Thread: Daring, Innovative, "Pushing the Envelope"

It seems as though there are a lot of performers who go into a particular show with the intention of doing something "daring", or "innovative", or "provocative" or "pushing the envelope".

Now, in THEORY I don't mind innovation, but in my experience many of the performances that seek to be these things are stuff I wouldn't use the above words to describe. Instead, the words I would use after the fact are more likely to be "annoying" or "offensive" or "stupid".

I have seen "daring" or "innovative" performances that I've liked. So it's not a matter of my being too narrow-minded to appreciate creativity.

Rather, in the performances I've disliked I think it comes down to the performer's intention - ie, the performer is so focused on her goal of trying to shock or provoke that she creates something whose aims are solely selfish, solely-attention-seeking without substance.

There seem to be a lot of performers who want to "push the envelope". But is pushing the envelope honestly and truly a "good" thing that people should aim for, or is it often just masturbatory "look at me" behavior?

weell last time i posed this similar question i got my a## handed to me so "good luck" !!!

seriously i think masturbatory performances abound on bd regardless of style cause many dancers refuse to meet the audience halfway & DEMAND adulation no matter what. they deem performance. applause, praise a right. i feel this comes from doing too many "in house" gigs. when you dance for the GP & they pick up their money & leave you learn to evaluate your act or the club just doesn't have you back. there are checks & balances. not a bd events. tina

Shira dear,

While I do enjoy reading your insights and opinions it would be helpful if I had something more visual to go on to draw my own conclusions.....

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing the envelope... Maybe that is hard for me cause I've seen a lot and what use to be shocking or innovative is now plain boring......,s::

I would just settle for a good show that has normal cabaret dancing without all the gimicks....,r:; yep.... thats what I like. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Lucinia

I would just settle for a good show that has normal cabaret dancing without all the gimicks....,r:; yep.... thats what I like. ..g.:

I think this quote hits the nail on the head (unless I'm misinterpreting what Shira posted). At least some dancers seem to believe that they have to do something totally amazing in their show -- whether that's aesthetically pleasing or not -- because they don't think that their dance skills alone will hold or impress an audience. Saqra jokes about this and calls it "juggling flaming chainsaws."

It all depends on intent for me. I'm a fan of works that go beyond the "normal" and have a real meaning as to why they're doing something different. The best example I can think of is this artist named Shirin Neshat. I saw her work (photography and video) about 3 years ago and they've stayed with me. Very provocative because they have a real purpose.

Pushing the envelope unfortunately for a lot of people means showing nudity or doing sexual things without any thought of anything being the aesthetic. Personally, I'm tired of "innovative" meaning sexual things or nudity; I was once going to do some modeling for a photographer and backed out, because his idea of innovation and provocative were nudes, semi-nudes, or suggested nudes. He was a legit photographer and his work, from what I saw, was indeed interesting, but he could not get his mind beyond that, which I frankly find sad. I mentioned Shirin Neshat in the paragraph before because she is an artist (granted, different medium but still) who has managed not to use sex and nudity to create a great work of art. If you aren't familiar with her work, please google it and look at the images. They're even more breathtaking in person.

I'm not opposed necessarily to nudity/sexuality or scantily clad people, but at the same time, I think we box ourselves in when we see that (or violence) as being the only path to being daring and innovative.

Sometimes, it seems like a "normal" cabaret performance is becoming daring and original now.

My initial reaction to the question is that there's a difference between a performer deciding to push the envelope, innovate, work outside the box, etc. and a performer who falls for a piece of music and, in the course of interpreting it, finds herself working in innovative ways.

One is all about 'look at me! I'm new and different, sexier, more artsy" and the other is all about having the courage to follow your creativity when it happens to lead someplace new.

Does that make sense? Just an initial thought....

Originally Posted by bintbeled

Saqra jokes about this and calls it "juggling flaming chainsaws."

Now that is a visual I can picture in my head... ..l;, ..l;, Would this be done to a Saidi?

Hmmmm, is it wrong to express one's self and be daring and innovative? No, not when it is done in the right setting. I believe the majority of dancers know when and when not to "push the envelope". As for the ones that don't, eventually, they will not be welcomed back to gigs,haflas and other dance related settings. From what I have read (I don't live in England) the "Pubegate" person is a great example.

To me it seems that performances that tend to lead to the daring side have the word "fusion" posted infront of it and I'm not saying ALL performances that are fusion are sexual in nature. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when I go to a performance I prepare myself for "unusual" dances when I see fusion posted in the performance flyer. That way, I'm not totally caught off guard. ..c::

Did that make any sense?

most of innovation in the bd world is masturbatory behavior, and it's old and boring.
I want to see bd at bd shows, unless asked to do something different.
I go to lots of modern dance shows with my mentor and we see alot of selfish dance in other dance worlds too, however, with the exception that in other dance forms , via reviews from critics, they get their *ss*es handed to them as tinah says
If you don't have anything intelligent to say in your dance - then don't do it.
"woman on woman - woman on man sex acts " half naked costuming, O porn faces, dueling sword bits, etc., etc. unless it has meaning within the context of the dance, please save it for your living room and spare the rest of us.
Signed,
Maria
(modern dance afficianado & dancer) - but please keep it out of bd UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
thank you.
(man, I'm getting cranky, must be PMS time)

i've been pretty "expressive" this year but in every instance you could tell what i was doing a mile away AND i was doing it at "different" events. if your "expression" means people are left sitting in the audience thinking WTF you missed the mark.

my fave example was an act i saw at CC 4 years ago when one minute they were in tradition ghawzee (sp) then somebody came out with toilet paper hanging outa their pants then somebody came out dressed in a work jump suit wearing a pig mask & pushing a broom?????!!!!!!!

this was a general bd event so i'm not beating up on an alternative event or dancers. i had students with ME. explaining THAT was fun. some never went back to CC after that.

so express, innovate BUT THINK !!! while you're at it. tina

I think Maria hit oe of the keys on the head. As with Fusion, there is nothing wrong with pushing the envelop or fusing, as long as you have a strong base from which it work. If you do now have the knowledge of the art form(s) to start with, then how can you know when you are pushing the edges and not simply making a hash of it.

Not that all hash is bad. I happen to love a good corned beef hash on occassion, but only if the parts are all good to start with.

Which brings us back to point 1. . .

{{{HUGS}}}}

so express, innovate BUT THINK !!! while you're at it. tina

Yes, THINK!!! hahahaha

Originally Posted by Lucinia

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing the envelope... Maybe that is hard for me cause I've seen a lot and what use to be shocking or innovative is now plain boring......

I was trying to avoid citing specific examples because I'd rather not make this a critique of particular individuals and their choices, but rather discussion of "pushing the envelope" in general. Indigostars picked up on what I'm thinking, as did Maria and Tinah.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

It seems as though there are a lot of performers who go into a particular show with the intention of doing something "daring", or "innovative", or "provocative" or "pushing the envelope".

Now, in THEORY I don't mind innovation, but in my experience many of the performances that seek to be these things are stuff I wouldn't use the above words to describe. Instead, the words I would use after the fact are more likely to be "annoying" or "offensive" or "stupid".

I have seen "daring" or "innovative" performances that I've liked. So it's not a matter of my being too narrow-minded to appreciate creativity.

Rather, in the performances I've disliked I think it comes down to the performer's intention - ie, the performer is so focused on her goal of trying to shock or provoke that she creates something whose aims are solely selfish, solely-attention-seeking without substance.

There seem to be a lot of performers who want to "push the envelope". But is pushing the envelope honestly and truly a "good" thing that people should aim for, or is it often just masturbatory "look at me" behavior?

Exactly, Shira! What people are having problems with is recognizing when performers primary intent is to shock audience & dance community then the dance quality is secondary to that intent and not only the performance suffers, it's the image of bellydance that suffers greatly even with damage control. We are a society free to express ourselves publicly any way we want, but with that freedom does come responsibility and that is what needs to be emphasized over and over again. Teachers do have some control over their students' performance content and so do event organizers, club owners. And even if a dancer doesn't fall into any of these groups, there is always the choice NOT to take workshops or buy DVD's or attend performances of a performer who opts for "shock" over substance.

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing the envelope... Maybe that is hard for me cause I've seen a lot and what use to be shocking or innovative is now plain boring......

I'll just make up a hypothetical. Let's say I wanted to do a dance with another dancer and recreate the Janet Jackson/Justin Timberlake thing. Not as a commentary on the media/public reaction but because I knew it would get tongues wagging.

I think all of this boils down to something posted on the Suhaila tribe: do you dance to express or impress?

i think there is nothing WRONG with dancing to "express". an emotional piece can be good. i think there is nothing WRONG with dancing to "impress". a dance throw down by a hawt dancer can be fun.

what i have always thought seemed to be BAD was to dance to ENTERTAIN. gasp ya mean take the audience into account!! you mean try to be pleasing??

i think bders due to feminizing have a hard time with this. it seems submissive. t-h, ca. did an excellent article in habibi about the patriarchal gaze. i do believe many dancers have an adversial relationship with their audience, with their bosses, with event orgs. it all seems to be out to "get" them.

now ratchet it up a noche with pirates, bondage, rock, cat fights. yup i think many are pissed. do i think all experimental pieces are just some angry inner 14 year old acting out?? NO. let's face it most of us are of the rock generation we dance to this music normally & some see no reason why they can't bd to it.

another BAD thing to admit is liking attention. liking being looked at. that seems whorish.

everybody hides behind the label "artist".

i freely admit i like attention. i freely admit my goal has been to improve & then hopefully impress. i freely admit "expression" is harder. i had a repressed childhood. i don't need to open a vein on stage. i do like to touch the sublime that can occasionally happen. when you hair stand up on end...

at this moment i weighing the ethics of being "different" at a general bd event like vegas in front of a tough crowd. is it acting out??? not sure.

the operative word here though is THINKING & you won't need a program to understand it. if somebody has to do a long winded intro so people "get" your expression you're still mute. tina

Tinah, that's it! I happen to love to ENTERTAIN! That's what I do, Entertain. I'm hired to entertain at events, restaurants, parties, etc.
I "like" the spotlight, but with that comes responsibility........
responsibility into knowing your audience, responsbibility to be well-versed in your chosen dance form(s) especially if you are going to fuse.
I don't see what's wrong with entertaining, and if you don't like to be looked at, well then, why are you in the spotlight?
To express? If people ain't lookin', you ain't expressin".
signed,
maria, who likes to entertain, be in the spotlight and "gasp" being looked at.

Okay, full disclosure, second BDSS show I was asked to be in, they wanted me to do snake. So, I did not want to do the old boring boring, come out - take snake out of box, whatever, dance with said snake, put it back.
I developed OVER 6 MONTHS with my dance mentor, an entire piece with my snake. I fused modern with bellydance, and it was fabulous, i'm still getting compliments about it.
I have a whole passel of tribal gals in colorado who are my fans because they completely got my piece.
My mentor and I had an entire story board developed over it. I worked my butt off on a 5 minute piece.
Basically, the lighting was lit that I threw a huge shadow on the back wall, I had smoke from incense coming up, so that added to the atmosphere, I danced to Solitude on the Ahsas Solace CD, it was really intense.
I am versed in modern technique and obviously BD. It worked, and I wish I had the vid and I am hoping for the opportunity to do it again.......
I was not humping anyone, swashbuckling pirate, etc. etc. My piece had a meaning and thought behind it -
okay, done tooting me own horn, but I was/am very proud of that piece.

Well I wasn't asking for specific names or critiques just a visual reference... juggling flaming chainsaw? that I can picture in my head, but I guess I'm not as smart as the others.........

i'm dying to explode barbie's out of a volcano in a dance piece (modern), but my mentor told me that's old, been done, boring and pedestrian.
LOL!
(I really do)
I know, I'll do it with a shimmy so I can do it at the next bellydance show!

Half of good belly dance performance is good dancing. the other half is good theatre. Not to get back to a Fifi moment, but she did speak about how we present ourselves to our audience. Are we coming out owning the stage, or turning around to the audience and flipping them the bird? (dancer with bird is a true story)

If you are a good dancer, and you can put on a good theatrical performance, then you can push the envelope. Then you can do experimental. But doing somethign simply because it can be done, and not trying to do it well, make it entertaining, that is where the problems start to develope.

{{{HUGS}}}

Lucinia - google Desert Sin. They are an Alt Belly dance group which pushes the envelope very, very well. I may not agree with all that they do, but they do what they do very, very well.

Also, check out Amara's Evening of Experimental Middle Eastern Dance DVD's. They puch as well.

{{{HUGS}}}

that's the deal, if you want to experiment, please do your homework.
I like desert sin....

"pushing the envelope" when it comes to dancing about objectification of women's bodies, empowering female roles, etc is all over the place. If you want to say something new or interesting, you have to work *really* hard.

On the other hand, there's a whole world of politics and other social relations that people I think have been to shy about. Despite how natural it would be to use belly dance to tell a story about modern political conflicts, or about the way social and religious groups isolate themselves - there are very few dancers exploring these concepts.

Scanty clothing is the "safe" way to be daring.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

My initial reaction to the question is that there's a difference between a performer deciding to push the envelope, innovate, work outside the box, etc. and a performer who falls for a piece of music and, in the course of interpreting it, finds herself working in innovative ways.

One is all about 'look at me! I'm new and different, sexier, more artsy" and the other is all about having the courage to follow your creativity when it happens to lead someplace new.

Does that make sense? Just an initial thought....

It makes perfect sense to me and I think says it all. For me everything has to come back to the music, no matter what your chosen style is. I do some dancing that is conceptual and not just pretty steps strung together in time to the music (and there's nothing wrong with that when it's what you want!), but I found the concept in the music, I didn't start with a concept and then find some piece of music that I could make fit it. To me, that's the only honest way of being a *dancer*.

Thanks! I just checked them out... I will with hold my comments cause I don't feel like dodging bullets....

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

For me everything has to come back to the music, no matter what your chosen style is.

Although I'd agree with this, I'd also say "respect for the audience" and "appropriateness to the occasion" are important considerations. Using the song "The Stripper" and stripping down naked at Rakkasah might be all about the music, but still extremely inappropriate to the occasion and disrespectful the desires/expectations of that audience...

Originally Posted by antimony

"pushing the envelope" when it comes to dancing about objectification of women's bodies, empowering female roles, etc is all over the place. If you want to say something new or interesting, you have to work *really* hard.

On the other hand, there's a whole world of politics and other social relations that people I think have been to shy about. Despite how natural it would be to use belly dance to tell a story about modern political conflicts, or about the way social and religious groups isolate themselves - there are very few dancers exploring these concepts.

Scanty clothing is the "safe" way to be daring.

BRAVA! ..g.: Well said!

We are having issues on the local level with dancers pushing the envelope by fusing western dance forms and western music with belly dancing. I won't be more specific about that, but the point is that they are dancing at shows sponsored by the Middle Eastern Dance Guild. If their dance doesn't fit under the name "Middle Eastern Dance," as non-specific as that is, then it doesn't belong onstage at a Guild show. .p::

Experiment all you want but do it in a venue that is appropriate for it.

And performers DO have a big responsibility to the audience, but also to the Art form. If you have fused your dance with so many things and set it to non-traditional music to the point that it is no longer recognizable as "belly dance," let alone "raqs sharqi," then don't call it belly dance. Call it World Fusion Dance or something and perform it at the World Fusion Dance shows.

I just wrote a whole article about this and I do believe that people are self-indulgent if they get up onstage and expect the audience to be "with" them when they are making choices based purely on their personal tastes and not for artistic reasons. :thumbs_down:

How about fusing it with good technique, good stage presence, and a clear intention for the performance? So that you give your audience something to feel, something to think about, or something to admire or be transported by for those minutes when you are the center of their attention.

But the people who need to hear it may not be listening.

Originally Posted by dunyah

How about fusing it with good technique, good stage presence, and a clear intention for the performance? So that you give your audience something to feel, something to think about, or something to admire or be transported by for those minutes when you are the center of their attention.

But the people who need to hear it may not be listening.

excellent! Where can your article be read, I would love to read it!