Thread: Seriously - you want all the classes for the price of one?

I'm always surprised by the questions students ask.

I'm teaching 3 classes in one night - a new 6 week session is about to start up. The price $75 for six weeks of a class. That figures out to be $12.50 per class.

Today the second person asked me if that was for all the classes or just one. And I can't help but think to myself, "Are you serious?" Let's do some math, all three classes, that would put it at just over $4 a class, a cut of which goes to the gym where I teach, and another cut to Uncle Sam, that leaves me with well, something less than a dollar per class per student. Considering that I'm investing some of my own money in advertising, I think I'd end up paying to teach.

Sigh....

How about this one: "Can I come for free for a few classes, and then if I like it I'll pay you?"

Not price related, but: "is there any dancing in your beginner's class?"

Originally Posted by Queenie

Not price related, but: "is there any dancing in your beginner's class?"

oh , that's funny.....l;,

Yup. I get people who figure if they've paid for one class, they should be allowed to 'just stay' for another one. That would be REALLY unfair to people who paid for both! (I do offer a discount if you want 2 classes).

My only exception -- my level 4 students are welcome to drop in on lower levels ANY time, but they dance upfront, alongside me, where they're not taking up student space. The lower level students have told me they really appreciate having 'bouncing booties' to follow that may be closer to their body type or whatever.

I used to go to another studio and the students there seemed to stay for a second and third class on any given day. I'm not sure how it worked. Every time I went someone would ask me if I was staying for the second class, and I'd respond, "No, because it's a different level and I didn't pay for it." But somehow they managed to stay in the classroom and join the second class. Maybe the student paid before class, and that's why the instructor didn't ask her to leave? One time I hung out after class, in the shop, and a couple of students stayed in the classroom and the instructor didn't bother them when the next class started. I left. I was really confused. I didn't return to the studio for completely different reasons, but I do wonder if there are teachers who allow this to happen...

Isn't it funny how most people wouldn't even think to ask their kids' ballet teachers that sort of question...but don't hesitate to ask a bellydance instructor???

Yup. I get people who figure if they've paid for one class, they should be allowed to 'just stay' for another one. That would be REALLY unfair to people who paid for both! (I do offer a discount if you want 2 classes).

My teacher also runs things on this system.

Last night we had a very innocent inquiry from a new student (last night was her second class). She hadn't realised that there was a second class at all and said 'Why, what do you *do* in it?' in totally stunned (and slightly suspicious) tones. When informed that the second class was for the intermediate and upwards students and was focussed on refining technique, challenging choreography and performance skills she blinked and said 'Oh, you mean there's more to it that I've learned so far?'

It was a genuine revelation

Originally Posted by Queenie

Not price related, but: "is there any dancing in your beginner's class?"

..l;,..l;,

Some studios let you come to as many classes as you want as long as it is your level or below so I don't think it was really a strange question to ask. Of course those studios own the space and don't usually rent it.

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

Some studios let you come to as many classes as you want as long as it is your level or below so I don't think it was really a strange question to ask. Of course those studios own the space and don't usually rent it.

I've also taken ballet classes at a couple studios that let you take anything below your level at no additional charge, so maybe she comes from that background?

Originally Posted by Queenie

Not price related, but: "is there any dancing in your beginner's class?"

Well, to be fair, my Beginning class format is 95% drill oriented, with almost no traveling moves. I introduce traveling, transitioning and combos in my Level 2 class, so technically there's really not much "dancing" going on in Beginning.

Originally Posted by khadiya

Last night we had a very innocent inquiry from a new student (last night was her second class). She hadn't realised that there was a second class at all and said 'Why, what do you *do* in it?' in totally stunned (and slightly suspicious) tones. When informed that the second class was for the intermediate and upwards students and was focussed on refining technique, challenging choreography and performance skills she blinked and said 'Oh, you mean there's more to it that I've learned so far?'

It was a genuine revelation

The first class of my Beginner session, I introduce shimmies, hip lifts/drops/bumps, figure 8's and a veil coat turn (we continue to work on them for the duration of the 6 weeks, adding new movements as we progress). I had a student last session come up to me and ask why she should bother coming back the next week, since I "obviously" had taught them everything in the very first class!

I have had a few students that are shocked, just shocked that I continue to take lessons and workshops at my level. "But you've been going it SO LONG!" they cry, after I tell them that I've been doing BD for a little over 5 years. ..c:: I really love to blow their minds by pointing out that most serious BDers continue to take classes and workshops *forever*, even master instructors who teach all over the world.

Studios that allow people to take as many classes as they want for free.... how do they avoid overcrowded classes? How do they know when a class is full?

My level 1 class is sometimes completely filled with level 1 students who paid for the class. If I let all the level 2-4 students drop in and take the class for free, it would be physically impossible for everyone to fit into the room, never mind see me or see themselves in the mirror!

That system seems very unfair to the lower level students who paid for a spot in the class.

I guess their studios must be MUCH larger than mine. And maybe the higher level students just follow along in the back and don't take up any of the instructor's time during class? Maybe... I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around how you'd do this and not take anything away from your paying students.

For free? Wow, I don't have any idea how that would work, either.

Where I dance, you enroll in a particular class at a particular level for the session. That's the class you're expected to attend for the most part, but you can do makeups in any class at your level or below. No classes are free for anyone, and you can't attend more hours than you've paid for in a given session -- if you pay for a ten-week session of one-hour classes, you get ten hours and that's it. If you've used up your hours (meaning that you "made up" more hours than you actually missed), you pay the regular drop-in fee for any additional ones you take during the session. Unused hours do not carry over from one session to the next, so there's a big incentive to do your makeups promptly.

(This applies only to technique and combinations classes, of course -- choregraphy-based classes run on a different system.)

OK, I've got one for you: The sister of my computer guy wanted to "try out' a class with her sister & cousin. I welcomed them to do a 'drop in' during the regular Wed class for the normal $12. They couldn't come at that time and bugged me for months to do a special class for them. I said I could only book the studio for extra hours if I had a minimum of 5 students for 4 weeks. Best I could do. They couldn't come when the studio was available and didn't want to commit to 4 classes. I offered an alternative: I come to THEIR home, teach a beginner class for 1-1/2 hours. This includes bringing music that they can keep to practice with, hip scarves to borrow for the class, a simple sheet of steps/mini choreog. to keep and a gift (hip scarf) for the hostess. $150. Good deal, right? She asked for a discount. I caved ONLY because the computer guy knows I need him, LOL......a one-time special price of $100. Another month of emails backand forth about the date. I've already spent over an hour in negotiations. One week before the FINAL date, I get an email: "My cuz can't make it. Can you recruit one more because of the "steep" price?" ?????? I emailed that the lowest going rate for this arrangement is $150 in our area, I had already discounted it by 1/3 as a favor to her brother, and if $25 each for everything they were getting was too much, then I was referring them to GigMasters or PartyPop......and I wished them luck, saying I was sure they could find something cheaper -- not professional, but cheaper. Whatcha all think? Did I do the right thing? (already know the answer, LOL, just need a little peer support here ......... )

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

OK, I've got one for you: The sister of my computer guy wanted to "try out' a class with her sister & cousin. I welcomed them to do a 'drop in' during the regular Wed class for the normal $12. They couldn't come at that time and bugged me for months to do a special class for them. I said I could only book the studio for extra hours if I had a minimum of 5 students for 4 weeks. Best I could do. They couldn't come when the studio was available and didn't want to commit to 4 classes. I offered an alternative: I come to THEIR home, teach a beginner class for 1-1/2 hours. This includes bringing music that they can keep to practice with, hip scarves to borrow for the class, a simple sheet of steps/mini choreog. to keep and a gift (hip scarf) for the hostess. $150. Good deal, right? She asked for a discount. I caved ONLY because the computer guy knows I need him, LOL......a one-time special price of $100. Another month of emails backand forth about the date. I've already spent over an hour in negotiations. One week before the FINAL date, I get an email: "My cuz can't make it. Can you recruit one more because of the "steep" price?" ?????? I emailed that the lowest going rate for this arrangement is $150 in our area, I had already discounted it by 1/3 as a favor to her brother, and if $25 each for everything they were getting was too much, then I was referring them to GigMasters or PartyPop......and I wished them luck, saying I was sure they could find something cheaper -- not professional, but cheaper. Whatcha all think? Did I do the right thing? (already know the answer, LOL, just need a little peer support here ......... )

You have done enought to try to work with these people. It is now no longer worth your time and energy. You did the right thing.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

You have done enought to try to work with these people. It is now no longer worth your time and energy. You did the right thing.

Definitely.

Deborah

oh my god. Tanya, you've bent over backwards for them. Let it go.

I get these people, too, who can't come to my classes because of scheduling issues and seem to think I'm obligated to make special arrangements for them. Do these same people expect the same things from the Y? From colleges? From judo classes? Weird.

THANKS, LADIES! I feel like I've been hugged!!! (I wouldn't even have done that much, but the economy is getting to all of us.) I also noted in my response to them that in order to pay the professionals I employ (computer technicians, mechanics, plumbers, etc.) their professional flat/minumum rates, I needed to adhere to my own. I also said that I felt I was undercutting my own community by discounting it in the first place.

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

OK, I've got one for you: The sister of my computer guy wanted to "try out' a class with her sister & cousin. I welcomed them to do a 'drop in' during the regular Wed class for the normal $12. They couldn't come at that time and bugged me for months to do a special class for them. I said I could only book the studio for extra hours if I had a minimum of 5 students for 4 weeks. Best I could do. They couldn't come when the studio was available and didn't want to commit to 4 classes. I offered an alternative: I come to THEIR home, teach a beginner class for 1-1/2 hours. This includes bringing music that they can keep to practice with, hip scarves to borrow for the class, a simple sheet of steps/mini choreog. to keep and a gift (hip scarf) for the hostess. $150. Good deal, right? She asked for a discount. I caved ONLY because the computer guy knows I need him, LOL......a one-time special price of $100. Another month of emails backand forth about the date. I've already spent over an hour in negotiations. One week before the FINAL date, I get an email: "My cuz can't make it. Can you recruit one more because of the "steep" price?" ?????? I emailed that the lowest going rate for this arrangement is $150 in our area, I had already discounted it by 1/3 as a favor to her brother, and if $25 each for everything they were getting was too much, then I was referring them to GigMasters or PartyPop......and I wished them luck, saying I was sure they could find something cheaper -- not professional, but cheaper. Whatcha all think? Did I do the right thing? (already know the answer, LOL, just need a little peer support here ......... )

Wow ! that is crazy! If they could'nt make it to your regular class, then how were they going to take classes after the "trial" class?

most studios do offer a class for free because you may not like the teachers style at all. A lot of beginner classes offer the first class for free because the person may decide after the first class that they absolutely HATE bellydance.
I recruited my sister for a bellydance class one time and she quit after the first class because she didn't like that the teacher only drilled in place either. I just started travelling while doing the moves on my own when I got bored.
I think it is possible to incorporate a simple choreography even in a beginner class to make people feel like they are really dancing.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Studios that allow people to take as many classes as they want for free.... how do they avoid overcrowded classes? How do they know when a class is full?

Two places I've studied did this:

One was the Cecchetti-style ballet studio where I took when I was little. Once you got to a certain grade, you were allowed into the lower level classes for free. But, once you were at that higher level you were probably paying for three to five (or more) classes a week and there were much fewer high grade dancers than lower grade dancers.

The other place that operated this way was the dance department at my university. If you were taking major-level classes (300 and up) you could take any lower level class. Studios were big. My modern class probably had close to thirty people in it. Faculty were....well, faculty, not paid on a per session/class/student basis.

Another studio where I took dance classes there was an "unlimited classes" tuition rate. At that amount per semester, you could take as many classes as you wanted. I don't know if they required enrollment in individual classes or allowed you to drop in. I assumed this was for super serious bun-head families.

Not saying it makes sense or that ANYONE should expect this (I certainly don't!) but it does happen sometimes at other places.

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

I recruited my sister for a bellydance class one time and she quit after the first class because she didn't like that the teacher only drilled in place either.

I have lost students because of how I've formatted my class, I'm sure. But I can only teach the way that it makes sense for me to teach. I find that the drilling builds strength and flexilbility, and also forces the students (most of whom have poor body awareness) to focus on where they are powering the moves from.

I just started travelling while doing the moves on my own when I got bored.

I would not be happy if someone started doing that in one of my classes. ,m:: It's rude and distracting to the other students, IMO. If someone did that in one of my classes, I'd suggest they get their money back and refer them to an instructor that I know does a less drill oriented format. It doesn't hut my feelings if people don't like how my classes are formatted - hey, it's a free country and there's plenty of other teachers in my neck of the woods. But if you choose to stay in my class, you can't be off doing your own thing when I'm trying to teach a room full of Beginners.

I think it is possible to incorporate a simple choreography even in a beginner class to make people feel like they are really dancing.

It is, and I know there are many excellent teachers who use this method. It's just not how I choose to run my classes, and if I lose students because of it, so be it. It's not my intention to be all things to all students, nor could I be even if I wanted to.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I have lost students because of how I've formatted my class, I'm sure. But I can only teach the way that it makes sense for me to teach. I find that the drilling builds strength and flexilbility, and also forces the students (most of whom have poor body awareness) to focus on where they are powering the moves from.



I would not be happy if someone started doing that in one of my classes. ,m:: It's rude and distracting to the other students, IMO. If someone did that in one of my classes, I'd suggest they get their money back and refer them to an instructor that I know does a less drill oriented format. It doesn't hut my feelings if people don't like how my classes are formatted - hey, it's a free country and there's plenty of other teachers in my neck of the woods. But if you choose to stay in my class, you can't be off doing your own thing when I'm trying to teach a room full of Beginners.



It is, and I know there are many excellent teachers who use this method. It's just not how I choose to run my classes, and if I lose students because of it, so be it. It's not my intention to be all things to all students, nor could I be even if I wanted to.

I agree. There has to be different formats out there so that people can find the one that fits them. I have no trouble watching a traveling step and following along. There are those however that have no bloody idea what they are suppose to do. For them, starting with drilling to get a sense of body awareness, figure out that there are muscles that move those parts of your body first helps them so that when traveling steps are introduced, they don't fall over or quit. I like a more dancey class and then I drill like nuts at home. Different strokes.


I do think that it is weird that a student would assume right off the bat that the fee included all classes. I would start by asking how taking multiple classes works and go from there. I would never start with the idea that they were a buy one get all senario.

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

Wow ! that is crazy! If they could'nt make it to your regular class, then how were they going to take classes after the "trial" class?

most studios do offer a class for free because you may not like the teachers style at all. A lot of beginner classes offer the first class for free because the person may decide after the first class that they absolutely HATE bellydance.
I recruited my sister for a bellydance class one time and she quit after the first class because she didn't like that the teacher only drilled in place either. I just started travelling while doing the moves on my own when I got bored.
I think it is possible to incorporate a simple choreography even in a beginner class to make people feel like they are really dancing.

I offer the first ever class free but then it is a block fee. Some students mistake that for a course fee and assume that after 5 or 6 weeks they'll be bellydancer par excellance..they realise in lesson 2,they'l have to invest a little more. I drill moves and moving depends on the size of the class. WE do end up putting together simple choreographies because the class is mixed ability and some different challenge is necessary. I prefer straightforward routines which give plenty of opportunity for moves to be done well rather than dancers struggling with something spectacular anyway.
If students son't like my style, there's other teachers to chose from. Some may want just a way to get some aerobic exercise or the chance to chat to friends...me..yes have fun but let's try to do it properly.
Which is why the free hour then some commitment.

Originally Posted by Mayliz

I used to go to another studio and the students there seemed to stay for a second and third class on any given day. I'm not sure how it worked. Every time I went someone would ask me if I was staying for the second class, and I'd respond, "No, because it's a different level and I didn't pay for it." But somehow they managed to stay in the classroom and join the second class. Maybe the student paid before class, and that's why the instructor didn't ask her to leave? One time I hung out after class, in the shop, and a couple of students stayed in the classroom and the instructor didn't bother them when the next class started. I left. I was really confused. I didn't return to the studio for completely different reasons, but I do wonder if there are teachers who allow this to happen...

My tribal instructor has an "unlimited monthly" rate option. That is, we can pay a certain amount and go to as many classes as we like (and are available)--within reason. A beginner couldn't come to the intermediate/advanced class, for instance. (However, intermediate/advanced students can go to any of the classes.) I use this option, but generally attend only my intermediate/advanced drills class and my improv/choreo class, even though I could, in theory go to the other classes. It's still slightly cheaper to pay the monthly rate than to pay by the week for both classes. Another option she has is a 4-visit class card, but the monthly rate is cheaper than that, for doing two classes.

Anyway, perhaps those instructors have a similar system.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I have lost students because of how I've formatted my class, I'm sure. But I can only teach the way that it makes sense for me to teach. I find that the drilling builds strength and flexilbility, and also forces the students (most of whom have poor body awareness) to focus on where they are powering the moves from.



I would not be happy if someone started doing that in one of my classes. ,m:: It's rude and distracting to the other students, IMO. If someone did that in one of my classes, I'd suggest they get their money back and refer them to an instructor that I know does a less drill oriented format. It doesn't hut my feelings if people don't like how my classes are formatted - hey, it's a free country and there's plenty of other teachers in my neck of the woods. But if you choose to stay in my class, you can't be off doing your own thing when I'm trying to teach a room full of Beginners.



.

yes, i agree that there are many benefits to drilling and like to practice drills at home, but on the other hand, if a teacher drills one move for the whole class, it becomes very boring, not to mention causes the potential to injure yourself.

Originally Posted by mrsnj20

yes, i agree that there are many benefits to drilling and like to practice drills at home, but on the other hand, if a teacher drills one move for the whole class, it becomes very boring, not to mention causes the potential to injure yourself.

Oh my goodness, no we don't just drill one move - that would get very boring. We start out with 6-7 moves, and then add 2-3 new moves per class over the course of 6 weeks

Originally Posted by laura 2

Oh my goodness, no we don't just drill one move - that would get very boring. We start out with 6-7 moves, and then add 2-3 new moves per class over the course of 6 weeks

This is what I do for the most part. I teach specific traveling steps (chasse, etc), and do some traveling with moves like walking hip lifts, but most things are pretty much drilling in place.

Deborah

Putting teaching and class drilling aside, everyone teaches in thier own style... there are some students who will try to get something for nothing, always will be. There are students who do not "get it" and never will. It is up to instructors who are self employed and NEED the income for the service they provide to adhere to their own policies (you made the policies for a reason, they make sense!), and answer these people in a calm, professional manner.
some of my favorite answers:
I'm going to be on vacation for two weeks of the session, can I not pay for these weeks?"
answer: "Is your cable, gas, electric, rent, and phone company still charging you for these weeks."
(We provide a the service of teaching, we are there in class every week)
"I can't make it to your classes can you teach me in private, for a lower rate and travel to my home to do it?"
answer: " I'm sorry your scedule doesn't permit you to make it to classes scheduled Tues- Fri every week. My schedule doesn't permeit me to teach you at you home at a lower rate."
Granted these answers only were given after the first "no" was given!
Just two examples. It may seem mean, but let us face it, we all love teaching and love making the students we teach have a wonderful experience in class, that is why we teach! Sometimes with that mind set we feel guilty about not giving in to this kind of thing. We need to step back and think about it as if we were asking for it? If there is no way YOU would think it is appropriate to ask then maybe it isn't!
Sometimes there are people you just can not make happy!