
I've always had a queezy stomach.

Are you remembering to breathe while your spinning?
I've found my stomach and dizziness are worse if I forget to breath, tense up too much, and hold my stomach in to tight.
Plus don't eat or drink to close to the time you're dancing.

I forgot you mentioned head injuries (I've a few of those too).

When you close your eyes, do you tend to lean or fall to much to one side (I will lean to the right, because I have a bad right ear).
I have to compensate for that.

Could you have a problem with your ears?

Well spinning a a tolerance bid up. I used to figure skate and that quickly made me immune to spinning. :-)
This is what I tell my students when we work on spinning. Try drinking TONS of water before you practice. If you have a nauscious feeling try spinning equally the other direction.
One of the factors that causes dizzyiness is the centrifical motion of the blood in your head. If you can get it going back the other direction it will help a bit. The other thing to do is bend over about your hips and let your head fall, that will send the blood rushing down as opposed to around.
I think taking some ballet calsses may help with spotting as well.
If those things don't help it oculd just be that your inner ears aren't allowing you to do it. There isn't much you can do about that. I get sea sick so- easily but can spin no problem.
Yeah strange but part of it is our inner ears.
happy spinning!
-NJ

I have no technique help (I don't spin well either), but I had a teacher tell us that the nausia/dizzyness is a reaction to the imbalace of pressure in the ears. She said that if we just practiced spinning enough our bodies would become de-sensitized to the sensation and the dizzyness and stuff would stop. I can't swear by it, and have no idea if a head injury would change things, but I hope its true! Hopefully a light at the end of the nauseous tunnel!

There is more than one way of spotting, too: I just can't get regular spotting to work for me, most likely because of certain limitations in my vision (long story - basically, my eyes don't work very well together, which can't be corrected, on top of which, I get motion sick very easily) - trying to spot with head whip is guaranteed to make me feel terrible. But, I can spin quite a bit when I spot off my hand.

I do get a little too prepared for the spinning side-effects so you might be onto something there with the breathing suggestion. I'm going to work on relaxing a little more. Now fast spins are beyond me.

I don't lean to the side if I close my eyes. I've had other balance issues before, like when I go on cruise ships, I'll be severely dizzy for like three or four months afterwards. It's a rare condition (maldebarkment). After visiting a handful of doctors, I had a head/ear doctor diagnose the condition. He said that I just have to deal with it and then prescribed me three Xanax a day. It didn't help. The problem went away over time, thank goodness. I wonder if the same kind of condition causes my dizziness.

I take motion sickness pills 30-40 mins. before spinning.

Originally Posted by jasani

I take motion sickness pills 30-40 mins. before spinning.

This might not be a good idea since many people (myself included) get dizzy and/or drowsy under the influence of this med (most likely dimenhydrinate). Some people don't have problems with those side effects, though. Test it out a day or so BEFORE class if you want to try it!

I used to get queasy in turns class, but it DID get better for me the more I went to classes. Now I can spin quite a bit before feeling queasy, so just keep giving it a chance and mostly likely it will get better. I hope it does!

I've never been an excellent spinner, but can turn a few times in each direction -- maybe up to 10 full turns -- without too much of a problem. I had a doozy of an inner ear infection a few years back and that affected my spinning ability for quite a while after that. Since then, I've tried all of the above: turning equally in one direction and then the other (works tolerably well), learning various methods of spotting (not really a help to me), and I've done the motion-sickness medication route(and it did help me, but didn't completely alleviate the problem, plus who knows for sure when the urge to spin will hit?). For me, and this is what I tell my students too, what helps is to practice.

I like to do it in the morning, but any time of day is fine: Start by spinning just two times; the third day, add a full turn. Two days later, another full turn -- so on and so forth until you can spin several times with little/no problem. As someone said earlier, it's a tolerance thing and you just have to work at developing it.

I used to have a lot of difficulty spinning. Now I perform double veil with confidence. Some tips:

• Drink plenty of water before you dance. Dehydration can cause dizziness. I recommend drinking about 8 glasses of water on any day in which you expect to do spinning that night so that your body has the full day to absorb all that water.
• Eat ginger before dance. Ginger is a common home remedy for seasickness, carsickness, and any other nausea-caused motion. Medical studies have found it to be effective in something like 65% of the population. (I don't remember the exact figures, but with googling you could find it.) Maybe you'll be one of the lucky 65%.
• Start with hand spots. The hardest type of spotting for me is what I call the "ballet spot" - ie, whipping my head around to keep sight of a consistent spot on the wall. It's much easier to elegantly place your hand in a position where your eyes can see it, and focus your gaze on that. I sometimes use dervish-style spinning where you don't spot at all, but just pull your gaze inward so that your eyes are open but your brain is discarding the information they offer. The problem with hand-spotting and dervish-spinning is that both will make you temporarily lose your connection to the audience, so that's something to be aware of.
• Practice in a cool room. You're more likely to get dizzy when you're really hot than you are when you're cool.
• Don't try to learn barrel turns until after you can already spin just doing normal paddle turns. Barrel turns, with the dip, are harder to do than normal paddle turns. They're more likely to make you dizzy. So learn how to spin standing erect first, and spot with your head held straight forward. (Ie, don't look at the floor and don't look at the ceiling, because those are both more likely to make you dizzy than looking straight ahead.)
• Practice, practice, practice. I found that if I practiced 2-3 times a week outside of class, then every time I practiced I got just a little better. Really, it's like any skill that you're new at. Practice is good. Do it.
• Give yourself permission to have difficulty at first. All too many people stop trying to learn how to spin because, well, it's not easy! Duh! I think it took me 6 months to get good enough at spinning to do a 4-minute double-veil dance. Be patient with yourself. Just keep practicing, and trust that each time you practice you bring yourself a step closer to your goal.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I sometimes use dervish-style spinning where you don't spot at all, but just pull your gaze inward so that your eyes are open but your brain is discarding the information they offer. [/list]

This is the technique I use - I simply can't spot for the life of me, despite years of ballet training. My current BD teacher used to be a ballerina, and she can't believe how I can just spin and spin and spin without spotting. Of course, it took me months and months of practice to not fall over with dizziness, but it does get easier the more you do it. I liken it to training your inner ear, just like you train your muscles to execute BD movements.

I teach my students both spotting and "unfocusing" (which is what I call the dervish-style), tell them to play around with both and use what works best.

Thank you all for the replies and suggestions. I'm going to try all of the above until I get these darn spins under control. I don't like to give up on anything even if it causes me to feel sick for a while.

I really like the spotting on something closer to your body suggestion. This one might work though I will have to work on looking graceful and not like I'm checking out my ring or something.

Shira, you're right about the ginger. I remember that after my bike accident two years ago my mother brought me ginger tea to alleviate the severe dizziness. He, he. I almost killed myself when I flew off my bike and into oncoming traffic. Thank God the light turned red! I hit my head on the asphalt and when I turned to the side, I could see a car's underbelly very, very close. I don't remember much after that except being suddenly aware that I was at the hospital and that I was speaking like a five year old. Minor regression. My DH says that I kept asking the same questions over and over again on the way to the hospital, though I don't remember. The headaches got worse after the accident (not my first head injury) and the dizzy spells just come on for no reason. I don't like to provoke things, but I really want to get those turns going. I can do soft three-step turns; it's the faster or continous spinning that really get me.

So, I will practice more often. Thank you!

Shira and Laura, when you are doing the "dervish-style" spinning...what do you look at?

I too have a LOT of trouble with spins...
I try to practice, but I fall over. ;)

Originally Posted by yasmindiab

Shira and Laura, when you are doing the "dervish-style" spinning...what do you look at?

The key is that I don't "look" at anything. Some people would describe it as letting your eyes go out of focus. Ie, I don't try to identify what I am seeing. I simply hold my neck still, my head steady, and allow my head to rotate together with the rest of my body on the axis.

It's sort of like this - when your eyes "see" something, what's really happening is that they are transmitting images of light through the optic nerve to your brain, and your brain interprets those images of light to make sense of them. What I'm doing is effectively "turning off" that interpretation function in my brain temporarily. I'm telling my brain to disregard the information my eyes are offering it. So what my brain experiences as "seeing" is a constant blur that's ever-changing but no identifiable detail. It's kind of intimidating the first time or two you try it, but if you practice it persistently, you get used to it.

A Sufi would tell you that the body is letting go of the "ego", the self, the part of you that's engaged in day-to-day life. Doing so rids you of distractions of the mundane world and allows your deeper self, your spiritual self, to then come to the forefront and experience something higher.

There have been times when I've briefly gone into trance when spinning and using this technique. It's not something I seek consciously, and it doesn't happen every time, but it has been known to happen. It's pretty cool when it does!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

The key is that I don't "look" at anything. Some people would describe it as letting your eyes go out of focus. Ie, I don't try to identify what I am seeing. I simply hold my neck still, my head steady, and allow my head to rotate together with the rest of my body on the axis.

I tell my students to let their eyes go blurry and unfocused, so that instead of seeing room spinning around you, you just see pretty colors going by. Do you remember the 3-D posters they used to have in the 90's? The ones where you would kind of cross your eyes, lose focus, and then suddenly see a dinasour or an airplane come right out of the random pattern (like here Image:Stereogram Tut Random Dot Shark.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That's the "looking through what's in front of you" kind of feel.

It's sort of like this - when your eyes "see" something, what's really happening is that they are transmitting images of light through the optic nerve to your brain, and your brain interprets those images of light to make sense of them. What I'm doing is effectively "turning off" that interpretation function in my brain temporarily. I'm telling my brain to disregard the information my eyes are offering it.

Exactly! In class, I compare it to an IMAX movie. It's not what's really happening that's important, it's what your brain thinks is happening. So when you sit in an IMAX, and watch a movie about flying over the Grand Canyon, you feel the movement even though you're sitting still. Your brain is interpreting the visual signal and sending the message to your body that you're moving. Unfocusing is the opposite - because you're not letting your brain "see" the movement, it can actually convince your body that you're not really moving.

I wouldn't say that I exactly have great technique but I love, love, love spinning in any shape and form.

When I start learning belly dance I quickly found out that instead of getting dizzy or queasy I just go massively high if I spin for a long time. Having said that, I do sometimes get a little dizzy and find that this is usually when I am very tired/dehydrated/not breathing properly (I've always found deep and inhalations and exhalations through the nose and in time with the music to be the best way).

One teacher I had found that it really helped her to touch her torso occasionally when she spun (it sort of 'reminded' her of where her centre was)

I know that I lot of people hate spinning but do find that if they keep at it little and often, things do improve for them. We're just learning a complex spin combination in class and its a challenge but loads of people have flat refused to even give it a go, whereas those who are game are already finding that they are feeling more comfortable with it, even if they are still a little dizzy.

I find it harder to spot than to dervish turn (when you really don't want to focus on anything, you retreat into yourself and let it all go by) because my neck is a bit crunchy and it can put a strain on that when I try too hard.

My hand writing becomes prettier when I practice the dervish technique of not seeing. I use this technique to sign my holiday cards - and I think of the best things to say using that technique. Sounds silly/flakey, but it's true. Does this happen you anyone else?

Originally Posted by gothique

I forgot you mentioned head injuries (I've a few of those too).

When you close your eyes, do you tend to lean or fall to much to one side (I will lean to the right, because I have a bad right ear).
I have to compensate for that.

Could you have a problem with your ears?

I have two bad inner ears -- inherited them from my dancing mother.

Isn't it wonderful? A professional dancer with bad balance . . . ..c::

Deborah

My teacher has taught me a few things to try. One is the just letting the colors go by. The trick with this is that your brain will want to TRY to see things, it just takes practice so your brain knocks it off. I also like the look at your hand move.

The other is after spinning in one direction for a while, give yourself about two or three spins in the opposite direction. This kind of counters the feeling of the world conintuing to spin. It sounds weird, but it works! Good luck.

Shira, thats a great post! Would you mind putting a copy of it on tribe? That way I can link to it for non-bhuz students.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

The key is that I don't "look" at anything. Some people would describe it as letting your eyes go out of focus. Ie, I don't try to identify what I am seeing. I simply hold my neck still, my head steady, and allow my head to rotate together with the rest of my body on the axis.

There have been times when I've briefly gone into trance when spinning and using this technique. It's not something I seek consciously, and it doesn't happen every time, but it has been known to happen. It's pretty cool when it does!

Shira, would you mind sharing some more about your Sufi spinning? I've used this before a performance to calm down, get centered and 'get the dizziness over with'. I was really stunned the first time I was in a Sufi retreat and those who had never done turning before were asked to try it. 15 or 20 minutes later I was still whirling (slowly) and only got dizzy when a thought slipped in questioning what I was doing--and, of course, when I stopped (crashed into the wall, even though I slowed down first). I am still able to do it for relatively long periods of time, but when DANCING, I do just a few turns and I am totally dizzy and off balance, even after all these years. I believe that when a Sufi master is directing the whirling, he or she can help maintain the energy and balance to help stabilize everyone -- but how about when you are alone -- does that unfocused gazing at or through your left extended arm help you? Do you tilt your head as you gaze inward? I'm familiar with the controversy about dancing to some of Tekbilek's CD's, but I use them for turning.....do you have some favorites? Any suggestions on practicing ...... would deeply appreciate anything you could share on this .......

PS -- there is a beautiful track on a CD by the Hasan Bitmez Project called "Dervisane" - Track 3.

Originally Posted by Khalida

Shira, thats a great post! Would you mind putting a copy of it on tribe? That way I can link to it for non-bhuz students.

Hi Khalida! I've posted it in my tribe. Here's the link: Share your advice on spinning without... - Belly Dancing - the Shira.net Tribe - tribe.net

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

Shira, would you mind sharing some more about your Sufi spinning?

I should say up front that I don't personally practice Sufism. I've been taught a little about it, and have done it in an instructional situation, but it's not something I do for meditation at home.

For performing purposes, I find it's best to choose a song that really moves me. In other words, if I can get lost in the music, I'm more likely to be able to keep the spin going. It's best if the song is something I can respond to on a very emotional level.

It also helps to be dancing in a place where there's plenty of space so that I don't have to worry about whether I'm going to crash into something or someone. But then, that's necessary for double veil anyway. The more potential distractions there are, the harder it is to keep the spin going.

I agree with Shira, that using the unfocussed or hand focus is a good idea. I actually prefer the look (unless you are doing something really Classical) with belly dance. I can (literally) do this for minutes at a time (record was 15 minutes - but it had an hour's preparation with someone who was Sufi trained)

My own (ballet) spotting is pretty rough, so one night we had a spin off between the bunheads (spotting) and the rest (unfocussed). The winning student used the non-spotting method.

Another consideration is the state of your neck arteries. If they are constricted for any reason then any head movement - such as whipping it around to spot - may further reduce blood supply - making you dizzier.

However, on the whole, most people improve by doing a little more each week.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I tell my students to let their eyes go blurry and unfocused, so that instead of seeing room spinning around you, you just see pretty colors going by. Do you remember the 3-D posters they used to have in the 90's? The ones where you would kind of cross your eyes, lose focus, and then suddenly see a dinasour or an airplane come right out of the random pattern (like here Image:Stereogram Tut Random Dot Shark.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That's the "looking through what's in front of you" kind of feel.



Exactly! In class, I compare it to an IMAX movie. It's not what's really happening that's important, it's what your brain thinks is happening. So when you sit in an IMAX, and watch a movie about flying over the Grand Canyon, you feel the movement even though you're sitting still. Your brain is interpreting the visual signal and sending the message to your body that you're moving. Unfocusing is the opposite - because you're not letting your brain "see" the movement, it can actually convince your body that you're not really moving.

Thanks ladies, I will SO be practicing this...

:)

Thanks, Shira! Everything helps!

Hey, turns aren't easy for most people, so don't lose faith.

First, make sure that your posture is strong and straight. Keep your pelvis tucked and ribcage lifted. Think of the posture ballarinas use, and model on that to a lesser extreme. If you can picture a string from the ceiling to the top of your head, holding you up, that sometimes helps.

I don't really spot much as my neck is often very stiff from my migraines. So, turn slowly to start, and don't do too much at a time. The trick I use is to get my head around to where I want to end up as quickly as possible, even if my body isn't there yet.

When I start new students turning, I have them do half turns across the room, spotting on where they are going (for half turns, spotting does help). Keep your feet under your hip bones, don't step out too far. The trick is to lift your body up from the floor as you move and start slowly.

When I first started dancing, the only thing I could do was spins, rather than X turns or anything stylized. Start with the kinds of turns you can manage slowly, then increase speed as you get more confident. With spins, I soften my vision and look slightly ahead of where my body is at the moment.

Hope that helps. Just keep at it and you'll be fine.

Amira