Thread: Professional, Schmessional (RANT)

Ok, we all see these posts of who is professional and who is not professional.

What makes a professional dancer: time in, skill, whether they teach or perform, whether they are paid or not....blah,blah,blah

****Newsflash****Professionals in any field, range in skill level. Professional is just too general a term.

I propose in all the belly dance classes and communities around the world that we simultaneously stop using the term "professional", as the end-all-be-all of the craft, because it's not.

If we strived for something more, than simply being "called" a professional, perhaps we could raise the bar a bit.

I vote for the term "accomplished dancer (or teacher)", but I'm sure there are other terms that could be used depending on your field of interest within the dance itself.

What do you think would be a better name or term to use?

Hey, I noticed noone looked at the post, but this question was posed by me a few months ago on the forum, and the outcome appears in an article in my most recent issue of undulations. I don't want to hijack, so just if you're interested check it out on my website.
Sonja
www.tnbellydance.com

HOw about "Working Dancer" to mean paid; when I got my first regular paying gig at a hookah bar, my teacher said, "Well, you're a working girl now!":) I think they use the same term for steady working actors ("working actors" or "character(?) actors") who aren't, like, Movie Stars, per se...

thanks Sonja...I was so excited... I forgot to search....

Hmm, wouldn't it be cool if the entire bd world could agree to standards, as they do in martial arts? And you had examinations to pass in order to be able to wear the coveted black bedlah?

Seriously, though, I agree with you that "professional" is a broad term that can be construed in too many ways to be useful when we're debating relative quality of dancer A vs dancer B. If we're going to continue to have such discussions (which it seems likely we will), perhaps we should define a new vocabulary to help us with the discussion. The article in Undulations goes over some of this and maybe is a good place to start.

Master? As in "master dancer," "master teacher," etc. Of course, the question would still remain as to how one defines a "master dancer," but I do think it strongly suggests that the person is very skilled.

Originally Posted by Lesgemini_Zafirah

HOw about "Working Dancer" to mean paid; when I got my first regular paying gig at a hookah bar, my teacher said, "Well, you're a working girl now!":) I think they use the same term for steady working actors ("working actors" or "character(?) actors") who aren't, like, Movie Stars, per se...

Ah well "working girl" has certain connatations in dear old Britain...g.:

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Ok, we all see these posts of who is professional and who is not professional.

What makes a professional dancer: time in, skill, whether they teach or perform, whether they are paid or not....blah,blah,blah

****Newsflash****Professionals in any field, range in skill level. Professional is just too general a term.

Thank you for starting this, Anna, because it's clear this issue is a hot button issue these days.

I've been reading the various threads on profesisonalism that are raging right now and wanting to share my impression on what "professional dancer" means vs. "professional behavior/skill/achievement".

Long story short; my troupe director and belly dance mentor booked me into my first paid gig this month. In her e-mail, she said, "You're now a professional belly dancer - congratulations! Don't let anyone tell you differently..." Meaning, you're getting paid to dance, so you're a pro.

The same way a hockey player goes from amateur to pro when he gets drafted to the WHL. You don't have to play for the NHL to get paid to play hockey. There's so far to go before "the big leagues" but you're making money for doing it, so you're pro. The same way a screenwriter is a "professional" from the time he first sells a script. It could be a poor script, but someone bought it.

Whether I've been dancing and studying for two years or six months, people are paying to see me dance. Period.

It still doesn't say anything about my skill, artistry, philosophy, behavior, talent, education or acclaim. (Those are for the audience and my dancing peers to judge.) It simply means I'm getting money.

So basically, I agree that "professional" is simply not the best way to describe a dancer, especially when you're talking about the "level" she has achieved.

As to alternatives? I don't know.

I know for myself, simply getting paid to dance is certainly NOT the "be all and end all" of my aspirations. I hope to be expressive. Authentic. I hope to pass the love and passion for this dance to others (i.e., teach and inspire).

I guess what my ultimate goal is, is to be sought-after. To be in high demand. Both by clients, for performance, and by students, for instruction. Because that means I've built a reputation for skill, artistry and professionalism and I'm highly-recommended.

I'm more inclined to be impressed by terms like "award-winning", "well-travelled", "authentic", and "sought-after" when dancers describe themselves or are described to me.

Just my 2 Canadian cents.

Sonya, I read the article...loved it!!! I'm looking forward to reading more in Undulations!

But I don't think it is discussing exactly what I was going for in this topic though..

What I'm thinking, is if we start to get across to new dancers with stars in their eyes, to see beyond just getting paid and calling themselves professional, then perhaps we can the set tone that more is expected and required to be really good or effective at what we do.

Hi, fellow Calgarian. I know Amarna and Jamilee (re: your profile). (Jamilee is my instructor's best friend, and Amarna used to be my instructor's student.) They're both amazing dancers.

Anyway, just wanted to say hello.

Sorry for the off topic interruption.

Liza lol!!!

Shalimah - PM Sent!

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Ah well "working girl" has certain connatations in dear old Britain...g.:

Hehehe--Means the same over here "across the pond"...which is why I changed it to Working Dancer. But I don't think that really fits, either :-/

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

What I'm thinking, is if we start to get across to new dancers with stars in their eyes, to see beyond just getting paid and calling themselves professional, then perhaps we can the set tone that more is expected and required to be really good or effective at what we do.

I agree.

It's true: we BDers tend to tack more onto the term professional than the relatively simple concept of being paid to dance. We definitely attach a *quality* qualifier, as it were, and expect a certain level of technical/entertainment expertise from our pros; and, of course, there are varying levels of *quality* within the pro ranks. We BDers also have certain expectations regarding ethics, conduct, etc.

We BDers actually have similar requirements for dancing pros as most people do for the other *professionals* in their lives: doctors and lawyers.

Sure, lots of people can get the schooling, pass the tests and hang out their shingles as doctors and lawyers, but we all know that not all doctors and lawyers are created equal. In other words, we expect certain qualities from these professionals, qualities ranging from good skills to appropriate conduct.

So it is with belly dance.

I don't think it is necessarily wrong for our art to require more from our pros than the simple fact of who gets paid and who doesn't, but I think that sometimes seriously good hobbyists don't get their due. And that is wrong.

Deborah

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Ok, we all see these posts of who is professional and who is not professional.

What makes a professional dancer: time in, skill, whether they teach or perform, whether they are paid or not....blah,blah,blah

****Newsflash****Professionals in any field, range in skill level. Professional is just too general a term.

I propose in all the belly dance classes and communities around the world that we simultaneously stop using the term "professional", as the end-all-be-all of the craft, because it's not.

I know what you mean, AnnaTX, but I don't have a good idea of what to do about it! ..c::

Deborah

How about "slinging hash" or is it "slinging "tabouli"?

Azeeza

Originally Posted by Lesgemini_Zafirah

HOw about "Working Dancer" to mean paid; when I got my first regular paying gig at a hookah bar, my teacher said, "Well, you're a working girl now!":) I think they use the same term for steady working actors ("working actors" or "character(?) actors") who aren't, like, Movie Stars, per se...

I think the term "time served' is a good one. Though not all time served dancers are the only good ones.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

I think the term "time served' is a good one. Though not all time served dancers are the only good ones.

well a time served worker was also callled a skilled man . I dare say some were more skilled than others.

I think people equate getting paid for something to being talented or good. I guess the idea is people will pay for quality things/services, which isn't always the case.

Perhaps with students, we should emphasize honing in talent and skill rather than getting to the pay.

I haven't been to any of the "big' names' websites; do they specifically call themselves professional? I seem to remember words like "sought-after", "master", "expert", etc.

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

Sonya, I read the article...loved it!!! I'm looking forward to reading more in Undulations!

But I don't think it is discussing exactly what I was going for in this topic though..

What I'm thinking, is if we start to get across to new dancers with stars in their eyes, to see beyond just getting paid and calling themselves professional, then perhaps we can the set tone that more is expected and required to be really good or effective at what we do.

Ahh Haaa.... Sorry!!! I should've read more closely!!

Originally Posted by khalisah

Hmm, wouldn't it be cool if the entire bd world could agree to standards, as they do in martial arts? And you had examinations to pass in order to be able to wear the coveted black bedlah?

Seriously, though, I agree with you that "professional" is a broad term that can be construed in too many ways to be useful when we're debating relative quality of dancer A vs dancer B. If we're going to continue to have such discussions (which it seems likely we will), perhaps we should define a new vocabulary to help us with the discussion. The article in Undulations goes over some of this and maybe is a good place to start.

best. idea. ever.

and, seriously, one i've considered. my hubby is a 2nd degree blackbelt and his students are so INCREDIBLY courteous, polite, and respectful. none of them run out after 8 weeks and declare themselves instructors or professionals. none of them claim to know how to use certain weapons without actually having to be that rank (unlike dancers who say "oh, i can dance style X" but haven't really had training in it). i wonder why we have that so frequently in our field?

what's frustrating is that even the dancers who try to come up with some type of certification or training course are looked at with skepticism. i'm not entirely sure why, in part i'm sure it's because people think that they might be in it "just for the money." or perhaps some people have experienced the programs and think that they're either too hard or not hard enough. there's so much room for opinion, it seems! ..g.:

in talking with my hubby, he mentioned that students advance in rank when they are "ready." i find it interesting because it always seems that in our field people seem so rushed to do things before they are ready. i wonder what the big hurry is?

I think it's again how things are presented. Belly dance is presented as being easy.

From what my friend (who is some kind of black belt) has explained to me, also there is kind of a mentorship thing with his students and him. For instance, he has them all sit down at the end to talk about what they learned, what they're struggling with, etc.

I think also sometimes new things are dismissed and met with skepticism until they're proved to be good ideas.

re: what Misha touched on....

One clear thing has come to my mind re: why I have rushed, it was because I started dancing at 28. I've always felt that a lot of time has been lost. I didn't get the chance to dance since I was a teen or younger. So, I felt like I had to practice, study, and perform 2 or 3 times harder to catch up to the young and plentiful talent in the Seattle community.

But I didn't think I could cut corners...I understood that I had to really apply myself.

Indigo made some good points about the martial art Master/Student relationship and about skepticism re: new program. I was in martial arts as a teen, and it's very big on respect and self awareness. Being able to accurately gauge your own skill level and being aware of your situation and whether you have the skills to meet the challenge.

Pretty soon everyone is going to have a certification program. I think it's a good thing...at least it's causing teachers to critically think about their programs.

Originally Posted by Lesgemini_Zafirah

HOw about "Working Dancer" to mean paid; when I got my first regular paying gig at a hookah bar, my teacher said, "Well, you're a working girl now!":) I think they use the same term for steady working actors ("working actors" or "character(?) actors") who aren't, like, Movie Stars, per se...

"working girl" = "prostitute" - at least around here!

Originally Posted by misha

best. idea. ever.

and, seriously, one i've considered. my hubby is a 2nd degree blackbelt and his students are so INCREDIBLY courteous, polite, and respectful. none of them run out after 8 weeks and declare themselves instructors or professionals. none of them claim to know how to use certain weapons without actually having to be that rank (unlike dancers who say "oh, i can dance style X" but haven't really had training in it). i wonder why we have that so frequently in our field?

It's awesome that his student's don't do that... But there are plenty of bellydance teachers who have managed not to produce any Suzie Nippletassels.

And the martial arts world is just as full of 6-week wonders as the bellydance world. There plenty of people opening Samurai Bob's Bad-Ass Karate Academy out of their basement when they aren't ready to teach, teaching supposed "MMA fighting" who haven't actually studied the styles they are mixing, reading a couple of books about Jeet Kun Do and claiming they can fight like Bruce Lee. This problem is not unique to bellydance.

Originally Posted by antimony

It's awesome that his student's don't do that... But there are plenty of bellydance teachers who have managed not to produce any Suzie Nippletassels.

And the martial arts world is just as full of 6-week wonders as the bellydance world. There plenty of people opening Samurai Bob's Bad-Ass Karate Academy out of their basement when they aren't ready to teach, teaching supposed "MMA fighting" who haven't actually studied the styles they are mixing, reading a couple of books about Jeet Kun Do and claiming they can fight like Bruce Lee. This problem is not unique to bellydance.

Excellent point (i'd forgotten about MMA...heh.). I think it's just more "in my face" because I see his classes 3 times a week and am mystified by how amazing his students are...no one ever walks in claiming to be more than they are because, well, i think they'd get their bum handed to them on a platter. but when i think about it, I'm pretty lucky too - in my classes whenever I get the "I've only danced for a month but I'm performing and want to know how to do better" I do my best to help out but, usually, when they see the real world of bellydance they run for the hills.

real world = needing to have multiple expensive costumes, losing gigs if you don't have nice technique, having to buy music, videos, etc, needing the support of the local community, not enough gigs here to try to make a living, etc.

I *will* say that people performing before they're ready is, to me, not anywhere near as bad as someone teaching before they're ready. ::ducks flames:: I'd rather not see totally inexperienced people promoting themselves for hire just like the pros, of course, but the teaching thing really bothers me. I understand that in both ways you're representing the art to the public, but in the latter case I find it reprehensible when someone is promoting themselves as super knowledgable to impressionable learners. to me, that just perpetuates the cycle.

I also used to be involved in martial arts and I think something that's also very different is that people expect to be picked on. We were yelled at and made to do pushups and worked till we wanted to cry, but no one ever complained. Little boys, granndmothers, teenage girls, grown men - we were all treated the same and none of us was coddled.

Can you imagine the bellydance instructor who made the gossiping students do pushups or yelled to push them to a broader range of movement? She'd have no students because everyone would think her mean.

In a (good) way I think martial arts humbles its students b/c people expect it to. People who take bellydance just for fun won't put up with so-called mean teachers. I take classes with two "mean" teachers and they seem sweet as pie when I think about my boxing coach screaming in my face while he counted off knuckle pushups.

I was training at the time to start in the ametuer circuit, so my coach kicked my ass daily. It's all well and good if you just want to pick up some moves and jam out at home, but if one wants to go pro, someone (or multiple someones) should be kicking her ass.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I think it's again how things are presented. Belly dance is presented as being easy.

From what my friend (who is some kind of black belt) has explained to me, also there is kind of a mentorship thing with his students and him. For instance, he has them all sit down at the end to talk about what they learned, what they're struggling with, etc.

I think also sometimes new things are dismissed and met with skepticism until they're proved to be good ideas.

*a side note, my dad worked in the older printing business which used the term:
jour·ney·man (jûrn-mn)
n.
1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.


Even in the AKC dog showing world, there used to be an apprentice handler, that then became a "professional." Now, if one gets paid, one is considered "professional."

As chefs say "presentation is everything." Indigostars hits on it with the mentorship relationship. It is about respect for someone who knows more than you. The apprentice-master relationship, I think of that as more individual than class based which probably is why the respect is stronger with individuals.

If the class is constantly advertised as "fun exercise" then does it detract from portraying it as a serious art form? I'm probably going to get daggers flung at me but I think sometimes we want it both ways. Would you take ballet as a "fun exercise?"

(sorry for the long post, I'll go back to my student cubby hole now.w.:)

Originally Posted by dragonfly

*

If the class is constantly advertised as "fun exercise" then does it detract from portraying it as a serious art form? I'm probably going to get daggers flung at me but I think sometimes we want it both ways. Would you take ballet as a "fun exercise?"

I took ballet as "fun exercise"! Never had a single delusion about ever performing it profesionally, never would sign up for any class that ended in a recital, but LOVED the class! Wish I had time to still take it, as a fun exercise.

One of my ballet teachers, Janina Bove, used to say: "The difference between the professional and the pedestrian is attention to detail."
That about sums it up for me.