Thread: Spin-off - Hobbyist Classes v. Pro Classes?

Here's the discussion that started from the other thread...

Originally Posted by AnnaTX
Maybe it's because many of us have had no formal training background and so we don't necessarily know how to teach FIRMLY because it has not been modeled to us.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance
But it's hard to be stern when you have hobbyists and dancers wanting to go pro in the same class.

I recently signed up for an adult ballet class. It's the first ballet class I've taken since I was 18 and had dreams of being a pro dancer of some sort (I don't think bellydance was in my mind at that time!). The ballet classes I am used to are HARD. Strict. Everyone wears black leotards, pink tights, ballet skirts, hair in bun, turn towards the barre, don't talk, etc. The teachers were strict because we were all serious students looking to take our dance to the next level.

NOW...in my adult ballet class, we do what we want, we wear what we want, we chit chat, our hair is in ponytails, we turn whatever darn way we please, etc. The class is lenient and fun -because it is OBVIOUS that none of us have hopes of being a pro ballerina any more! We are taking the class for FUN, so it needs to BE fun.

The problem with BD for most of us that we don't have the ability to separate our students into "those who want to go pro" and "those who want to just have fun." Because, unlike ballet where if you aren't pro by 18, you arent' going to be, you can "go pro" at any age in bd -whether that means performing, teaching, whatever. So, it's hard to be "strict" when you have a class mostly full of ladies who just want to have fun, but also with some who have pro aspirations.

It's a difficult balancing act.

And more...

Originally posted by AnnaTx

This is a challenge...

I've been thinking about this very subject a lot myself.

The one solution, though it's a logistical challenge for me right now, is to separate the two.

Have one fun fitness based class and then have one class for those interested in performer or improving...

Or some variation of that...

Maybe we should start a new topic?

Typed for original post...

Well, maybe then it just comes down to enough dancers agreeing to change the structure of classes offered.

I'm not talking about certifications or even trying to standardize what we call each individual movement -- that's all well and good, but because we are an ethnic dance form with so many different variations, it's not an easy task.

I feel though that if instructors started offering "training" classes in addition to their regular classes, as a standard thing, then we could improve our reputation and overall GP respect for ME dance, Pollyanna as it may sound. I know I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I think it's ridiculous that we only offer one hour a week for lessons.

We should have a "performance" track available where students take the regular classes with hobbyists and all and then those who wish to perform are also required to attend an additional "training" class that's run more like a serious ballet class - black yoga pants, fitted tops, noiseless hip scarves, ponytail hair and all. That class would be more focused, very drill-based and designed to train the body the way it should be, then you later add another hour with challenging choreography, improvisation exercises, etc. Then these students are evaluated periodically to let them know where they stand, whether they can move on to the next level, etc. Beginners would only do the one class a week, those interested, once they master the basics are invited and audition for the "pro program" and then they work their way up through Levels 2-4 with that program in addition to the "fun" classes. By the time they hit level 4, they're training in group lessons 3-4+ hours a week with the expectation they are also doing so at home.

As long as we continue to provide appropriate opportunities for "fun" performance and dress up, the hobbyist ladies (and gentlemen) don't have to feel left out of the fun and yet we can instill in them that there is, as there well should be, a commitment to training required to become a "real" pro.

I don't offer a separate class for pros, and I won't, because I don't teach them (and I'd go broke trying around here, I've only encountered three interested students in 6 years of teaching!)

I think it's ok to only offer one set of classes, as long as you're clear what that is. On the rare occasion that I've had students who expressed an interest in going pro, I've told them that I don't offer a professional course, nor do I have contacts to set them up with gigs, and I've offered to refer them to teachers who do.

I also refuse to call my performing class as 'troupe.' We're a 'repertory class' and I'm very cautious about where they perform (only events where you see other amateur adult groups, basically).

I really believe that at the pro level, bellydance becomes more of an individual pursuit, anyway, with a lot of self-directed learning.

Hmmmm... I should make up a little handout on this subject for students, or at least a page on my website. Make sure it's clear that I'm not offering a pro track, and give advice to those who seek pro training.

The closest I've been able to come to a "performer track" system really isn't a system yet, because it's so difficult to get past the first part of it! But, here goes:

I am currently holding a class called "Belly Dance Basics." This class has been in existence for many years, decades actually, first started by my mom. It is a true beginner class. I've created a curriculum based on giving people a solid foundation in basic technique from which they can grow and is designed to provide this foundation with about a year of classes (there are 8-9 sessions per year). Each movement is emphasized in at least three different sessions and will be covered in most lessons within that session. A person taking that year with me, and routinely practicing on his/her own at home, should have a good grasp of the movements. This is a "fun" class, but we do take our posture and technique seriously.

To take that up a notch, I instituted this year a "Let's Belly Dance!" class. It's still a beginner class; as a matter of fact, the first hour is the "Belly Dance Basics" class where they learn and drill technique, but the folks enrolled in "Let's Belly Dance!" stay for an additional 30-40 minutes and learn a routine based upon the movements drilled in the first hour. Thus they learn technique, then make simple dance with that technque.

My desire is that some people who take the technique/choreo combo class would want to learn more about the the complexities of BD and want to learn how to really dance. I'd take those students, give them a separate 1-hour technique/special topics class followed by a 1-hour improv/choreo class . . .

Good heavens . . . I believe I'm salivating!

Now, let's figure out how to make that happen!

Deborah

I think if I ever taught, I would do regular classes "hobbyist" and offer private for "pro".

That is of course if I ever reached the "pro" level. Damn intermediate level hurdle I've been stuck at for 9.5 years.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I really believe that at the pro level, bellydance becomes more of an individual pursuit, anyway, with a lot of self-directed learning.

Lauren, I'm with you on your complete post. I've been teaching for over 12 years, and have known many of my mom's students in the 30 years before that, and very few have ever "done anything" with the dance. I've found many of them at festivals and such, not usually dancing, and I know they take with other people, some of them pretty big names, but they really haven't improved a whole lot, nor do they seem to have those aspirations.

AND THAT'S OKAY. I know you agree with me.

But we teachers still have that desire to share with our students the absolute joy inherent in getting to know this dance better!

I'd just love to get someone to a good, solid intermediate level so he/she can perform (if desired) at student venues and small haflas. Actually, I have a student, not currently taking with me, who has discovered her aspirations for improvement and appropriate performance venues. We see each other socially, she helps me with my events, and she occasionally asks for my advice on pieces she's working on. She is very respectful of the dance, what it takes to be a good dancer, and is dedicated to representing BD properly. I am absolutely thrilled for her!

I'd just love to be this thrilled for others!

I agree whole-heartedly that folks with pro aspirations are on more of an individual pursuit than are "just for fun" students, and require more privates and workshops at a certain point than they do group classes but, heck, they've got to get to that point somehow and I'd like to part of that!

Deborah

So, maybe what we need to do is teach our students that they will not reach a professional level through weekly classes alone. That reaching pro levels requires extensive private coaching, in addition to classes, workshop, practice, musical study, videography study, and cultural readings.

Why not have the regular weekly class then right after have a "Performance based" class for the aspiring performers who are more serious about performing?

Ssipes, we posted at the same time. I agree with you.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

My desire is that some people who take the technique/choreo combo class would want to learn more about the the complexities of BD and want to learn how to really dance. I'd take those students, give them a separate 1-hour technique/special topics class followed by a 1-hour improv/choreo class . . .

Wow. That sounds like an utter dream, even to this hobbyist.

Good heavens . . . I believe I'm salivating!

Me too!

I think all the posters had some great ideas to separate "fun classes" from "performance" classes and I think it is doable. My only caveat is that comparing belly dances classes to the strict regimes of ballet training is the proverbial "apples and oranges" comparison. After all, when's the last time you went to a wedding and saw a bunch of kids and young adults and not so young adults get up and do ballet steps to the band, even if there's a harp? LOL, just the thought makes me giggle!
And because belly dance has such a social dancing tradition, as well as theatrical presentations, many people feel "anyone" can do it with little or no training. Also the steps do not have a standardized naming vocabulary to the extent ballet does. What is "first positon" of feet in belly dance? Anyone know 'cuz I've never been able to figure if there is a "first position". When I asked an Egyptian what "Basic Egyptian" was (also sometimes called "step lift") she looked at me blankly and said, "a BASIC Egyptian step is the hip drop....."

So what I'm saying is that it is hard to make comparisons of belly dance classes to ballet when belly dance has "social" dancing done from time time a child can stand at family parties.

And,I was involved in an adult ballet class for four years, 3x a week and let me tell you it was very structured and strict, , we could NOT wear what we wanted, or chitchat or be late or wear ponytails. The instructor literally locked the studio doors when she started class, no exceptions. No siree, and we did theatre performances in S.F. (I was the Oriental character dancer). I loved the experience but returned to belly dance becuase I was getting to the decision about going "on pointe" and it would have undermined my bellydance too much. Loved that ballet company and instructor, and she came to several of my belly dance performances - I sure had great turns and strong ankles and straight back from those four years so I bless her for that!

Just wanted to emphasize, though, with the problems I also see belly dance teachers encountering with "serious" performance driven students taking same class as "students there just for fun" - hard to control class sometimes, for sure. This is why I don't run regular dance classes! .w.:

Wow I haven't even thought about whether any of my students want to go Pro. I'm still trying to be a Pro myself and they would definitely havet to take privates to even get to an intermediate level as I only have Beginner classes now. So far i've only had one student who seemed to be more than a hobbyist but she left for college. If she'd stayed I would have encouraged her to attend workshops.

Originally Posted by Taj

Wow. That [having a technique/special topics class followed by a 1-hour improv/choreo class] sounds like an utter dream, even to this hobbyist.

And that class would be for you, Taj, someone who is a serious hobbyist. That's who most of our "serious" dancers are: hobbyists as opposed to someone who really wants to go pro. I think -- no, I know -- there are many "hobbyist" dancers who dance rings around some "professionals."

A class like this would be for anyone who was a serious student of BD; someone who wanted to go pro would need this same class. The training, advancing all the time, would remain the same for the hobbyist and future pro for a long time; I think the difference would come only when it was time to talk about the business aspect of BD.

Taj, can you clone yourself and come to my classes in SoCal?

Deborah

YES! As usual, Deborah and I are on the same wavelength!

My level 4 and repertory group are for serious hobbyists, and they're very performance-oriented -- BUT our performances are at haflas, workshop shows, and events where other amateur adult groups perform, so I don't consider any of my students 'pros.'

I have had several students who were what I'd call 'serious,' including one who attends every local workshop and event and certainly dances well enough to 'go pro' locally if she chose to.

Most of my advanced students perform solos at our annual student show, in nursing/retirement home shows we do as a group, etc. But they're not pros and don't have pro aspirations. They're serious hobbyists -- as are many of the best dancers I know!

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Taj, can you clone yourself and come to my classes in SoCal?

Deborah

Sigh. I wish!

But I hope this is something you can do, eventually. What an amazing resource you must be to your students.

Originally Posted by ssipes

So, maybe what we need to do is teach our students that they will not reach a professional level through weekly classes alone. That reaching pro levels requires extensive private coaching, in addition to classes, workshop, practice, musical study, videography study, and cultural readings.

I definately do this - in fact, I even go so far as to say that if you only dance in class (i.e. no home practice), and you only take one or or two classes a week, I don't think it's possible to even be a competent dancer. It may be why I've never had a student yet who's expressed interest in going pro; heck, it's like pulling teeth to even get many students to join the student troupe (maybe the 3 page troupe guidelines scares them off? ..l;,).

It's not so much coming out every session and making a blanket statement, but I talk in general/in passing about the commitments I have to make as a professional dancer, and it seems to get the message across. And I never fail to mention at least a couple of times per session that being a professional dancer means a commitment to a lifetime of continuously learning the craft.

Originally Posted by ssipes

So, maybe what we need to do is teach our students that they will not reach a professional level through weekly classes alone. That reaching pro levels requires extensive private coaching, in addition to classes, workshop, practice, musical study, videography study, and cultural readings.

I bring these same ideas up in my beginning classes.

I let people know that anyone can enjoy BD for him/herself, close friends and family.

Then I add that anyone who seeks more training or even wants to go pro will start exactly where they are, in this beginning class.

Eventually I mention (if someone doesn't ask first!) what it takes to be a serious (not necessarily pro) dancer and the extra commitment and the skill set needed to become a pro.

All the while I'm discussing these "upper eschelons" of BD, we're laughing and talking about taking our BD moves to the nightclub dance floor "just for fun."

It is, indeed, a balancing act.

Deborah

Originally Posted by laura 2

I definately do this - in fact, I even go so far as to say that if you only dance in class (i.e. no home practice), and you only take one or or two classes a week, I don't think it's possible to even be a competent dancer. It may be why I've never had a student yet who's expressed interest in going pro; heck, it's like pulling teeth to even get many students to join the student troupe (maybe the 3 page troupe guidelines scares them off? ..l;,).

It's not so much coming out every session and making a blanket statement, but I talk in general/in passing about the commitments I have to make as a professional dancer, and it seems to get the message across. And I never fail to mention at least a couple of times per session that being a professional dancer means a commitment to a lifetime of continuously learning the craft.

Cross post!

You know, kinda like "tag, you're it!"

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I bring these same ideas up in my beginning classes.

I let people know that anyone can enjoy BD for him/herself, close friends and family.

Then I add that anyone who seeks more training or even wants to go pro will start exactly where they are, in this beginning class.

Eventually I mention (if someone doesn't ask first!) what it takes to be a serious (not necessarily pro) dancer and the extra commitment and the skill set needed to become a pro.

ETA: Tagged you back!

All the while I'm discussing these "upper eschelons" of BD, we're laughing and talking about taking our BD moves to the nightclub dance floor "just for fun."

It is, indeed, a balancing act.

Deborah

This is very, no, make that exactly similar to my approach. I find that information sinks in better if it comes out organically, in conversation, as opposed to though an official statement or speech.

ETA: Tagged you back!

Originally Posted by Taj

Sigh. I wish!

But I hope this is something you can do, eventually. What an amazing resource you must be to your students.

You are so encouraging, Taj, I think it might actually be possible!

Thanks!

Deborah

I would imagine, outside of London,it would be impossible to run a class that while teachng sound basic technique was not aimed at fun and exercise.
A teacher can chose to more or less give up her time to help and give private attention/classes to the dancer "going places". But apart from that when her classes focus more and more on providing a light-hearted approach, she has to encourage her students to go to teachers more exerienced, to have a variety of teachers,to do privates, to go to weekend festivals, dance tours etc.

bayla zena teaches all new people.she sees who is in it for what.she had judged and won many contests.
if there is someone serious, or she feels has an instinct for it, she passes them on to me.but they have all their basics down pat with 2/4 zills.
the dancers who work for me, all meet once a week in what we call "master class "and take privates.

"serious hobbyists" i like that.bayla also takes SH to rest homes...guess that is a norm for us ?

My serious hobbyists have just started doing retirement homes, too, and even receiving a small stipend -- but so do some serious hobbyist line dancers, tap dancers, and barbershop quartets locally, so I don't see that as a 'pro' venue.

I know of one teacher in St. Louis who offers a pro level course -- I'm sure New York has classes of that level, and probably LA and other big cities. But smaller areas will never have enough pro dancers (who all respect a single teacher, even) to support it.

But then there's the line, among hobbyists, between the 'serious hobbyist' performance-oriented track and the 'fun and exercise, never wants to go onstage' person. The latter gets lost in my program, where the classes become increasingly hafla-oriented.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I know of one teacher in St. Louis who offers a pro level course -- I'm sure New York has classes of that level, and probably LA and other big cities. But smaller areas will never have enough pro dancers (who all respect a single teacher, even) to support it.

But then there's the line, among hobbyists, between the 'serious hobbyist' performance-oriented track and the 'fun and exercise, never wants to go onstage' person. The latter gets lost in my program, where the classes become increasingly hafla-oriented.

There are pro classes in the DC area, too. ..g.: As well as of course "fun and exercise" and "hafla oriented" classes. We're really lucky to have so much variety.

(eta: what I wrote below wasn't meant in response to any specific post on this thread, just stuff that's on my mind as a teacher and this thread seemed like a good spot to put it!)

I'll admit that, as a teacher, I get frustrated sometimes with accepting my students as they are instead of trying to mold them into what I want them to be.

80% of my students -- including those who perform in the rep group -- have no interest in even SEEING professional dancers. They don't go to restaurants or workshop shows, watch clips on youtube, buy videos, etc. They come to haflas, but only if they're in the show.

So the only dancing they ever see live is their own, and once or twice a year they see other students, a few local teachers, and me.

They're living in a bubble in terms of what's possible in this dance.

I have to accept that. They ARE hobbyists, with only one or two serious hobbyists among the group. They're having fun, and this dance brings tremendous joy and growth into their lives, but they're keeping it in perspective and it occupies a 'normal' space in their lives.

This dance has two roles in its native countries -- a social dance for having fun, nonjudgementally, with friends AND a professional cutthroat dance scene. I don't see any reason why it can't occupy both roles in the US, as long as we're VERY clear with our students what those two roles are and which level of training we're offering.

I think we need to be honest with *ourselves* first as teachers, about what level of training we're capable and interested in offering.

It's just as misleading to offer 'bellydance for fitness and fun' and then tear down people's self-esteem when they refuse to work hard at our Aaaahhhhrt form as it is to give amateur-level training and put the results in a restaurant.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

(
I think we need to be honest with *ourselves* first as teachers, about what level of training we're capable and interested in offering.

...and what will keep you solvent as a business person. In some places, there just isn't a market for certain types of classes, no matter how much you want to offer certain training.

Originally Posted by CFerhat

...and what will keep you solvent as a business person. In some places, there just isn't a market for certain types of classes, no matter how much you want to offer certain training.

Yeah. Life got tougher when my kids went to school and found out all the other kids get to eat *every* day!

...and the perennial "student voice" chimes in. Tell me to go away if you find me annoying.

When I fell for bd, I fell hard, but late. In other words, my health is already not good enough for me to ever consider even the tiniest pro career -- 1 class a week is my limit due to back problems, foot problems, et cetera, not to mention the fact that I am a very queen-sized person. So while I ADORE the dance, I cannot go pro.

If you have energy and adore the dance, but cannot go pro, where can your energy go? How about any of the things I've done:
--create a local club with a couple of dance buddies
--run its website
--organize multiple haflas per year
--perform at a "beginners permitted" hafla
--create a news email list for club members and publicize workshops around the area
--make requests to the teacher about styles and rhythms that sound interesting
--be friendly to new students
--take workshops whenever time/money/health permits
--give interviews when journalists come wandering around and extol the dance form
--help other dancers fit costumes
--pick up silk dyeing and become the local "go-to gal" of silk veils
--publicize local performances and patronize venues that employ good dancers
--stay in touch with the university dance club and attend some of their events

My point is... some of the hobbyists may spend as much time and money on dance as the pros (well, outside of costume expenses) if there is a community for them to feel a part of. Some students just come to class and go home and that's it; some are more enthusiastic about everything "around" the class.

I'm currently in my teacher's Level 4 class, which as high as her classes go right now. Some of the other students ARE pros. Would I mind if she split off Level 5 for "pros only"? Well, I'd miss some of my classmates. But if she had a specific learning goal for each class, and I fit in with mine, that would be okay... so long as we were all in it together, and I could still spend my time and energy on dance the way I love to.

Originally Posted by tigerb

...and the perennial "student voice" chimes in. Tell me to go away if you find me annoying.

When I fell for bd, I fell hard, but late. In other words, my health is already not good enough for me to ever consider even the tiniest pro career -- 1 class a week is my limit due to back problems, foot problems, et cetera, not to mention the fact that I am a very queen-sized person. So while I ADORE the dance, I cannot go pro.

My point is... some of the hobbyists may spend as much time and money on dance as the pros (well, outside of costume expenses) if there is a community for them to feel a part of. Some students just come to class and go home and that's it; some are more enthusiastic about everything "around" the class.

I'm certainly not going to tell you to go away, ms tigerb -- you make some great points!

I don't think "going pro" is the be-all, end-all of BD training by any means. I think we all can agree that "hobbyists" of all kinds are absolutely necessary for the "business of BD" to survive at all!

By your accounts, tigerb, you are a "serious hobbyist." I define the term as describing someone 1) who is interested in advancing her dance knowledge with continuing study, 2) who attends BD events, seminars, concerts, etc., when possible.

I don't think a serious hobbyist must perform in order to be considered serious. That said, I'd venture that most BD serious hobbyists do perform occasionally, often with their teachers' groups. But, again, it's not a requirement.

Let's say that I take piano lessons. Let's further say I have no plans to ever play the piano in a general-public setting. But I take lessons and practice regularly. I participate in my teacher's annual recital. I attend seminars, concerts and other events. I enjoy playing the piano and learning more about it. If I did all those things, I would definitely consider myself to be a serious hobbyist, even though I never set foot in any kind performance setting.

We don't have to perform to be serious!

Seriously! ..g.:

Deborah