Thread: spinoff...chest lifts & drops...

So on the drum solo dos & don'ts, someone mentioned chest lifts looking over-the-top on well-endowed ladies. How about less-endowed ladies? I have to pop my chest halfway to the ceiling for anyone to even tell I've done anything!!

My real question here, is... When you do your chest lifts, do you primarily engage the muscles between your shoulder blades, or your upper abs, or both pretty much evenly? I have a difficult time going from a pelvic lock to a chest lift because I use my upper abs so much to lift my chest...and it seems my chest is already somewhat lifted. So in order to get a really strong lift, I almost have to drop my chest FIRST, then lift. I can do it, but it doesn't look nearly as sharp and clean as I would like, and as it should look.

I know that was confusing, but can anybody figure out if I'm doing something wrong?

For me this is primarily a sharp contraction of my mid-back muscles, though it also involves connected muscles on the sides and a lift in the muscles over the lower-most ribs in front. Sorry I skipped anatomy class and don't know the names of any of these muscles. But anyway, it's like a whole band of muscles encircling the ribcage is involved, but it definitely emanates from the back and that's where the strongest contraction is. I wouldn't say this is between my shoulder blades. More like just below them. And really not an abdominal move.

I do hope I'm not one of those well-endowed ladies who's not sposed to do this, cuz I'm doin it.
Rosette

Originally Posted by Rosette

But anyway, it's like a whole band of muscles encircling the ribcage is involved, but it definitely emanates from the back and that's where the strongest contraction is. I wouldn't say this is between my shoulder blades. More like just below them.

This is somewhat similar to how I do it (and I'm extremely small busted), except it's mostly abdominals with help from the back muscles you described above.

for me, I feel it mostly coming from the upper back with just a little help from the other muscles rosette described - I would not say I'm using much abdominals for that move ... I'm rather small chested, but have no problem with getting good range of motion, etc w/ the chest lift ... I do have a rather large ribcage, though, so maybe that helps w/ visibility where I'm lacking in breasts

Hmmm, I think I power my chest lifts/drops almost entirely from my diaphragm area - the abdominal muscles front and centre under the ribcage. I especially use these to stop the drop, so it's a sharp, controlled drop rather than a droop!

Oh, good...so it sounds like there's more than one way to lift a bust... or drop it! Okay, so now i can stop fretting & just drill the pelvic lock/chest lift combo until I can't move any more, and that will clean it up... thanks ladies!! Maybe it's more visible than I think, you know, it's hard to gauge on your own body.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Hmmm, I think I power my chest lifts/drops almost entirely from my diaphragm area - the abdominal muscles front and centre under the ribcage. I especially use these to stop the drop, so it's a sharp, controlled drop rather than a droop!

Me too. It gives it a very sharp/crisp look.

When I do chest lifts I engage my diaphram area. If someone is using back muscles they will be pushing their chest OUT instead of UP.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Me too. It gives it a very sharp/crisp look.

When I do chest lifts I engage my diaphram area. If someone is using back muscles they will be pushing their chest OUT instead of UP.

I agree, and I think it tends to make the shoulders go back as the chest goes up/out. When I to a chest lift, I try to isolate it from my shoulders as completely as possible.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

So on the drum solo dos & don'ts, someone mentioned chest lifts looking over-the-top on well-endowed ladies. How about less-endowed ladies? I have to pop my chest halfway to the ceiling for anyone to even tell I've done anything!!

Snort! Try being a male. ..l;, Gotta make those chest movements SHARP and BIG.

I drive it mostly from the diaphragm and upper abs/lower chest muscles - or so it seems to me.

Originally Posted by zorba

Snort! Try being a male. ..l;, Gotta make those chest movements SHARP and BIG.

I drive it mostly from the diaphragm and upper abs/lower chest muscles - or so it seems to me.

..l;,..l;,..g.: Glad you chimed in there Zorba!! Never thought about that...but gosh, Tito RULES and he's a man!!!! And everything he does is awesome (in my opinion, anyway)...

I drive my lifts with my back mostly with a little help from the diaphram and my drops from my diaphram. I guess I always feel like my abs are engaged so maybe I just don't feel it as much from the front.

Originally Posted by Rosette

I do hope I'm not one of those well-endowed ladies who's not sposed to do this, cuz I'm doin it.
Rosette

DD and lifting and dropping. Love it and I think my girls only enhance the movement! You keep doin it babe.

No body said you are not supposed to do them, just be aware of what they look like. In on of my vids, my breasts are under my chin and when I am doing lifts, drops and circles, it looks a little obscene IMO!

{{{HUGS}}}

I shy away from more than two lifts, circles or slides b/c I'm top heavy. I don't like the look of boobs in my nostrils as I dance.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Hmmm, I think I power my chest lifts/drops almost entirely from my diaphragm area - the abdominal muscles front and centre under the ribcage. I especially use these to stop the drop, so it's a sharp, controlled drop rather than a droop!

Yep, this is what I do. I tell my students they will never have to do crunches again if they do their chest lifts every day!

[QUOTE=Sonja2;253961] So in order to get a really strong lift, I almost have to drop my chest FIRST, then lift. I can do it, but it doesn't look nearly as sharp and clean as I would like, and as it should look. QUOTE]

I have had this problem. (am med. busted)But my lifts are barely perceptible. Someone said earlier not to lift the chest out but up. I fear I may be lifting it out. I too want to achieve a crisp drop, but what do you mean by using the muscles in the diaphram? And if your ribcacage is already lifted, how do you drop it without looking like your slumping?

Are there ways to strengthen or even become aware of your diaphram/upper abs? I think if I can do this I can also learn belly rolls, the bane of my existence..l;,

I teach my students to lift engaging the upper abdominals/diaphram. By doing this they can create sharp accents when dropping in stages. It usually takes them a little while to get it right but by the time the session has finished they are lifting and dropping with no problem. Then I start throwing in variations...just to keep them working hard...lol ;o)

Hmmm, maybe this will help.

1. Sit at your kitchen chair or whatever is comfortable. Don't rest your back.

2. Suck your belly into your spine but continue breathing normally.

3. Let out your belly slowly and than quickly contract it. It will cause your chest to lift a small amount when you suck your belly into your spine.

4. It is important to remember to breath while doing this BUT DON'T allow your breathing to lift your chest.

So many beginner girls use breathing and shoulders to lift their chests.

I sure hope that wasn't to confusing.

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

[I have had this problem. (am med. busted)But my lifts are barely perceptible. Someone said earlier not to lift the chest out but up. I fear I may be lifting it out. I too want to achieve a crisp drop, but what do you mean by using the muscles in the diaphram? And if your ribcacage is already lifted, how do you drop it without looking like your slumping?

Are there ways to strengthen or even become aware of your diaphram/upper abs? I think if I can do this I can also learn belly rolls, the bane of my existence..l;,

You wouldn't drop it all the way down but back to your neutral lifted postition. So if you take a nice deep breath in, note where your chest/ribcage are and exhale but keep your ribs/chest where they are. They should not be under your chin. You can lift from that position and when you drop, stop where you started not all the way down. I have no idea if that made any sense.

I guess when I take a deep breath in, my ribcage expands out to the sides not up....am I doomed?

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Are there ways to strengthen or even become aware of your diaphram/upper abs? I think if I can do this I can also learn belly rolls, the bane of my existence..l;,

The teacher I learned chest movements from had us first do an exercise to "become aware" of our diaphram. Sit or stand with good posture and press your finger tips about an inch below your sternum into your center. Now try to push your fingertips back out using your diaphram. I found it helpful at first to hold my breath and try to push a breath out. Once you have found it you can get it very crisp and kinda pop.

This is not the same exact motion you use for lifts and drops, but it may help you find the right muscles:)

Hope it helps!
Meredith

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

I guess when I take a deep breath in, my ribcage expands out to the sides not up....am I doomed?

A visulaization that I use with my students is to picture hooks on wires coming from the ceiling, and the hooks are attached to the tops of your bra cups. As you lift (in your case, by taking a deep breath in), picture the wires being cranked up into the ceiling, and the attached hooks pulling upwards as well.

This doesn't really help with using the abdominals, but I usually have student discover the upwards range of motion first, and then talk about how to move it up there properly one they know where they're going.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

My real question here, is... When you do your chest lifts, do you primarily engage the muscles between your shoulder blades, or your upper abs, or both pretty much evenly? I have a difficult time going from a pelvic lock to a chest lift because I use my upper abs so much to lift my chest...and it seems my chest is already somewhat lifted. So in order to get a really strong lift, I almost have to drop my chest FIRST, then lift. I can do it, but it doesn't look nearly as sharp and clean as I would like, and as it should look.

I know that was confusing, but can anybody figure out if I'm doing something wrong?

An important thing to remember when trying to figure out which muscle is driving what move is that muscles cannot push - they can only pull (there are very few exceptions to this rule, the tongue being the most notable). Essentially, all muscular power is derived from the contraction of the muscle tissues. Any lengthening of muscle tissue is done by relaxing the muscle. You can put the breaks on a move (achieving a lock) by suddenly engaging the non-contracting muscles, but you cannot power the move by doing so.

If you look at the direction in which your chest is moving in a chest lift (upwards), you can immediately see that your abs are actually lengthening in this movement, and your back muscles around the shoulder bladess and the upper part of your back arch are what are contracting. If you are using your upper abdominals to "push" your chest lift, what you may actually be doing is slowing the speed and/or range of your lift by engaging your abs when you should be relaxing them. I'd imagine this would require you to put in much more effort when executing a chest lift!

Concentrate on letting your upper abdominals relax when drilling chest lifts. If you are trying to go for a sharp lock at the very top of the lift, you can engage your uppermost abs slightly to help the sharpness of the movement. Otherwise, focus on developing your back muscles running along the spine and between the shoulder blades to give a nice, long lift.

Conversely, your chest drops will be controlled by your abdominal muscles (they are the muscles that will be shortening, so they're the ones that do the work).

Originally Posted by Sonja2

So on the drum solo dos & don'ts, someone mentioned chest lifts looking over-the-top on well-endowed ladies.

Sonja??? Would you care to clarify statement to your DD dance pal whose computer is now fixed so she can read your posts again? *crosses arms & taps foot* MmmmHmmm...

Originally Posted by songofincense

Sonja??? Would you care to clarify statement to your DD dance pal whose computer is now fixed so she can read your posts again? *crosses arms & taps foot* MmmmHmmm...

actually, that was me. I am a DD and I have noticed on my vids that there are times where I am costumed in the traditional lifted high under the chin, that a chest pop looks like it could put an eye out. chest circles can look a little like balloons on a surf board or Christmas tree decorations. If you do too many of them, it can begin to look a little comedic.

One solution is to do lifts, drops and circles to the side. Then they are less in your face, and more subtle. Another is to dance in a more Egyptian style, which is more about the lower torso, and finally, you can make the lifts, etc, more subtle, or fewer in number, thereby down playing the effect.

But, that is my opinion and something each dancer / choreographer needs to decide foor themselves.

Actually, muscles CAN push. Muscles can engage concentrically (by shortening) or eccentrically (by lengthening) or isometrically (by engaging/tightening but without movement).

My lifts are powered by several complimentary sets of muscles.

First, I lift the lower ribs by lengthening the upper fibers of my rectus abdominus (the long ribbon of ab muscle that attaches the ribcage to the pelvis in front) which also 'catch' the ribs strongly at the bottom of a drop.

Second, I expand my intracostal muscles, which are the small muscles *between* the ribs. Hold one hand at the top ribs, by your collarbones, and the other at the bottom of the ribs and take a slow deep breath while consciously trying to make the ribcage 'taller' in front. Can you feel how the front of your ribcage opens like an accordion? That's because of the eccentric lengthening of the intractostal muscles. Now take a deep breath in, expanding the ribs, and see if you can keep the ribs expanded while you exhale. With practice, you'll be able to open and close the front ribs without using the breath.

So, at the front of my body I'm lifting the lower ribs by lengthening my upper abs and simultaneously expanding my ribcage vertically with the intracostal muscles. Both of those actions happen by *lengthening* the muscle.

I can lift and lower my ribcage with almost complete relaxation at the back of the body BUT if I allow the muscle across my midback (between the shoulderblades) to contract in support of the movement, I can get more power into the lift. I can also get a solid *lock* at the top of the movement by adding in a little action from some chest muscles, but that would probably only be confusing here!

In dance posture, the ribcage is lifted up out of the belly and slightly forward, ribs closed. When I lift my ribcage, I'm lifting it higher and opening the ribs. During a drop, I'm only returning to my dance posture.

There should be NO 'backbendy' action in a ribcage lift! That's my pet peeve, seeing enthusiastic dancers snapping their spines around. *shudder*

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Actually, muscles CAN push. Muscles can engage concentrically (by shortening) or eccentrically (by lengthening) or isometrically (by engaging/tightening but without movement).

(sticks out neck) While those three muscle types of muscle activity do occur, eccentric muscle motion isn't created by the muscle tissue pushing. Eccentric muscle movement is a contraction of the muscles used to "smooth out" movement by causing the movement to decelerate - the muscle lengthens slowly by resisting (pulling) against a force that is greater then the force generated by the muscle, or slows a movement without external force by relaxing the contraction. It's still a contraction of the muscle tissue - the lengthening is a result of the opposing force acting on the muscle or of a controlled relaxation of the muscle tissue, not of any pushing of the muscle tissue itself.

A much better explanation than I can provide is here: Muscle Physiology - Types of Contractions

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

actually, that was me. I am a DD and I have noticed on my vids that there are times where I am costumed in the traditional lifted high under the chin, that a chest pop looks like it could put an eye out. chest circles can look a little like balloons on a surf board or Christmas tree decorations. If you do too many of them, it can begin to look a little comedic.

One solution is to do lifts, drops and circles to the side. Then they are less in your face, and more subtle. Another is to dance in a more Egyptian style, which is more about the lower torso, and finally, you can make the lifts, etc, more subtle, or fewer in number, thereby down playing the effect.

But, that is my opinion and something each dancer / choreographer needs to decide foor themselves.

I wasn't really taking offense Tahira... I was just bustin' Sonja's chops cuz we're friends & we often joke about the differences in our size/proportions... it was just tit for tat (no, I absolutely could not resist the pun)
Blessings,
Rach~

Originally Posted by songofincense

it was just tit for tat (no, I absolutely could not resist the pun)
~

Oh you didn't

Originally Posted by halftruths

(sticks out neck) While those three muscle types of muscle activity do occur, eccentric muscle motion isn't created by the muscle tissue pushing. Eccentric muscle movement is a contraction of the muscles used to "smooth out" movement by causing the movement to decelerate - the muscle lengthens slowly by resisting (pulling) against a force that is greater then the force generated by the muscle, or slows a movement without external force by relaxing the contraction. It's still a contraction of the muscle tissue - the lengthening is a result of the opposing force acting on the muscle or of a controlled relaxation of the muscle tissue, not of any pushing of the muscle tissue itself.

A much better explanation than I can provide is here: Muscle Physiology - Types of Contractions

Ahhhhh...interesting. Not how it was originally presented to me, but that portion of my anatomy training came during yoga teacher training from an instructor with a knack for getting things *almost* right.

Tell me which muscles I'm using to spread the front ribs, then, because it sure *feels* like my intracostals are extending!