Thread: Attitudes to learning

I'm not sure I'm going to articulate this very well but I've been thinking about this for a while and would welcome other thoughts.

I've been wondering about the different attitudes to learning that different students have in different classes, in different countries. This is because, in many of the classes that I have attended over the years, there has been an underlying attitude from many of the students that it is not the 'done thing' to be seen to make an effort.

To clarify:

I'm not talking about people who go to class for a bit of fun and fitness, I'm actually talking about those individuals who claim that they want to develop their dance and to improve/to take things to the next level. In pretty much every class I have ever attended there have been people who have wanted to go further and yet who will violently shy away from appearing to work hard in class.

I've found this to be particularly the case when it comes to learning choreographies. On every single occasion that I have ever done this, whether in past classes with previous teachers, or in my current class which has an improvers/casual performers group, there has been a definite sense that somehow it is 'too much to be expected' that people learn sequences/combinations in time to and in response to the music because they 'might have to try'. I recognise that many people do not have outstanding memories for this kind of thing, but I am puzzled that otherwise good, capable dancers display this attitude.

Its never been overt, I've always encountered it as dark mutterings and moanings which gets loader when a teacher suggests that the answer is to 'just knuckle down and learn it' or when the musician or ex-ballet student memorises it quickly and with ease (held to be 'showing off/showing everyone else up')

During the Olympics here there was a lot of coverage in the UK papers about how our sports Psychologists and coaches have had to work hard with our athletes because of an ingrained British attitude that it is somehow 'Just not ok to succeed' and that 'Trying for success is getting above yourself'

This got me thinking that the attitudes to leaning might be a British thing.

What does Bhuz think? Do people in other countries encounter similar attitudes?

What you're saying about the Olympics coverage is interesting, Khadiya, because we get exactly the same stories in NZ media every time we don't win in a sporting event - it's the insidious effect of evil Political Correctness and the way it encourages kids to enjoy sports or other activities without necessarily having to win. Oh No. Also, the failure of NZ athletes to eat enough red meat instead of namby pamby pasta, apparently.

Showing off is *very* verboten in our culture, more so than in England. It's changing a little, but NZ and Australia don't both talk about Tall Poppy Syndrome for nothing - it's very real. But achievement is good. Ideally you achieve impossible, world-beating feats and be very humble about it, a la Edmund Hillary.

I don't find on the whole that students refuse to learn. What tends to happen in my experience is that students who say they want to do more but don't will come up against obstacles, like "it's not my style," "I want to do it differently," "this class choreography just doesn't move me," BUT they want the teacher to provide that magical missing factor for them. Because the teacher doesn't, they drift away. But they don't seem to take up classes with anyone else, or start working much on their own. It's particularly noticeable with oriental, probably because oriental is ultimately an individual thing and at some point you have to start doing your own work. Not so much with tribal, because tribal girls like working with other tribal girls and they're always putting some new tribal project or other together. If they get bored, they also drift off, often to oriental, actually.

But in the main, the people who stick around, stick around, and they practice and learn. My students know my choreos better than I do.

I understand what you mean about the dark mutterings and I have my own take on it as a teacher. I'm sure half my class don't believe me when I say that learning moves and choreography conmes from hard work, practice and concentration. They look at me with a look that says 'you may say that but I think there's a secret formula you're not telling us!'

Some even say but how come you can do it/learn it so easily and I explain that when I was a student I did 4 classes a week, I still dance at least 3 times a week, I still attend workshops and if I have to learn a choreography for a performance I have to practice like anyone else or I don't remember it. They look in disbelief and say but it easy for you you have a good memory for choreography. I do but that's because I went to ballet class from age 5 to 22, I have the discipline to drill moves I can't do, repeat choreography until I know it and really listen to the music.

I hate to call it laziness but there are some people who think there is just a magic wand that you wave and become better and whilst they say they're prepared to work hard when it really comes down to it, they can't be bothered. Perhaps it is a British attitude of not trying too hard to succeed. It may also be to do with motivation, I find my class worked a lot harder when I once auditioned them for a performance group and not all got in, they suddenly realised that to improve and get to the standard I expected they would have to work hard. But it's not very often we give that type of motivation to our students 'cos we (should I say I but I bet I'm not the only one!) worry too much about excluding people and how they feel and classes being welcoming and inclusive. There's nothing wrong with that but we have to be clear that improvement only comes with hard work.

From teaching math, I see the differences too.

For some people, things always came easy. And when they hit that class where they have to work....they are really not ready for it, and some just don't know how to deal.

And I have seen the people that have pushed themselves almost too far trying to "get it right". I think I respond better to these types of learners, because I can see the effort. But, the others are trying to own there own way.

To discover that you have to look at why people come to class.
There are a majority who want to keep fit,have fun meeting other women once a week, do something different.
Folks also have a clouded view of their abilities. Some are sure they are "getting it", others think I "never will but I'll do my best".
Some will never have the ear for the music, will never be a quick at taking moves on board, be as dedicated in practise.
many of your classmates will "have another life"
An awful lot will not expect to work hard..."why what for. I'm fair and forty and I am doing this to get away from my everyday life".
Mixed up with those gals are the deciated few...a chance to be a pro, gain a real love of the culture.
Don't you envy teacher having to unravel that, please all her students? She cannot operate without her funsters, her hopeless cases. She can't travel, train, hire buy equipment just for the one or two promising going somewhere young things, the 3 or 4 totally obsessed..she has to rely on the "I can't come next week..my friend isn't!". And I for one am not going to knock them. People take from an activity what they want, what they can.
If I want to have a snappy, skilled troupe it will have be apart from general class situation because I am never going to say to "Miss 2 left-feet who comes every week sun or shine but never gets anywhere", you ain't taking part.
You form a troupe to do that.
Important things with a class situation are to open students' eyes to possibilites, present them with the cultural realities and instill good taste as well as teach safe and solid technique.
You cannot impose attitudes on everyone. Some girls just wanna have fun.

yes, and most people don't or won't be pushed outside their comfort zone. They don't want to hear that they are not good at the dance for whatever reason, or that they have no rhythm, or that they are hearing the music but not listening to it, or that they are not injecting any energy into their movements, blah, blah, ad nauseum blah....

I get so sick of people whinging about how they want to progress and then stick em in an 'advanced' class, and they fall apart, spit out their dummies, and don't come back.

Did these students take any kind of dance or other group activity before? Maybe they don't realize that people work their asses off to be cohesive and skilled.

It might also be the individual student... Some people want all the glory without any of the effort. I have friends like that in other performance areas who don't practice, yet somehow expect to be amazing.

Maybe, though, it goes back the a lot of people's idea that belly dance is easy, and that's why they give you a hard time

I don't think this is merely a UK phenomenon. My experience has been that a lot of students just want instant gratification...the reward without the effort. It's like fad diets...God forbid that one would eat well and exercise when there is a magic pill/procedure/whatever that will fix the problem with minimal effort.

I also feel that in belly dance in general there is an atmosphere of forced nicety where critique is looked at as "mean," so dancers with little skill are coddled and fostered and given completely unrealistic visions of their own ability.

Nisaa

In the US, we're a bit less self-effacing of course.

But we're all about being Cool. And starting in junior high, it's just not cool to be an eager beaver student, to sit in the front row and raise your hand a lot and seem interested in the schoolwork.

When I was a beginner, I was literally the only student in my class who had aspirations to ever dance professionally, or even to dance solo at a hafla. I never talked about my dreams to the other students and tried to avoid looking as dedicated as I was because I just didn't fit in and I'm certain students exchanged looks whenever I seemed to be 'showing off' in class. I never told ANYONE how much I was practicing, or that I spent my days at work reading Shira.net!

That constricted my in-class behavior, but didn't stop me from practicing, learning, buying videos, and later joining Bhuz. Most of my students do none of the above. I don't think it's because others might think less of them -- I think they're just not that dedicated.

Of course they want instant gratification -- who wouldn't want that? It's true that until we set a bar they can't sneak under they'll keep trying to climb higher and higher without putting forth effort. Heck, who wouldn't, as long as they could?

I also struggle with where to draw certain lines, and at what point to become exclusive. After all, this is recreation for my students, not career, why shouldn't they be having fun?

I'm thinking that for me, that line is performance outside the dance community. If you want to present this art form to the general public, you need to be dedicated to presenting it well. I haven't done anything with that decision yet, but I'm leaning that way.

Sorry, did I just sidetrack myself right off the point?

Maybe, though, it goes back the a lot of people's idea that belly dance is easy, and that's why they give you a hard time

I think that the whole 'belly dance is easy' perception may certainly have a role to play in all of this. Would one experience the same thing to the same degree in an adult tap, jazz dance or ballet class I wonder? (I don't know, I've no experience of either).

The attitudes I am referring to have never been specific or in anyway focussed upon *any* individual in any of the classes that have attended. They are more a pervasive and persistent sense that trying hard, having a go is somehow 'bad' and that improvement/success is something that should be kept very, very quiet about. Its a question of there being a minority/majority division in terms of people who are willing to give things a whirl and to give them a whirl with good grace and those who just prefer not to.

The reason I am also interested in this is that I have never actually been to a class where anyone who is talented/musical/semi-pro is deliberately pushing their own abilities in anyone elses face and being obnoxious about it. As a result, I was wondering if it was perhaps a cultural thing.

Also all of these vibes have come from people who are basically competent and who talk a lot about wanting to up their game. Other people attend class for other, equally valid, reasons and are up front about it. I can respect that.

But we're all about being Cool. And starting in junior high, it's just not cool to be an eager beaver student, to sit in the front row and raise your hand a lot and seem interested in the schoolwork.

I suspect that this is also another major part of it.
I'm probably being hopelessly naive in thinking that in an adult class which people both pay for and choose to attend, some of those individuals might have grown out of this way of thinking.

Again for those who are there only for a laugh and a bop, carry on, I'm not thinking of you folks.

This thread is some timely. But my problem is a bit backwards. I have a student who has specifically asked for a special class where I just critique her for the whole thing. She always asks me to point out any mistakes.

When I do though, I get an injury report. Last week when I comment that her ascents from and descents to the floor were awkward she told me part of her toe had been cut off and she didn't know how. She always has an excuse as to why she can't do something or she raises her voice that she IS doing what I asked of her.

What really cheesed me off was when I complimented another student on her hip work (she told me she'd been practicing and it SHOWS) the injury plagued girl bragged she "doesn't have time for homework" and "never does it."

Important things with a class situation are to open students' eyes to possibilites, present them with the cultural realities and instill good taste as well as teach safe and solid technique.
You cannot impose attitudes on everyone. Some girls just wanna have fun.

I agree - I suppose what I was trying to express was my frustration at the students who say they want to improve and progress but then moan and become disruptive when you tell them there is NO magic formula it will take effort and hard work. I think that was what you were talking about Khadiya?

I also feel that in belly dance in general there is an atmosphere of forced nicety where critique is looked at as "mean," so dancers with little skill are coddled and fostered and given completely unrealistic visions of their own ability.

Yes and that's why clarity is good. I always struggle with being very honest with my students, though the ones that know me well say my face usually gives away what I'm really thinking! I recognise that is partly my own issue with not being seen as 'mean' and also because my students say I can be 'tough' sometimes especially when preparing for performances. What they really mean by 'tough' is I give very clear expectations. They always thank me afterward because they feel prepared and also recognise that I wasn't being mean just clear and realistic.

I usually take my cue from the student how they approach the dance and what they tell me about how they want to progress. I'm quite happy with the student who says I just want fun, it's the ones who say I want to perform, teach etc etc but when faced with the realities of practise start to moan or don't put the effort in. I have no problem being 'realistic' (call it mean if you like) with them.

I also think indigostars has a point. My current attitude to learning comes from my personal experiences. Dance classess taught me that you didn't learn everything overnight and there was always something higher to aim for, especially where they had really structured grades which you measured yourself against. I love the fact we don't have that in BD but I do think that background helped me to understand the idea of progression and continual learning. Also I was really lucky in that I have very few negative learning experiences throughout my life. Perhaps some of our students who have negative attitudes to learning have had really negative experiences of learning in the past - be that dance classes or academically.

Perhaps what I'm saying is attitudes to learning are not about where you are from but how you've been taught in the past and what you have come to understand personally about learning. Woh that's enough thinking for a Monday afternoon I've made my head hurt!!! Interesting thread though!

Originally Posted by eshe

This thread is some timely. But my problem is a bit backwards. I have a student who has specifically asked for a special class where I just critique her for the whole thing. She always asks me to point out any mistakes.

When I do though, I get an injury report. Last week when I comment that her ascents from and descents to the floor were awkward she told me part of her toe had been cut off and she didn't know how. She always has an excuse as to why she can't do something or she raises her voice that she IS doing what I asked of her.

What really cheesed me off was when I complimented another student on her hip work (she told me she'd been practicing and it SHOWS) the injury plagued girl bragged she "doesn't have time for homework" and "never does it."

'when you've been able to establish a regular practice routine outside of class, and maintain it for a few months, then let's talk about critique again. No point collecting even more information when you don't have time to absorb what I'm giving you in class!"

As for the excuses, that's kinda hard to be tough about when someone's had their flippin' toe cut off! But dealing with chronic excuse-makers is tough, the whole class gets tired of hearing about it. That should be a thread of it's own, I think!

(DISCLAIMER: I am not referring to those who come to class for fun & fitness and are perfectly happy to repeat classes as necessary. Not everyone wants to advance quickly, and that's okay!)

It definitely isn't isolated to the UK, nor is it limited to dance. In my various activities I've been floored by people's expressed desire to take part in the big production, demo, or festival, and then completely drop the ball in practices, rehersals, and performances. At best it makes the group look unprofessional. At worst it is dangerous due to some of the props/weapons/routines that certain groups use.

What I've found is that many people believe that the privilege of performing - for paid performances OR student showcases - comes with paying one's fees. Many people believe class or rehersal time should be the only time they need to learn the dance coreography (or the demo martial arts fight coreo or their lines in the script).

With any group there will be the mix of people who either have the brain structure to learn with speed and ease, those who put in the hard work and long hours, those who work hard during rehersal but put in minimal effort at home, and those who can't be bothered to do much more than muck about in rehersal and hardly look at their notes. It is infuriating, because you often get resentment at all levels - from those who have worked hard and get dragged down by those who won't, and from those who don't practice on their own and are chided when they arrive at dress rehersal with only a shakey knowledge of the routine.

This is one of my bugbears - has been for years, from long before I started dancing. Unfortunately, this "I paid my fees, so I have the right to perform and don't need to work" is almost impossible to escape

As for people unwilling to put in visible effort during class - I don't get it. I wonder if valuing natural aptitude over hard work has made it undesirable to show any kind of effort. Now at some point the dancer has to be able to make it look effortless while inwardly cursing her burning muscles and sore bunions, but that sort of thing usually comes after spending a lot of time sweating, grunting, and grimacing at her reflection in the dance mirrors.

I don't know why Princess Sparkle expects that she should advance from one level to the next just because she turns up to class to do a poorly isolated shimmy and a few half-hearted undulations. I thoroughly respect the teachers and troupe leaders who say "no, you need to repeat Level A at least one more time before moving to Level B" or "you need to have this coreography down solid if you want to perform, and you don't know it well enough yet." Sparkle should certainly be encouraged to work harder, and maybe all she needs is a swift kick in the backside.

Maybe it's also the idea that "Belly dance is easy!" that can make people think they can get away with minimal effort and still achieve maximum results.

In my Coaching Practice we do what is called Motivational Interviewing. This is also used by Psychologists. basically you talk to your potential clients to figure out if they really are open to doing the work which will help them reach their goals. And if the Potential Client does not show the signs of being open, the ethical think to do is to give them a pass. Or the unethical thing to do is take them on for the money, but let them know that if they aren't willing to do the work, you aren't responsible for the results.

how this applies to Belly Dance and just about every other medium, is that if the student is saying, I want to advance, and then aren't doing the work, let them know that you are seeing. That they aren't putting in the effort. How motivated are they to improve?

Tamra-Henna tells about the ME women in her beginning class who complain about not being able to dance as well as T-H. Her response is, I've been doing this exclusively for 15 years.

I have a famous story that someone e-mailed me saying that they wanted to be a professional dancer in a year. that they had little to no training. What would I suggest that they do. I told them to start taking 5 - 10 group classes a week, plus 2 - 4 private lessons. Minimum. That she should start dancing at Haflas, etc when her main teacher felt she was ready. To listen to ME music 24 / 7. Plus study DVD's, etc. And to expect to keep doing so. She did e-mail me back and ask me if there
were any short cuts. My answer was No. I have no idea if she ever followed up or not.

Of course, as this was very early in my dance career, she may have been an established dancer who was trying to make sure I wasn't Princess Glitterati.

{{{HUGS}}}

We present belly dance (here in the Uk at least) as being all inclusive and many teacher have a light-hearted approach to match that of her students.
Frankly I don't think you are going to change them or their students. I know that I am a little too serious for some students and I concentrate on technique rather choreography. When I do a choreo. it tends to be reasonably strightforward so it is accessable to newer and less able students.
I believe that serious students of this dance have to look beyond those all inclusive mixed ability weekly classes to seek out teacher who hold say - monthly classes for those who wish to advance(Kharis does them in Manchester),go to workshops and festivals. Best of all private lessons with quality teacher.
performance wise I would get together with like minded students and form a troupe and get experts to teach you and practise practise practise. We brought an ATS teacher in to teach us moves she'd learnt in the States and a friend and teacher is going to specialist flamenco lessons as she wants to be able to fuse it properly!
But do NOT drop weekly classes.
I am hoping to get back to those with another local teacher whilst teaching myself.
I think carolineT will reinforce what I say being in a performing troupe as we were for the Liverpool festival does not allow for "coasting along". You find strengths and energies you'd forgotten and those bounce off others onto you.

This is very interesting. I can offer a point of view from a student who doesn't have all the confidence in the world. In class, I find myself cutting my movements down, I can and do learn a choreo fast but perhaps don't put the energy into it in class (in front of others). At home is a whole different thing. I go full out practice hard and dance hard going over things again and again until I feel like I got it right.

Why slack off in class? I am scared to death that people will look at me and laugh.."she thinks THAT is dancing, she looks like a moron". I am not saying that anyone has ever said that to me but there is it. I have generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder. I ALWAYS think people are judging me.

The bonus is that BD is actually helping me with this. I love it in class when my instructor gives me a zagareet when I am goofing off. If she thinks it looks good then I know it does. I am not scared of criticism either tho. Knowing that I am doing it wrong is much better than me thinking that I am doing it wrong.

Not all students have the same problem as me but it is possible that they are shy or have a poor self image so they are scared to really put themselves out there in class.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

Not all students have the same problem as me but it is possible that they are shy or have a poor self image so they are scared to really put themselves out there in class.

Shyness or poor self image, however, is usually quite evident. When someone is holding back out of nerves or anxiety or shyness (and I've danced with a couple lovely girls who were dreadfully shy), it comes across not as slacking off but as holding back. It's a completely different kind of energy.

When I think of people slacking off, what comes to mind are those people who come in, interrupt the instructor by talking constantly, almost make an effort to seem bored, are more interested in checking their phones for text messages or carrying on a conversation with their friend than actually paying attention. These individuals are often noisy and can be quite inconsiderate, and frequently draw attention to themselves (like the Bhuzzer above with the student who demands attention but only gives endless excuses and injury stories in return). THAT'S slacking off.

But holding back when your shy? Ahhh, my dear, shrinking violets are often far more luminous than you may think! When dancing with the shy girls, I usually end up wondering "WOW, she can do that when she's practically shaking with nerves - think of what she can do when she's relaxed and not holding back!"

Why slack off in class? I am scared to death that people will look at me and laugh.."she thinks THAT is dancing, she looks like a moron". I am not saying that anyone has ever said that to me but there is it. I have generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder. I ALWAYS think people are judging me.

Hey Linny. This I started this thread on a general basis because I was interested in exploring general cultures of learning attitudes and where they come from. I wasn't thinking on personal terms at all, more in terms of broad trends that I have observed over nearly 7 years of different classes.

Anyway, I feel your pain. I too have social anxiety disorder and so I agree with you that shyness and lack of confidence can impact on people wanting to have a go. For years I was terrified of using my arms when I danced because *it might make people look at me* .w.:

I have now reached what my teacher calls the 'F8&k it!' stage of dancing when my attitude is generally one of 'Oh 'F8&k it, I'll have a go!' but even so, whenever we are working on anything I'll have a continuous internal dialogue which goes 'What am I doing?!; Oh my god what was that?!; I'm sure my posture is terrible, I'm going to get pulled up on it again; this feels wrong; I'm not going to get this right' but I still have a little go.

Shyness or poor self image, however, is usually quite evident. When someone is holding back out of nerves or anxiety or shyness (and I've danced with a couple lovely girls who were dreadfully shy), it comes across not as slacking off but as holding back. It's a completely different kind of energy.

I agree with halftruths' assessment here. The shyster may not want to have a go but is rarely ungracious about it.

I guess what I was originally getting at is the sort of learning culture where the majority of individuals prefer to stand around, arms folded and muttering at the merest hint that there might be something faintly new or challenging to learn and to sniff disapprovingly when maybe 4 or 5 others make an attempt and, amazingly, after making complete tits of themselves, start to 'get it'.

I think carolineT will reinforce what I say being in a performing troupe as we were for the Liverpool festival does not allow for "coasting along". You find strengths and energies you'd forgotten and those bounce off others onto you.

Absolutely, and when you get to be part of a group where there is that level of commitment to learning it's a fantastic experience.

You're right though that the weekly class is the not place where that learning experience normally happens in my experience. There are too many within the class who say they just want fun or say they want to progress but then stand muttering and not putting effort in.

The student who attends workshops with visiting teachers, who goes to more than one teacher regularly (we're lucky you can do that in Merseyside, UK), who watches youtube videos, who buys practice DVD's, who asks me where to get music to to listen to at home, who joins performance troupes, who is willing to come to additional rehearsals - that's the one I know is really serious about progression. You know what, they usually do progress because they put in the effort. But they are not the majority who come to our classes and perhaps that's why the poor attitude prevails because the few follow the majority.

I always remember when I started teaching at a higher level, my teacher pointed out that people slacking off, talking, generally misbehaving *can* actually be a power play. When students misbehave like that it can be a sign that you're losing control of the class, and you have to try and reassert your leadership of the class while also asking yourself why it might be that they are doing it. It's not necessarily down to the teacher's teaching not being up to par, but it may also be that you're missing something about the class dynamic or need to modify your approach. (Easier said than done...)

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I don't think this is merely a UK phenomenon. My experience has been that a lot of students just want instant gratification...the reward without the effort.

I also feel that in belly dance in general there is an atmosphere of forced nicety where critique is looked at as "mean," so dancers with little skill are coddled and fostered and given completely unrealistic visions of their own ability.

Nisaa

This is so true. What they don't realise is that truly great dancers work really hard to get themselves to that level. They don't just go every week to class - they live it. I've had women who have been dancing at the same level for years and years and still don't want to be pushed when their bodies begin to sweat and kick against the repetition of drills and technique. And ask them to improvise and they have terror in their eyes.

Originally Posted by carolinet

The student who attends workshops with visiting teachers, who goes to more than one teacher regularly (we're lucky you can do that in Merseyside, UK), who watches youtube videos, who buys practice DVD's, who asks me where to get music to to listen to at home, who joins performance troupes, who is willing to come to additional rehearsals - that's the one I know is really serious about progression. You know what, they usually do progress because they put in the effort.

The ones serious about improving are the ones who are not afraid to be criticised and who don't take umbrage when told they are not proficient dancers. Who wants to hear that their dancing skills are seriously wanting....and I'm talking about some teachers here too. How some of them even have the balls to set up a class beats me. I'm constantly amazed and astounded at their chutzpah.

The ones serious about improving are the ones who are not afraid to be criticised and who don't take umbrage when told they are not proficient dancers.

That's so true as well. We all continue learning all the time and I'm really suspicious of anyone who thinks they have nothing to improve on. I think a good teacher is someone who's also willing to learn, you don't stop learning just 'cos you've been dancing x number of years.

Feedback is crucial to people who really want to learn, how else do we know how/what to improve/work on. But I often wonder how prepared we are to hear that. I know I had to feel that I had a certain level of competency and confidence before I could ask for feedback and genuinely hear it. I think sometimes students/dancers say they want feedback but haven't thought enough about if they are personally in a place to take it if that person has constructive criticism.

That said I think as teachers we have a responsibility to give feedback in a way which is constructive and non-attacking so students can learn from it. I suppose that's what I was referring to much earlier when I was thinking about negative learning experiences. If a learner has only ever been given negative criticism in the past and not recieved any recognition of achievement then learning can be painful and that's what puts you off ever really trying to learn anything ever again.

And don't get me started about teachers who do not have a grasp of even basic technique that's a whole new thread and one that's probably been done to death in the past!

Feedback is crucial to people who really want to learn, how else do we know how/what to improve/work on. But I often wonder how prepared we are to hear that. I know I had to feel that I had a certain level of competency and confidence before I could ask for feedback and genuinely hear it. I think sometimes students/dancers say they want feedback but haven't thought enough about if they are personally in a place to take it if that person has constructive criticism.

I think that this is an astute assessment. I think that it can really help everyone if we students are honest with ourselves about what constructive criticism entails and whether we are genuinely prepared to have our fragile houses of cards knocked down or our worst fears confirmed. For me personally, this has been one of the very hardest parts of being a student but it has been worthwhile because it really helps if a teacher can give you feedback that clarifies exactly what is going wrong and if they can advise you as to what the priorities are for you in terms of taking things further.

As long as you are trying and a teacher acknowledges that you are at least doing that, then criticism is the harsh (and often very harsh) reality of improvement.

Originally Posted by halftruths

What I've found is that many people believe that the privilege of performing - for paid performances OR student showcases - comes with paying one's fees. Many people believe class or rehersal time should be the only time they need to learn the dance coreography (or the demo martial arts fight coreo or their lines in the script).

Ain't THAT the truth!

I have a group of self-professed "serious" students that I'm working with right now. They want to perform, but right now they need a lot of extra-curricular practice before I think THEY would be happy watching their performances. I've asked them each to write out what their level of commitment is, and how many hours a week outside of class they can devote to practice and drilling. "Hours!!??" they shrieked -- "We have to practice for HOURS??"

Maybe they figure polish and precision just magically appear, I don't know.

I have told them all that they needed to create a practice schedule and a list of things to practice in that time. The ones who have DONE this are showing remarkable progress.

It used to really cheese me off that I would spend several hours writing out drills, making lists of things to practice, practice combinations, etc -- and they never seemed to even LOOK at it. I would absolutely KILL for a teacher who would work with me on such a personal level every week, you know! I love them all, but sometimes I want to shake them a bit.

What NOBODY wants to hear is that it just takes time. I tell them to buy a metronome. Somebody told me years ago to buy a metronome if I wanted to speed up my 3/4 shimmy or whatever, and to practice slowly and just keep "kicking it up a notch" as you progress. That WORKS! They don't believe me. They want a shortcut -- I say the metronome IS the shortcut. It's much faster than waiting for a miracle.

I don't agree with some philosophies that performing is a right. Performing is -- or should be -- the reward for hard work and study. They don't hand you a degree just because you show up for class. Every now and then you DO have to write a paper or study something.

Originally Posted by aziyade

What NOBODY wants to hear is that it just takes time. I tell them to buy a metronome. Somebody told me years ago to buy a metronome if I wanted to speed up my 3/4 shimmy or whatever, and to practice slowly and just keep "kicking it up a notch" as you progress. That WORKS! They don't believe me. They want a shortcut -- I say the metronome IS the shortcut. It's much faster than waiting for a miracle.

I feel I most quote the wonderful Jim Boz on this. "There are only three things standing between the dancers you are and the dancer you want to be - time, practice and instruction."

HAHAHAHA! I love that !!! I think I'll make a poster of it!