Thread: PLEASE read my response: re: "Dancers holding themselves out as professional.."

hiya,

I'll have to do this in 2 or 3 posts due to word length....

I did this morning what I said I wouldn't do after getting an email from a member, who told me that I should post the info I emailed her in the "bellydancers holding themselves out to be professionals" thread, because it would make a difference as to what was being said. I went into that thread and nearly fell off my chair in shock! After reading post after post, words like "litigation" and "taking acts from others" and other innumerable allegations, I wanted to vomit. I thought, "Dear Lord in Heaven above! Who is that person they're talking about?"

Let me tell you who I am....straight from the horse's mouth.

When I first read "bellydancers holding themselves out to be professionals" thread, I knew the person referred to with such "disdain" was me, just as a member had implied it would. Thinly-veiled references to a reply I posted in another thread, in particular, "stoic audiences" and references to sword, fan, wings, etc, were confirmation.

First may I say, that in lieu of the "facts" which only I can state, I harbor no "ill will" toward anyone as they were presented with a biased and distorted perception of the facts.

Firstly, I am not a 32 week wonder as was so sarcastically implied. I started bellydancing in 2005. Between then and 2007, I had instruction from 3 teachers. I joined a troupe for 5 or 6 months. After that, I became one-half of a duo with another dancer, who also sung. We choreographed routines, and after 5 months, decided to go our separate ways. I then went solo and have done so for 6 months. My focus was to entertain seniors. That venue was one with which I was familiar, my dad and mom having been residents in nursing homes themselves. The "stoic audiences" I referred to in one of my posts was in reference to elderly people in nursing homes who have little or no cognizance. Not to say that there isn't one or two, who manage a feeble smile, a squeeze of the hand or some gesture of appreciation, which to me is worth it all. I have been in many of those kinds of places. Not only is it sad but especially so when I see a face that reminds me of mom or dad.

I realize that having practiced bellydancing for 3 years and practicing hard every day does NOT qualify me as being a "professional bellydancer." That is an area of expertise reserved for those who have practiced and performed for years. In all the time I have been performing, I have never presented myself as a "professional bellydancer." I explain to recreational directors and the audience that what I do is a fusion type dancing, a variety show that includes bellydancing, soft style martial arts sword dance; playing the castanets, which I have been doing for 3 years; Oriental silk fan dance, which is based on some martial arts moves, along with other elements. However people choose to refer to me after I am gone is beyond my control.

to be continued...

I have practiced soft style martial artforms including t'ai chi sword for over 20 years and have written many articles about it in the past in martial arts magazines in the US. I have been a published writer of many health and fitness articles, but have not written anything in that genre in a long time. The sword dance that I perform opens and closes with the actual movements from the "T'aoist T'ai Chi 32 form." It does not have any reference nor relevance to the sword employed in bellydancing, nor is it made out to be anything other than what it is.

EVERY ROUTINE, EVERY DANCE, EVERTHING THAT I PERFORM HAS BEEN CHOREOGRAPHED BY ME. I HAVE PAGES AND PAGES OF CHOREOGRAPHED SHEETS SITTING ON A TABLE BESIDE ME AS I SPEAK. I HAVE NOT "STOLEN" ANY ROUTINE FROM ANYONE NOR WILL I EVER DO SO." Having been a published writer, I know all about copyright law. I need no lawyer to explain to me that which I already know nor do I need a lawyer to explain to me about the consequences of "defamation of character."

I am aware that in my bhuz profile, I am listed as a "professional bellydancer," and that's because the other options were something like "cabaret dancer" and I can't remember whatever else didn't really fit me either. That is something I need to change, if I can ever figure out how to change my profile.

>> The fact is, that over 75% of my performances this year, the duo gigs included from the past, have been "HAWAIIAN LUAUS." I don't know where the thread originator claims to have gotten her information, but the person spoken of in that "closed thread" with such disdain, was never me.

You've never seen my show, Susu; and to my knowledge, no one in the bellydancing community here ever has as well - that is, other than a show I did early on with my then-dancing partner at a nursing home. We were just starting out at the time, the show was shaky and she was having much difficulty with her sound equipment. We would start, then have to stop, then start up again. That show was attended by a few members of the bellydancing community, who sat outside in the hallway until I invited them in. During that performance, the material we used was our OWN.

to be continued...

I have nothing else to say in my defense. If I have misrepresented myself, then God strike me dead. I love to dance, I love to entertain. My father was the same way. I will continue until I or God decides I've danced my last dance, amen. In all my travels, I have never been referred to as a "spectacle" nor treated that way. For someone who doesn't know me, has never seen my show, that was very harsh, very presumptuous and very unkind.

Yesterday, I was discouraged, I will admit. And I was really sad. I thought is this worth it, or should I just quit? I guess deep down inside, I was looking for confirmation from God as to what path to take. I am a Christian, and if I didn't have my faith, I could not have gotten through the past two years of grief. Along with these thoughts, I was constructing this email to the thread originator, when my phone rang. An elderly lady, who is in charge of entertainment for a "friendship club" called. I presented my program and exactly what it is I do, to which she replied: "Dancing is dancing and we all enjoy the dance." I believe that wise old bird pretty much said it all!

In closing: This is who I am, and who I will remain. I will not be bullied by others nor made to feel like I've done something wrong! I have the right to make my own decisions and to choose the direction in which I wish to go in at ANY point in my life! And that is exactly what I have done and will continue to do. If a person ever loses their "rights to artistic freedom and individual choices" then this world will surely be a ****ty place to dwell!

have a blessed day!

Crystallia, I appreciate your posts here. Hope you will stick around. There are a ton of things to learn about ME dance, and Bhuz is a great resource.

Originally Posted by Taj

Crystallia, I appreciate your posts here. Hope you will stick around. There are a ton of things to learn about ME dance, and Bhuz is a great resource.

Taz, God bless ya! As I have always said, there's a wealth of information here, support and good people here in Bhuz!

It is nice to read your input. I applaud your efforts to entertain our Honored Senior Citizens. I only hope to live long enough to have caring people such as yourself wanting to entertain me in my later years. (I do hope if I am ever in a wheelchair mine will have rhinestones, bitty bells and streamers of A'kai silk attached.)

Bhuz is not only fun but educational. Thank you for staying strong and posting.

Crystallia, it can be hard to be called out. You have a right to tell your side of the story, since Susu has presented hers.

I believe you when you say your motives are honorable. I respect you for trying to explain what you do and why you do it.

May I comment on what you have told us about yourself? I'm responding here to what YOU have said in describing yourself.

On the thread where you posted about "stoic audiences", I did mean what I said when I suggested that you might want to continue honing your dance skills. Now, knowing that your audiences are nursing home residents does put a different spin on things - as you have said, if they are frail enough to need nursing home care, then they are probably also limited in their ability to respond to your performance.

Still, I would urge you to DANCE to the very best of your ability even for this audience, rather than relying on prop gimmicks. One mistake many dancers make is underestimating their audience. Although these folks may be limited in their ability to respond to you, they still SEE what you do. Some may be retired ballerinas, or retired dance studio owners, or lifelong balletomanes. In other words, they may be people who know highly-skilled dancing when they see it, and when they were younger they have been regulars in the audience at the Moscow Ballet, or they may have even performed in Broadway shows in New York. You won't want to insult them by assuming that they are only capable of appreciating flashy props.

I'm not saying you should stop performing, only that you should continue honing and perfecting your craft. After 27 years of belly dancing, I'm still honing and perfecting mine, so I'm not picking on you and your 3 years of experience when I say this. When you perform, don't patronize your audiences - whether they be nursing home residents, children, people with limited mental function, etc., all deserve the very best dance technique and artistry you can offer. It's great that you want to bring joy into the lives of nursing home residents, and I hope you can use that desire to motivate yourself to be the very best you can be for them.

So I urge you to continue your dance studies, and continue growing in your technique and artistry.

I have been following the other post and I liked seeing both sides of the discussion.

Do not give up dancing...

Also - who is to say you are not a "professional dancer"? I have a few friends that danced for a year or two and hit the circuit. They referred to themselves as "professional".

In reading both threads, no one has been able to define this term. I always defined professional as someone who begins dancing for money. Musicians often times will define themselves as professional when they make a CD or get signed to a label. Painters will sometimes define themselves as professionals when they begin selling art. What defines a dancer as professional?

I guess this will never be answered.

Originally Posted by txchic

It is nice to read your input. I applaud your efforts to entertain our Honored Senior Citizens. I only hope to live long enough to have caring people such as yourself wanting to entertain me in my later years. (I do hope if I am ever in a wheelchair mine will have rhinestones, bitty bells and streamers of A'kai silk attached.)

Bhuz is not only fun but educational. Thank you for staying strong and posting.

Thanks a million for your kind and caring words! Sometimes, I don't even understand what it is inside me that drives me forward especially in the face of adversity. A powerful "unseen force" that literally makes me feel the need and the desire to go into these places no matter the level of cognizance or awareness, trying to connect with anyone there I can....there've been places where some elderly person who can barely whisper, has latched hold of my hand and mouthed the words, "thank-you." Where does this kind of stuff come from? It's beyond me, its' beyond you....it's just there.

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I have been following the other post and I liked seeing both sides of the discussion.

Do not give up dancing...

Also - who is to say you are not a "professional dancer"? I have a few friends that danced for a year or two and hit the circuit. They referred to themselves as "professional".

In reading both threads, no one has been able to define this term. I always defined professional as someone who begins dancing for money. Musicians often times will define themselves as professional when they make a CD or get signed to a label. Painters will sometimes define themselves as professionals when they begin selling art. What defines a dancer as professional?

I guess this will never be answered.

Ravena, I'm a real simple person and wordly pursuits have never been my dream. I am not well-travelled nor have I done amazing things in my life. I only want the contributions that I am able to make to count for something and especially to those who need it the most. I want to be healthy and happy, and to be treated with respect and dignity. I am no stranger to loss nor adversity, and I wonder why some of the things I experience have to happen. Maybe, I needed to be strengthened at the time, maybe I have some kind of mission to achieve, maybe there's a higher purpose involved...all I know is that life is a journey filled with joy and sorrow and a host of conflicting opinions. Always I am aware that what is now is just for a season, and I truly think that's what keeps me going. I think people need to give people room to breathe, room to create, room to do what it is they have to do, room to be who they truly are and not what others expect or think them to be. Such is the artistic and individual freedom I spoke of. As for professionalism, the concept and the definition allude me.

(ahh, all my dangling participles, incomplete sentences....not good for someone who used to be a writer, imao)

Thank you for sharing your side of the story, Crystallia. I hope you continue to study and to perform and that you continue to participate here on Bhuz.

You will be blessed for your kindness and care toward those seniors.

Dear God, people on here will throw stones, won't they? Good for you for standing your ground and stating that you will not be bullied. There's an awful lot of snobbery on the increase on this board...

It could be argued that props are a means to mask the shortcomings of the unimaginative dancer...but many many years ago, I too entertained in rest and nursing homes...as did quite a few of the dancers I know who are now at the top of their 'profession'. We cut our teeth in that particular arena. In my experience, the audience there enjoyed whatever we did... be they with props or no. And I had one old girl of 90 odd who told me she could not see my moves but could really appreciate the use of my colourful sparkly veils and sticks.

As for your credentials as a dancer....? Well, to those who have made you feel hurt - it's all very well getting all sanctimonious and holier than thou on here when you've been dancing for a long long time and have forgotten where you came from. We have to start somewhere. I personally, turned pro after only 1 year. The bottom line was... I could dance. And I didn't just think I could dance, I knew I could. And if that sounds big headed, I don't give a ****. It's as simple as that. No amount of training will turn a bad dancer into a great dancer....it comes from within.

I have not seen you dance, and so i cannot judge how good or bad you are...but that you have been hurt enough to feel the need to come on here and defend yourself is not good. But I think you must toughen up to comments on here some of which are valid and some of which are just plain snotty.

it would be an interesting exercise to see those who criticised you post themselves up on You Tube so that we could all assess *their* dancing skills....:zillevil:

[QUOTE=kharis_UK;259361]Dear God, people on here will throw stones, won't they? Good for you for standing your ground and stating that you will not be bullied. There's an awful lot of snobbery on the increase on this board...

I have not seen you dance, and so i cannot judge how good or bad you are...but that have been hurt enough to feel the need to come on here and defend yourself is not good. But I think you must toughen up to comments on here some of which are valid and some of which are just plain snotty.

hiya, yeah, I considered turning the other cheek and not responding altogether. Then I got an email from a member referring to all the bhuz, and i answered her with pretty much what i've written here, but in condensed form. She strongly advised me to state the facts in a post, and that not doing so would not be good. So there you go...a kind of should I, shouldn't I dilemma evolved. It's interesting what a new day can bring after a good night's sleep filled with skunk fumes from a skunk living under my house, eh? ya, private joke, new dilemma, imao. Why isn't that friggin' trap, I set outside workingggggg? Smart li'l skunk! Bottom line is and here's a real challenge: I have to catch him soon before he settles in real cozy for the winter with his mate and starts a family...that leaves me about 6-8 weeks to outmanoeuver him, which means I'll probably go thru about 16 cans of Friskies trying to get him then setting free 16 felines who went where they 'aught not have gone, bad kitties, meow. I guess it's truly a cat's life...all 9 of them.

my only addition to this thread is............................this is a very subjective art, and opinions, and emotions run high, especially when not all facts are presented, which leads to skewed perception.....

it's very important to develop a thick skin............we'll be called out on our age, ability, looks (or lack thereof), weight, business acumen and credentials.............

if one reads into a comment, post, or statement, it is up to one to decide how to proceed........often, statements are very general, and while may have basis in a situation, isn't necessarily a 'call-out', but merely 'how would bhuzzers.....' as such situations occur everywhere.....if one sees themselves in it......it's best to clear things privately.......this way, the discussion continues unimpeded, and objectively......unless one is called out, there's no need to personalize, but once you deal with the personal situation, opinions are always welcome, and it's a healthy case of 'agree-to-disagree' in some subjects......

i'm not pontificating(or trying not to), but this is truly how i feel viable discussions can be maintained, hopefully without someone feeling crucified or 'outed'.........

bhuz is a wonderful resource to trade ideas, debate, and hopefully bridge gaps in our industry and in our art..........just continue to hone one's skill (24 years hear and STILL learning), behave accordingly and most of all, don't lose sight of how happy it makes us!

Crystallia, I would regard you as a professional dancer - I wish I had the strength to dance for seniors. I probably would break down crying for them as I wear my heart on my sleeve at times. Honey, you are more professional than me or most other dancers here on Bhuz - and I don't just mean in dance but in mannerism. I am guilty of throwing stones at other dancers and dancers at me (those who have had the misfortune to see me dance ;).

HUGS ALL AROUND!! I love this place.

I have been called some "not so nice things" by people in the community. Why? Who knows and I really do not care what those people think. I know that I am a good person. I know that I am honest. I know that I do things with the "best" of intentions. I am happy with me and love me. I am blessed to have a wonderful and supportive family and friends.

No matter how long I dance in this world - I will always be a "work in progress"

:-)

Originally Posted by Crystallia

Smart li'l skunk! Bottom line is and here's a real challenge: I have to catch him soon before he settles in real cozy for the winter with his mate and starts a family...that leaves me about 6-8 weeks to outmanoeuver him, which means I'll probably go thru about 16 cans of Friskies trying to get him

Try marshmallows. Seriously. We had a skunk living under our front porch, and that's what the guy from animal control told us to put in the trap. That and tuna.

I can't tell you if it works, because we took out the bush covering the opening at the base of the corner of our porch, and the skunk moved away of his own accord--didn't like that his entrance was so exposed, I think, but that was what the animal control guy suggested.

Heh, I've probably told this story before here, but we had a skunk family move into our garage one spring. They ignored the trap, but finally moved on when I went inside and played my zils.

*so bad at zilling even skunks run away!*

A few fourpennorth ( as we say)
I understand of use of lots of props with the elderly. The extra stimulus is great for people whose hearing may not pick all all sounds (eg your music) and so miss out there. Sight may be failing and extra colour and shape is welcome. Above all sounds like you make a lot of effort to make your act fun.
You get paid for these events and many would say that makes you professional..you are when you entertain these folks and sounds like the effort you put in to please them is as it should be.
You were sooo right to stand up and defend yourself and state it as you see it.
This was something that obviously stuck in Susu's craw and how much better if had she tackled you privately instead of all the deviousness and heavy hints as to who you were and what crime she considered you had committed.
Otherwise the thread could have considered the issue of professionalism and what it means far more generally.
I mean Kharis and I had already started it off for you all

Bhuz is for discussion which can get quite fraught, it shouldn't be used by someone who has an axe to grind. I think it just happened to me on a thread when anyone who realises it, will have been totally misled.

I reiterate if you are not capable of turning an issue into a format that keeps it all impersonal then it's better if names are mamed and people can stand up for themself. While some some might rush ff to see "the fight to the right", I frankly would prefer those axes to be sharpened quietly and those agendas firmly kept hidden away from Bhuz-eyes.

Originally Posted by jasani

Crystallia, I would regard you as a professional dancer - I wish I had the strength to dance for seniors. I probably would break down crying for them as I wear my heart on my sleeve at times. Honey, you are more professional than me or most other dancers here on Bhuz - and I don't just mean in dance but in mannerism. I am guilty of throwing stones at other dancers and dancers at me (those who have had the misfortune to see me dance ;).

jasani, your kind words are about to move me to tears. believe me when i tell you that i am nothing special, i am no one memorable, i just am who i was made to be. i am not the best dancer around, nor am i the worst by far. i just feel the spirit within and then i move to the beat. i can hardly deny myself the pleasure of that.

As for entertaining the seniors, the majority of what i've done this year has been in the way of "Hawaiian Luaus." They seem to like the leis and grass skirts, the colors, the party atmosphere, the rainsticks, uli uli shakers, and bamboo sticks, the music a la Tiny Bubbles by Don Ho - Elvis' "Blue Hawaii." Presenting some of those 'oldies but goodies' seems to bring back fond memories for them.

thankfully, in a few days toward the weekend after i get over this cold i'm nursing, i'm going to take a long vacation, drive over the US border heading westward and forget where i live, and let the phone ring itself right off the wall with no answering machine turned on, and let the mailbox pile itself up with letters and dust, and whatever else that's going to happen here when i'm not around, and then just live in the moment....with no past or present behind or before me, only the "here and now." i've always wanted to do that, and i'm going to. maybe, it'll inspire me to start writing again.

Originally Posted by Taj

*so bad at zilling even skunks run away!*

**Snort.** I love this. I'm having a hate/hate relationship with my zills at the moment. Nice to know my zilling might be good for something, someday.

Originally Posted by Shalimah

Try marshmallows. Seriously. We had a skunk living under our front porch, and that's what the guy from animal control told us to put in the trap. That and tuna.

I can't tell you if it works, because we took out the bush covering the opening at the base of the corner of our porch, and the skunk moved away of his own accord--didn't like that his entrance was so exposed, I think, but that was what the animal control guy suggested.

i hate to be a broken record, but bhuzzers sure are a source of information! i am off, kleenex box in tow, to buy a bag of marshmallows. And it isn't for the bonfire i'm not going to have. it's for that little skunk....oh have i got a pretty coloured marshmallow just for YOU. also, for animal lovers, the skunk if i catch him, won't be taken to the humane society and destroyed. my handyman will come and take his trap and then go out to the woods and bushes nearby and set that critter free. animals have rights too! just think how happy he'll be out there runnin around in the woods spraying around his fumes.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

A few fourpennorth ( as we say)

This was something that obviously stuck in Susu's craw and how much better if had she tackled you privately instead of all the deviousness and heavy hints as to who you were and what crime she considered you had committed.

Otherwise the thread could have considered the issue of professionalism and what it means far more generally.


Bhuz is for discussion which can get quite fraught, it shouldn't be used by someone who has an axe to grind. I think it just happened to me on a thread when anyone who realises it, will have been totally misled.

I reiterate if you are not capable of turning an issue into a format that keeps it all impersonal then it's better if names are mamed and people can stand up for themself. While some some might rush ff to see "the fight to the right", I frankly would prefer those axes to be sharpened quietly and those agendas firmly kept hidden away from Bhuz-eyes.

Now having standards is having an axe to grind, simply because this issue involves two Bhuzzers?

Oh brother.

We seriously need to get a backbone on this board. We need to figure out what we stand for and then actually fight for it for real instead of having abstract general discussions all the time.

What better place to discuss things than here?!

Okay, I'm editing my original remark.

I really don't think you are reading this situation correctly, Mish-mish. Discussions about particular Bhuzzers' standards or lack thereof, in the way this was done, don't *advance* the discussion, especially since, as we've seen here, we only had one side of the story.

Editing again to add: In other words, this was not a good case for *your* argument.

Originally Posted by Taj

Okay, I'm editing my original remark.

I really don't think you are reading this situation correctly, Mish-mish. Discussions about particular Bhuzzers' standards or lack thereof, in the way this was done, don't *advance* the discussion, especially since, as we've seen here, we only had one side of the story.

Editing again to add: In other words, this was not a good case for *your* argument.

I've heard somewhere that there are actually 3 sides to a story, can't remember who said that to me - I think it was my ex. He said, there are the sides of the people involved, which I guess we can assume he meant 2, and then there is the truth. I should've asked him what he meant.

What defines a dancer as professional?

*** thought it ment you make your living from what you do.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

Now having standards is having an axe to grind, simply because this issue involves two Bhuzzers?

Oh brother.

We seriously need to get a backbone on this board. We need to figure out what we stand for and then actually fight for it for real instead of having abstract general discussions all the time.

What better place to discuss things than here?!

This was not just about a concern over standards but a private spat brought into our forum by one teacher and levelled at another dancer.

If we don't know the "standards" of the dancers from personal experience, how on earth can we judge who is in the right?
And why shouldn't we then hear the other side.

This was a personal issue not brought up as a general concern on standards but because one teacher felt slighted by a student going off to do their own thing. I don't know either Susu or Crystilla. I haven't seen them dance. According to her Crystilla was misrepresented by Susu and that shouldn't happen, should it?
If a student, teacher or fellow dancer tells what I consider to be lies about me..have I not got the right to counter that.
But more importantly do you really want to read all about my or her petty problems on the WWW? No we should sort it out personally.

So I come on the board and say " Ooo a gal (but I'm not saying who)in our town has got her gig by sleeping wth the restauranteur and she's a sh4t dancer". Don't you think someone will start to put 4 and 4 together and make 4 or even 5? And wouldn't you all think you should hear her side of things. And who would you believe? You don't know either of us really and most importantly do you really want to be bothered read about this kind of thing.
It is possible to discuss standards without getting the axe out and don't tell me this wasn't a case of an axe at the ready.

I'm with Liz.

We can all discuss that 'six-week wonders shouldn't go out taking restaurant gigs or teaching too soon.' We can even discuss how to prevent this as teachers, or how to assess ourselves, or refine our thinking on how soon is too soon by discussing it.

We can also agree that teachers shouldn't be overly controlling, should encourage their students to take from other instructors, and to develop their own styles. We can agree that it's bad to be a teacher who is jealous of her students' success or feels like she must own them.

But when it comes down to individual cases, we don't know the players well enough to be judge and jury.

Is Crystallia a delusional crap dancer out humiliating us all in the name of artistic freedom with overly-propped bad fusion?

Is Susu a jealous crone who just can't recognize her students' other training and can't stand to see them find success without her?

How the hell should I know? I won't take sides in this. And to be fair, I'll crosspost this on the 'locked threads' thread as well.

Totally agree with Liz.

The first time I saw a belly dancer (instructor) and her students was in a nursing home. The joy those dancers brought to the room was inspirational and their performance gave occasion for positive reminiscing, since many of our seniors were seasoned travelers. So, kudos to Crystallia for dancing in nursing homes. It isn't just the seniors watching, the staff is too.

Could a dancer be fantastic at three years? Yes, I've witnessed one. Her nickname was "Jewels". She was a highly polished, zill playing performer at one year.

To refute another's negative interpretation of your life is to be expected. Especially when it's in a public forum. Bravo to Crystallia for articulating it so well. Questioning their motivation for negativity would be next. Perhaps you have good qualities they would enjoy having.