Thread: Dancer holding themselves out as professionals.

Hello all,
Been awhile since I have been here, year from hell pretty much.Lost my Mom in January. Married off my oldest daughter in August. Sorrow and joy in the same year ...whew...good to be back.

Anyway..I would like to hear some opinions on what you all think about students who have danced less than one year, had very very poor technique, refused to listen to instruction and then strike out on their own and call themselves professional belly dancers? I know this one has been hashed to death on here I'm sure.,s:: Someone brought this to my attention recently about a former student. I am very disturbed to see this person holding themselves out as such. She purchased wings and swords and canes etc etc etc and is out making a spectacle of herself, pretty much..... too each his own I guess, however I am worried she is telling people she learned from my partner and I. This does not reflect well. We would never turn a student lose in less than a year to go pro.
I read a thread on here she wrote about her audiences being stoic. Stunned is perhaps a better term I am thinking. I am sorry. Maybe you could call this a 32 week wonder instead of an eight week wonder. ???? It just ticks me ..cr.: because we have MANY students how work very hard to hone this craft and take the time to learn properly. We let them dance all the time in public because we make sure as instructors they know what they are doing. AGAHHHHHHHHH...c:: Just frustration on my part I guess. Any thoughts on the subject? thanks Susu

I feel your pain. It's not like you can make a disclaimer...well I guess you can but it won't really fix things. I get so frustrated with this cause I've been dancing for 6 years. I was offered a gig after 3 months of dancing but I turned it down cause I wasn't ready for that. I'm just now getting into performing cause I believe that if you want to do something, you need to do it well. And yet, here are these girls who can barely shimmy let alone dance who are getting gigs at restaurants. I know they want to make money...but wouldn't they rather want to be good at it first? I just don't get it. Don't people have any pride or respect for anything anymore?

Really brings down the dance in general is the real problem! The GP sees this and thinks that it isn't worth seeing!
I see this in my area as well! I know some ladies are very excited about belly dance and want to dance but what ever happened to passionate hobbyists? Dance at haflas and student show cases. Heck here everyone and her sister has to start their own troupe after a short stay in a level 2 class.
I was thinking about this and came to the conclusion that these women go from 0 dance skills to maybe a 2, the problem is they don't know the scale goes to 100 or more! Gettting basic skills doesn't make one a pro in this dance form or any other. Just think of taking lessons for a musical instrument for a year and going pro? It's laughable! How does it happen with belly dance?
OK this was not any help at all, just more venting! Oh well I feel better, for now, until I see yet another dancer, dancing for free, with skills better suited to a student show case!
I'll stop now because i could go on and on......

I thought this was an excellent recent thread on the subject:

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/business-b...r-request.html

I think many beginners are unable to recognise their own level of skill. Hell at the end of my second year, I know that I dance better than last year, but my perception says that I am a mere beginner and I rate my skills lower than I did last year. I feel that I have further to go than I thought this time last year. I have spent more time looking online at dancing, working with dvds and am better able to appreciate the difference between what my body is actually doing and attempting to do.

I look around me and there are always so many other people that don't seem to be tryingthat I could have got a really inflated sense of my self worth if I hadn't decided to aim high.

Originally Posted by jencUK

I think many beginners are unable to recognise their own level of skill. Hell at the end of my second year, I know that I dance better than last year, but my perception says that I am a mere beginner and I rate my skills lower than I did last year. I feel that I have further to go than I thought this time last year. I have spent more time looking online at dancing, working with dvds and am better able to appreciate the difference between what my body is actually doing and attempting to do.

I look around me and there are always so many other people that don't seem to be tryingthat I could have got a really inflated sense of my self worth if I hadn't decided to aim high.

I see people who have been dancing for many years and are medicore to say the least but (probably) because friends and family ( who know diddly-squat of course) tell them how wonderful they are. They are arrogant enough to feel they can be an entertainng platform and be worthy of being paid .


We are talking another bhuzzer here who will recognize no doubt you are writing about her and her response will be to say "you don't own me"!
All you can do if folks say "Ah I saw one of your students performing the other night!" is smile ruefully and meaningfully and if pressed say" Well she is very keen..we hope she is continuing her education in the dance".
If someone truly is a below par entertainer, the work will dry up.

Wish had fair words of wisdom to add, but alas not.

However, I have very recently had exctly this problem with a [now ex-] student, made a little worse for me by the fact she was still dancing with myself/my troupe WHILST running around behind us making a spectacle out of us all, and admit I worry too about the implications of her naming me as her trainer- because I don't want to be associated with dancing like that, thanks.

What someone said abut the musical instruments is so right- you wouldn't get a 1yr ballet student claiming she is pro, why do we suffer from this phenomenan so much? Lack of proper education of the GP, I suppose :( Intriguing question...

Anyway, rather pointless post, other then to say I hear you, and sympathise. Hope all else is going well for you !

Originally Posted by faaria

Really brings down the dance in general is the real problem! The GP sees this and thinks that it isn't worth seeing!
I see this in my area as well! I know some ladies are very excited about belly dance and want to dance but what ever happened to passionate hobbyists? Dance at haflas and student show cases. Heck here everyone and her sister has to start their own troupe after a short stay in a level 2 class.
I was thinking about this and came to the conclusion that these women go from 0 dance skills to maybe a 2, the problem is they don't know the scale goes to 100 or more! Gettting basic skills doesn't make one a pro in this dance form or any other. Just think of taking lessons for a musical instrument for a year and going pro? It's laughable! How does it happen with belly dance?
OK this was not any help at all, just more venting! Oh well I feel better, for now, until I see yet another dancer, dancing for free, with skills better suited to a student show case!
I'll stop now because i could go on and on......

Here, too. Same thing. I love the ladies that are dancing, even if they are beginners and I so want them to enjoy it and to be able to perform in a safe, fun environment... but I don't want them to exhibit that as professional dancing. And yes, they dance free, and unfortunately that's what the GP sees most often, so will they pay to see a professional? Not likely. At least not in a smaller town, with the struggling economy. It makes me want to throw in the towel. Really. Except then I hear some music...and see Tito on a video....and see another Bella on the swapmeet...and I know I'm sunk :-)

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything we really can do as a community other than continue to do our best to educate the GP and create a better image than the not-so-porfessional "pros."

For example, we have a woman in my community who took maybe 3-6 months of lessons and a small handful of workshops and yet if you google belly dance in my town, her website pops up claiming she's had a lifetime of dance experience when in reality, despite her claims, she's really never even taken a year of lessons. She's kicked all the "real" dancers out of the restaurants by replacing them with "tips only" beginners, convinced her students that she "owns" them and they'd betray her by even showing up to a community dance event (she's quite the skilled emotional vampire) and has driven class prices down to ridiculously low levels. To top it all off, one of my troupe members who teaches actually had one of this woman's old students show up to her class and tell her that she needed to find a new teacher since she got injured in the other class... apparently pelvic thrusts that'll throw out your back are part of the standard horizontal figure 8...

I know that was a huge vent, but I guess the point of it all was to say that there's really not much you can do. It makes you look bad if you start talking poorly about them in public and making a big deal about not being associated with them, and yet it's infuriating to see how bad of an image they create and how hard they make it for us to legitimize dance as an accepted form of "art/entertainment" by the GP.

Originally Posted by miriamgamal

(she's quite the skilled emotional vampire)

I'm reading a book about this right now. It's called "why is it always about YOU!" Worth reading, if you have an emotional vampire in your life.

Susu, I feel your pain, as I have faced this problem several times. It hurts us to see our art form abused, to see our GP turned off before they ever even see the good stuff.

And I often wonder what could be done about it. It seems as though this doesn't happen so much in other performing arts. A ballet dancer with insufficient training and natural ability couldn't possibly get anywhere striking out on her own. A musician or band that sucked wouldn't get any repeat bookings or recommendations.

One thing that is different about belly dance training, and ballet or musical training, is that in the case if the latter two, students are generally given detailed and critical evaluations of where they are and how they are doing, and what their prospects are for the future. There is a set curriculum, and students progress through it based on skill achievements. Moreover, they can only achieve the benchmark skills by practicing outside of class. Advanced classes and performing groups require auditions. No student of music or ballet can show up once per week to one class, and after a year, delude themselves into thinking they are professionals.

Belly dance teachers and schools, on the other hand, don't generally do this. If students are lucky, their teachers give some minimum level of individualized correction so they make minimum forward progress and don't hurt themselves. Most of us don't/can't separate hobbyists from those wanting to become "pros" into separate classes. In my small town, we can barely maintain two absolute beginning-level classes and one mixed-level "continuing" class which is mostly still in what I consider "beginning" level in the grand scheme of things.

It is difficult to give students an accurate vision of what becoming a professional entails. I have written articles about this but really, I see the need to go further.

I would love to be able to meet individually with each of my students for 15 mins or so at the beginning and end of each 6 week session, and give verbal and written evaluations to each on their progress and what they need to work on next. I would like to be able to video tape students doing movements or choreography, and send them home to study themselves on DVD.

Sacramento is not only the capitol of California, it is the capitol of bad "professional" belly dancing. It's even worse when teachers promote this sort of situation--selling out the young and pretty girls in bad costumes to parties and restaurants for almost nothing.

I could rant for hours on this topic and I think it is one of the main reason belly dance has been lost for me. There is no respect for it as an art form--don't get me wrong, I love fun, peppy improv that isn't all diva-tude serious. I am talking about the fact that nobody in this town knows good dancing because they see bad Overly Dramatic newbies who think they know all there is to know.

Blood. Boiling. Now.

What can you do aside from hope that clients will learn the difference between a well-studied dancer and a newbie?

Not much, I fear.

There are certain personalities of students who will have deluded ideas about their level of achievement, and there's probably not much teachers can do to give such personality types a realistic picture of their skill level. And it doesn't help when the friends and families of such students praise them and tell them they should be professionals.

However...

I think there are some students whose enthusiasm and love for this dance can be guided into channels that are a better fit with their skill level. Things I recommend:

• Don't call your classes "beginning", "intermediate", and "advanced". Instead, call them "level 1", "level 2", "level 3", etc.
• Set the expectation that you don't just run through a level once and then move on to the next class. Ie, I set the expectation with my students that I expect them to repeat level 1 at least once before moving on to level 2. I teach a choreogrpahy in my level 1 class, and I have 4 different such choreographies, so some students CHOOSE to stay in my level 1 class for a year in order to learn all four choreos.
• Some teachers will shriek to anyone who listens, "Belly dance is so eeeeeeeeeasy! Come to my class and try it!" And then they wonder why people think they have mastered an eeeeeeeeeasy skill in 8 lessons. I always say, "The beginning belly dance moves are easy enough that you can feel a sense of accomplishment pretty quickly. But like any other art form, if you aspire to a professional career in it, it takes years to perfect the craft."
• Some teachers focus only on really elementary stuff in their level 1 classes, such as hip circles, figure 8's, etc. Students who experience this really basic set of moves start to think that's all there is. One thing I do to "manage" this is to bring more "academic" knowledge into level 1. For example, while everyone is drilling figure 8's to Bir Demet Yasemen, I talk about the fact that it's a traditional Turkish folk song, and I tell them what the lyrics are about. The next week, I tell them again when I use the song again. I look for opportunities throughout those first 7 weeks to mention belly dance's position as a social dance done at weddings by both men and women, etc. I do NOT stop class and have everyone stand around while I lecture, though. Anyway, by incorporating this type of info into class, I set the expectation that there is more to knowing this dance than knowing how to do a hip circle and a shimmy.
• Have a video night where you show videos of top-quality dancers. As you watch the videos, point stuff out to the students. For example, as you watch Fifi Abdo point out, "Okay, see how she is doing a figure 8, but she's also shimmying at the same time, and now she's rolling her abs? That's called layering."
• Cultivate appropriate-to-their-level performance opportunities for students, and require appropriate amounts of rehearsing.

It took me so long to strike out. And believe me family and friends suggested I teach from my first year taking classes. I was asked to join my teacher's company after about 3 years and then my friends mentioned it even more. But I just felt so much love and respect for the dance that I wanted to be an expert before i taught. now i think i may never be an expert but i did start teaching 6 years after starting. I began by covering other's classes when they had to miss. I got more comfortable and got some of my own classes. I started to go to local haflas alone around this time because the dance company didn't really participate in them. that gave me solo experience. I had also started attending more workshops and watching more videos and only after all of that did I start to do paid solos. I call myself a professional now but I really still feel intermediate. there are so many things i'm still working on in my dance. I can't imagine how people are deluded enough to just think they are pros right away.

I feel your pain. I recently had a student who is *no where near ready* tell me she is teaching her own class. Seriously - this student has been with me for a while, but she is one of those who is off in her own little world during class, can't find the rythym in the music, doesn't listen to my corrections, etc. So not ready to teach. I told her I thought she needed to learn more, but alas...

She's been teaching for a few months now and just told me that her students have already performed. It was a charity event show, for no pay. But seriously - these students are performing after only 2 months of classes with a teacher who really shoudn't be teaching herself.

It's nauseating.

And to respond to the comparisons with ballet and music....the difference is that the GP is very much exposed to good ballet dancing, and to good music. Even if you've never taken a ballet class in your life, you've seen enough of it to know when a "ballerina" sucks. And if you can't play a musical instrument, you hear enough music to know what is awful. But most of the GP has never even *seen* a real, live bellydancer! I know many of my students come to my classes and I am the first real bellydancer they've ever seen. So, how is the GP to know what is good and what is bad?? They don't, which is what makes it so easy for the Suzy Nippletassels of the world to sneak in the pro-circuit.

what lizajuk said about enabling friends/family is likely a factor.....i've seen/worked with some who lack not only necessary skills, but also lack an accurate self assessment.....they go from teacher to teacher, progressing little, yet still build troupes and take pay......

some (not all) dancers who want to perform take on a 'she's holding me back' approach when a teacher tells them they're not ready, thankfully, MOST of them take it to heart, maybe with disappointment, but DO work on their skill set until they ARE ready.....and excel when they do....some of my students are progressing well, and i advise them to work with other teachers in addition, and take my assessment to heart....some have amazing potential too!

unfortunately, for some of the worst offenders, i think, is a combo of self esteem issues (needing affirmation thru paid gigs, adulation, 'you're so good', 'can you teach me?', how many gigs they can line up.....etc), lack of objective friends/co-dancers who can accurately assess, and in EXTREME cases, narcissism..........they need to be the center of attention, admired by men, make money quick, what have you.....we can't stop them cuz people are paying them....they're out there and most will respond with contempt and 'you're just jealous'...most of them also stop taking instruction.....eventually, the novelty wears off and they burn-out

all we can do is live by example, but continuing our education, honing our skills, going outside our box, demonstrating poise and professionalism, and sticking to our guns regarding ethics and rates.

Maybe this is why people are going with teaching certificates so they have control over who uses their name?

Unfortunately, some students leave very good teachers to take lessons from teachers who are not well prepared because those people will often give them more performance opportunities, whereas the teachers who set very strict boundaries regarding performance-readiness are considered "mean"...at least I've seen that happen here.

The bottom line is, you can never control other people, so the best course of action is just to be the best you can be, and represent the dance the best way you can. Eventually people who truly care about the dance as an art form will learn there is a difference, and will see it in the performances they attend.

oh, was typing before i saw sedonia's post regarding dvd review.....that is SUCH a great tool! not only for us to assess ourselves and pick our own performances apart to improve, but also as a teaching tool for dancers who learn visually........i'm pretty bad with working from notes, so video is a great tool for me, and a strong reminder of where i need work, and where i excell.............

all we can do is live by example, but continuing our education, honing our skills, going outside our box, demonstrating poise and professionalism, and sticking to our guns regarding ethics and rates.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and thanks for your thoughts on this everyone.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Unfortunately, some students leave very good teachers to take lessons from teachers who are not well prepared because those people will often give them more performance opportunities, whereas the teachers who set very strict boundaries regarding performance-readiness are considered "mean"...at least I've seen that happen here.

Ditto.

Other times the teachers are otherwise excellent and experienced, but push the performing aspect 'waaaayyyyyy to soon.

Deborah

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Unfortunately, some students leave very good teachers to take lessons from teachers who are not well prepared because those people will often give them more performance opportunities, whereas the teachers who set very strict boundaries regarding performance-readiness are considered "mean"...at least I've seen that happen here.

Yep. Happens here ALL the time.

Whoa! Deborah, talk about great minds! (Thinking alike, that is!)

We don't push anyone to perform. It is at their comfort level. We also would not let them embarass themselves publicly if they were not ready to perform. The point here is those who are NOT ready to perform at any level especially PRO SOLO and go out on their delusional way reeking havoc and disrepecting this art form by making a mockery of it. That is my beef. I don't think that is being mean

Originally Posted by susuabdo

We don't push anyone to perform. It is at their comfort level. We also would not let them embarass themselves publicly if they were not ready to perform. The point here is those who are NOT ready to perform at any level especially PRO SOLO and go out on their delusional way reeking havoc and disrepecting this art form by making a mockery of it. That is my beef. I don't think that is being mean

I don't think you're being mean. I am in total agreement with you. This problem of incompetent "pros" is epidemic in my community so I totally sympathize with you.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

And to respond to the comparisons with ballet and music....the difference is that the GP is very much exposed to good ballet dancing, and to good music. Even if you've never taken a ballet class in your life, you've seen enough of it to know when a "ballerina" sucks. And if you can't play a musical instrument, you hear enough music to know what is awful. But most of the GP has never even *seen* a real, live bellydancer! I know many of my students come to my classes and I am the first real bellydancer they've ever seen. So, how is the GP to know what is good and what is bad?? They don't, which is what makes it so easy for the Suzy Nippletassels of the world to sneak in the pro-circuit.

WORD

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I was asked to join my teacher's company after about 3 years and then my friends mentioned it even more. But I just felt so much love and respect for the dance that I wanted to be an expert before i taught.

This is a very interesting topic for me because I am in exactly this spot right now.

I'm in that "in between" stage, where I've spent two years studying intensively (more than one class a week, every workshop I can manage, rehearsing and drilling when I'm not in class, studying videos, etc...) and working on my performance skills. I've recently been invited to perform at a wedding with my academy director and she has discussed subbing for her in the coming weeks.

I've received some genuinely positive feedback from dancers I respect and admire over the summer and I've made the decision to push my dance to the professional level.

My very good friend asked me to do a "diva party" for her stagette last month and I did, trying my hand for the first time. It was more of a "dip my toes in" than a "big splash" into the professional field. They asked me when I'd start teaching classes, so they could join. A couple girls even contacted me later, asking for privates. (!)

But I definitely don't feel like I'm qualified to teach, which I've told them. I also know I would have to charge the going rate around here for private lessons and I really feel they'd get their money's worth from my instructor (or a handful of others in town), not from me. And as far as performance, I don't really feel ready to compete with most of the professional dancers in town for jobs.

I just feel I need more. More knowledge. More practice. More experience. More skill.

Sure, the GP might think I'm an excellent dancer. But at best, I'm adequate. And like rakgirl, I feel like I need to be an expert before I start teaching.

And to be truthful, I think I need a bit more confidence. Definitely more public performances under my hip belt before I can definitively say, "This is how it's done!"

I like Shira's notion about imparting the dedication and time it takes to get to that level at the beginning stages, to hopefully ensure the beginners are aware of how far they can go and what it takes to get there. I absolutely cannot fathom how baby bellies see themselves ready to teach or perform professionally after eight classes!

[continued]

But then again, this weekend I overheard a junior troupe member ask my director (incredulously) why one couldn't perform in a restaurant wearing the equivalent of a choli and a skirt. Our troupe director had us come over in makeup and hair to take headshots for the website. She asked us to bring our troupe costumes (simple, affordable velvet tops and skirts - fine for haflas) and if we wanted pics of our pro costumes, to bring them too.

I don't know how we got to the topic, but as Junior Troupe Member was standing there in her troupe costume, and I in my pro costume, she sort of whined and asked why her troupe costume wouldn't cut it. As if she honestly couldn't see the difference between my $700 pro costume encrusted in crystals, beads and fringe and her velvet wraparound top and coin hipscarf.

It boggles the mind.

I agree, Veritate. I am teaching one beginner class now, after 5 years of dancing with my instructor. But, I teach that (very small) class in her studio, under her watchful eye. And, I "apprenticed" with her as a substitute and even with her there in the class with me to make sure I was showing students the correct methods for doing things. And this class is one 6-week session for she (my instructor) and I to use as an assessment of whether or not I'd be capable to (and even want to) take on that class permanently. I doubt I will do it again this year, simply because the economy has resulted in such a low student enrollment that it's not worth the time at this point. It really is a good opportunity for me to expand my skills, though, and to see if I would like to teach someday.